The latest CBO report says the stimulus saved or created 1.4 to 3.3 million jobs*

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nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Tell me where I'm going wrong.


The point of the stimulus was job creation.

No jobs were created, instead more jobs were lost.

Seeing this, the administration refused to admit defeat and instead moved the goal posts. Their message was no longer that the stimulus will create jobs, rather it just saved some.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
Tell me where I'm going wrong.


The point of the stimulus was job creation.

No jobs were created, instead more jobs were lost.

Seeing this, the administration refused to admit defeat and instead moved the goal posts. Their message was no longer that the stimulus will create jobs, rather it just saved some.

That's basically the strategy. Playing on the notion that it is hard if not impossible to disprove a negative, they'll keep saying, "Things would have been much worse", and hope we all buy it.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
And LOL at your 'plan' to sit on $100k because you're 'skeered'.

Now, what I really want to know: What kind of small business are you going to invest in/own where you fear government meddling? Paranoid, much?




--

I know a lot of business owners, almost all of whom are considered "rich" and most of whom I consider to be actually rich, and they are all sitting on their capital. I guess there is a chance that they are wrong and you are right but I do know that none of them got rich because they were dumb with their capital. For the first time I can ever recall I am hearing rich folk bitch about having too much "cash", they don't want to lock it up in long term risk free investments, short term has virtually no return, so they are literally leaving it sit in multiple banks. Hence the bitching part, they used to invest it in someway or another and didn't need to worry about FDIC limits. I do get a good chuckle out of it though "boo friggen hoo, you have too much money. Tell ya what, give it to me and I promise you won't have to worry about juggling bank accounts".

Regardless, at the end of the day they are sitting on their capital that they normally would be investing in their companies, the market, other companies, etc... They really are scared shitless of losing it and/or the risk/reward is not within limits that they are willing to take.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Yes, practically all stimulus(stimuli?)are funded by Debt. Economic stagnation and/or shrinkage is far worse than Debt.

So the government pumps money into the economy through increased spending. At the cost of an increased deficit. This deficit spending still has to be financed somehow. This is done by importing money from abroad. This automatically reduces demand in other areas... basically nullifying the "stimulus" we experience. This stimulus deficit spending does not create real purchasing power so it does not increase aggregate demand that makes the economy grow. What we are left with is debt... which will burden future economies.


Here is a good read...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Re...t-Spending-Does-Not-Stimulate-Economic-Growth
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
Another person who seems to be of the mindset, "Whatever money is spent on anything, it's good, because it's stimulus."

Businesses aren't spending (hiring, expanding), because they feel there is too much risk and uncertainty due to continuous government intervention, fear of rising tax rates, uncontrolled government debt, inflation, etc. This is not my opinion, it is fact, supported in just about every study and poll of business owners across America. You can argue if you want, but you'll be "typing a whole lotta nuthin".

Throwing money at a problem isn't a solution unless it is done smartly, and is backed up by appropriate policy. What the government has done is thrown *massive* amounts of money at a problem in a semi-blind fashion, while ramming through legislation that was never even read before it was signed into law. Then they turn around and argue for months about whether or not to let tax cuts expire, they keep housing prices artificially inflated, and run up massive debt with seemingly no regard for paying it off... all the while they tour the country telling everyone how great things are.

Uncertainty is the enemy of growth, and the government is in the business of uncertainty right now. If we had a leader who had any understanding how business works, we might be a little better off.

Incorrect.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
So the government pumps money into the economy through increased spending. At the cost of an increased deficit. This deficit spending still has to be financed somehow. This is done by importing money from abroad. This automatically reduces demand in other areas... basically nullifying the "stimulus" we experience. This stimulus deficit spending does not create real purchasing power so it does not increase aggregate demand that makes the economy grow. What we are left with is debt... which will burden future economies.


Here is a good read...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Re...t-Spending-Does-Not-Stimulate-Economic-Growth

Incorrect. It increases the flow of Money through the Economy.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
Tell me where I'm going wrong.


The point of the stimulus was job creation.

No jobs were created, instead more jobs were lost.

Seeing this, the administration refused to admit defeat and instead moved the goal posts. Their message was no longer that the stimulus will create jobs, rather it just saved some.

That's where you went wrong. The point is to maintain Economic Activity.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,960
140
106
no real jobs. No real home sales.

August 25, 2010 7:18:42 AM

WASHINGTON (AP) - Sales of new homes dropped sharply last month to the slowest pace on record, the latest sign that the economic recovery is fading.

The Commerce Department says new home sales fell 12.4 percent in July from a month earlier to a seasonally adjusted annual sales pace of 276,600. That was the slowest pace on records dating back to 1963.
 

JoshGuru7

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2001
1,020
0
0
You just typed a whole lotta nuthin. When the Economy is depressed, Consumers are not spending, Businesses are not spending, you Stimulate. First you lower Interest Rates, but if that doesn't work, which it didn't, then you Spend borrowed Money.
What led you to believe That Grossly Oversimplifying Keynesian Economics was an appropriate response to my comment about the real cost of stimulus funds? "Bananas" would have been an equally topical reply and a lot more concise.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Tell me where I'm going wrong.


The point of the stimulus was job creation.

No jobs were created, instead more jobs were lost.

Seeing this, the administration refused to admit defeat and instead moved the goal posts. Their message was no longer that the stimulus will create jobs, rather it just saved some.

Dude. I simplified it for you a few weeks ago, and you still don't understand that just because unemployment went up doesn't mean the stimulus didn't create jobs? Are you just stupid or what?
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Dude. I simplified it for you a few weeks ago, and you still don't understand that just because unemployment went up doesn't mean the stimulus didn't create jobs? Are you just stupid or what?

I forgot, it "saved" jobs. What a fucking cop-out. At best, the stimulus temporarily saved some jobs. What happens when stimulus money runs out? You really think the stimulus permanantly created or saved jobs?

Are you this much of a shit-eating waste of skin to understand this?
 

JoshGuru7

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2001
1,020
0
0
Dude. I simplified it for you a few weeks ago, and you still don't understand that just because unemployment went up doesn't mean the stimulus didn't create jobs? Are you just stupid or what?
While you would clearly expect any significant increase in government spending to have a positive short term effect, part of what I find interesting about macro is the inability to do controlled experiments. 1.4 to 3.3 is a large spread, but far narrower than I think reflects reality because the first thing we do is get rid of things that are difficult to quantify. -1 to 6 is probably a much better estimate when you consider stuff like consumer confidence and reinvestment shares.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
I forgot, it "saved" jobs. What a fucking cop-out. At best, the stimulus temporarily saved some jobs. What happens when stimulus money runs out? You really think the stimulus permanantly created or saved jobs?

Are you this much of a shit-eating waste of skin to understand this?

What I explained to you before is that you can create (or save) jobs while more jobs are being lost elsewhere in the economy.

If a wildfire is expanding would you say that the firefighters aren't fighting fires?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
What led you to believe That Grossly Oversimplifying Keynesian Economics was an appropriate response to my comment about the real cost of stimulus funds? "Bananas" would have been an equally topical reply and a lot more concise.

I prefer "Fail", but thanks for the tip.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
What I explained to you before is that you can create (or save) jobs while more jobs are being lost elsewhere in the economy.

If a wildfire is expanding would you say that the firefighters aren't fighting fires?

And you didnt answer my question about what happens to these "saved" jobs when stimulus funds run out
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
-snip-
Business and Consumers are not borrowing, so Public borrowing is not taking anything away from them.

That's questionable.

Government borrowing is sucking up all the money, and as many predicted the result is business loans are hard to come by. That's why I have suggested elsewhere we need to mobilize the SBA to get more loans out there.

Fern
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
And you didnt answer my question about what happens to these "saved" jobs when stimulus funds run out

Good point, we need to expand the stimulus so local governments and contractors don't run out of money before the economy recovers...

Similarly we should keep giving the firefighters more water so they can continue to fight the wildfire.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
That's questionable.

Government borrowing is sucking up all the money, and as many predicted the result is business loans are hard to come by. That's why I have suggested elsewhere we need to mobilize the SBA to get more loans out there.

Fern

It's not questionable. It's Fact.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,225
5,801
126
"Through" is the correct term, from them to us and then from us back to them and then we still owe them the original loan plus interest.

No one said there's no downside. It's just better that way in the long run compared to doing nothing.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,205
10,865
136
I forgot, it "saved" jobs. What a fucking cop-out. At best, the stimulus temporarily saved some jobs. What happens when stimulus money runs out? You really think the stimulus permanantly created or saved jobs?

Are you this much of a shit-eating waste of skin to understand this?

The pupose of any kind of stimulus isn't to create permanent jobs but to keep the economy from total free fall. Where did anyone supporting the stimulus say this would create permanent jobs.

You clowns just don't get it.

It looks like your guys are going to get in. Let's see how fucked up things are really going to get when we attack the deficit during a recession/depression.

Bunch of dumb F's. I give up.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
The pupose of any kind of stimulus isn't to create permanent jobs but to keep the economy from total free fall. Where did anyone supporting the stimulus say this would create permanent jobs.

You clowns just don't get it.

It looks like your guys are going to get in. Let's see how fucked up things are really going to get when we attack the deficit during a recession/depression.

Bunch of dumb F's. I give up.

But to what end?

Is the point to temporarily (and at great expense) prop things up till businesses ride in to save us?

Just like governments', businesses get hamered by a recession too. It strikes me as having an awful lot of confidence, whether intentionally or not, in (small) businesses to rely on their rescuing us without giving them the help to do so.

Fern