The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[buckshot24]

I've shown why I think this to be true, its now up to you to either show why I'm wrong, admit that you dont have an argument or put me on "the list".

Say it plainly then, why does known=not free? I haven't seen any attempt at a justification, maybe I'm wrong.

Its just the fact that the choices are known. It doesn't matter if the knowledge is acted upon and it doesn't matter if its god or a hamster that knows it. The choices are fixed just by the fact that that knowledge is available or even knowable.

Not free is another way to say coerced or forced. But if nothing is forcing or coercing certain decisions then you can in no way say they aren't free choice decisions.

The choices ARE fixed but that doesn't make them not free. This is why I am asking over and over again to show why known=not free.

 

[soulcougher73]

Say it plainly then, why does known=not free? I haven't seen any attempt at a justification, maybe I'm wrong.
Not free is another way to say coerced or forced. But if nothing is forcing or coercing certain decisions then you can in no way say they aren't free choice decisions.

The choices ARE fixed but that doesn't make them not free. This is why I am asking over and over again to show why known=not free.

Its been shown to you a million times by many posters. Its not our fault you cant figure it out. You are blinded by your faith and cant see reason/logic when it slaps you in the face.

 

[WelshBloke]

Say it plainly then, why does known=not free? I haven't seen any attempt at a justification, maybe I'm wrong.
Not free is another way to say coerced or forced. But if nothing is forcing or coercing certain decisions then you can in no way say they aren't free choice decisions.

Its also another way to say that the choice is not free. If I meant coerced or forced I'd have said coerced or forced.

Are the characters in a book coerced or forced to follow the plot? Are they free to deviate from it?

The choices ARE fixed but that doesn't make them not free.

Explain how those two things can be valid. Better still give me an example of a free choice thats fixed.

This is why I am asking over and over again to show why known=not free.

Because if an outcome is fixed there is no choice. There may be an illusion of choice where the participant thinks hes making his own choices but actually hes just following a preordained path.

 

[MongGrel]

The choices ARE fixed but that doesn't make them not free. This is why I am asking over and over again to show why known=not free.

Twit.

More Spam inbound I'm sure.

 

[buckshot24]

Its also another way to say that the choice is not free. If I meant coerced or forced I'd have said coerced or forced.

You do mean coerced or forced since you keep saying decisions aren't free.

Are the characters in a book coerced or forced to follow the plot? Are they free to deviate from it?

The author of the book forces their decisions upon them. You've said God isn't doing anything in your scenario. This analogy doesn't work.

Explain how those two things can be valid. Better still give me an example of a free choice thats fixed.

I'm still waiting on you to make an argument as to why known=not free.

Because if an outcome is fixed there is no choice. There may be an illusion of choice where the participant thinks hes making his own choices but actually hes just following a preordained path.

Asserting with different words isn't justification for your assertion.

Is God forcing choices on us or not?

 

[JEDIYoda]

If you don't have anything relevant to add, fuck off.

relevant in whose eyes?? Your problem is you like to play word games....

Again you're totally missing the point. God doesn't have to act on the knowledge at all. As long as the outcome is known it is fixed, it precludes all other outcomes.
This isnt about god making you do stuff, this is about the logistical impossibility of prior knowledge and free will.

Not true at all!! That's just playing with words.......I am sorry that you have such a hard time understanding that just because something is known does not mean that it is fixed....

 

[soulcougher73]

Not true at all!! That's just playing with words.......I am sorry that you have such a hard time understanding that just because something is known does not mean that it is fixed....

Do you even think bro?

 

[JEDIYoda]

The choices are fixed just by the fact that that knowledge is available or even knowable.

That pure stupidity!! The word "Fixed" implies that somebody or something had something to do with the outcome of what already is known!!

If you are an atheist your knowledge of freewill is zilch!!

It is very possible to know the outcome ahead of time!! That does not mean that particular knowledge of lets say future events are fixed!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Do you even think bro?

so you resort to stupid questions??
To know ahead what is going to happen does not mean that it was fixed or that you still did not have a choice...are all atheists ignorant??

 

[WelshBloke]

Not true at all!! That's just playing with words......

Its called using language to explain your point. You should try it some time.

That pure stupidity!! The word "Fixed" implies that somebody or something had something to do with the outcome of what already is known!!

Ah. Maybe not then. Probably better you stick to the vacuous posts youre more comfortable with.

 

[WelshBloke]

You do mean coerced or forced since you keep saying decisions aren't free.

Neither actually.

The author of the book forces their decisions upon them. You've said God isn't doing anything in your scenario. This analogy doesn't work.

It isnt an analogy, its an example of a predestined path. I'm not suggesting that god is the author.

I'm still waiting on you to make an argument as to why known=not free.
Asserting with different words isn't justification for your assertion.

I'm waiting on you to either refute anything I've said or back up anything that you've said. You keep saying I'm just making assertions but youre not taking them apart at all. If they are that flimsy why not get in there and pull some apart?

Is God forcing choices on us or not?

For the purposes of this discussion?
No. Its the presence of the knowledge. Its not a question of that entity forcing choices on anyone. I really dont know where youve got that from in my posts. Its the fact that if absolute knowledge exists about a decision prior to that decision being made then that decision cant be free. It doesnt matter if its god, you, me or my hamster that has the knowledge.

 

[buckshot24]

Neither actually.

How could something be not free then? What is forcing anybody to do what is known in that case? What is creating the illusion of choice in this scenario? If nothing is then the choices are 100% free.

It isnt an analogy, its an example of a predestined path. I'm not suggesting that god is the author.

I won't quibble about what it is but it fails no matter what you call it. The author picks all of the character's choices and you've said God isn't doing anything in your scenario.

I'm waiting on you to either refute anything I've said or back up anything that you've said. You keep saying I'm just making assertions but youre not taking them apart at all. If they are that flimsy why not get in there and pull some apart?

You realize I don't need to take apart your assertions, right? You need to support your assertions. If I assert you beat your wife (or anybody else) it isn't up to you to prove your innocence. It is up to me to prove your guilt.
The only thing I've seen you say is that known=not free without justifying it.
For the purposes of this discussion?

No. Its the presence of the knowledge. Its not a question of that entity forcing choices on anyone. I really dont know where youve got that from in my posts. Its the fact that if absolute knowledge exists about a decision prior to that decision being made then that decision cant be free. It doesnt matter if its god, you, me or my hamster that has the knowledge.

Again, the assumption that known=not free. The problem is you can't prove that known=not free so you keep saying it in different ways.

If something is not free then something/one is FORCING them to pick a certain way. There is no way around this. What/who is forcing decisions since you are asserting they cannot be free?

 

[bshole]

According to the Bible, God is not omniscient nor omnipotent.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

So God was SURPRISED and SADDENED that man turned out exactly like he knew they would? Poor helpless God was incapable of creating something that would turn out like he wanted. Poor God with severe memory loss FORGETS that his creation will turn out bad. Hurp-a-durp.

 

[buckshot24]

According to the Bible, God is not omniscient nor omnipotent.



So God was SURPRISED and SADDENED that man turned out exactly like he knew they would? Poor helpless God was incapable of creating something that would turn out like he wanted. Poor God with severe memory loss FORGETS that his creation will turn out bad. Hurp-a-durp.

When did you become a hack? Was it gradual or did it come on all at once?

 

[MongGrel]

When did you become a hack? Was it gradual or did it come on all at once?

I guess you ran away from the other thread.

Probably just bouncing back and forth more likely I guess.

 

[bshole]

When did you become a hack? Was it gradual or did it come on all at once?

Are you unaware that verses in the Bible like the one I quoted cause Christians to lose their faith? Are you aware that the number one cited reason for people leaving the Christian faith is reading the Bible? Think about it.

How can you read the verse I quoted without coming to the conclusion that God is neither omniscient not omnipotent? Omniscience is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with surprise and repentance, it is impossible by definition. Omnipotence is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with an inability to create what you want, it is impossible by definition. I have no idea how you can read that verse and retain your illusions as to God's capabilities.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Regret is a more or less painful cognitive and emotional state of feeling sorry for misfortunes, limitations, losses, transgressions, shortcomings, or mistakes. It is an experience of felt-reason or reasoned-emotion. The regretted matters may be sins of commission as well as sins of omission; they may range from the voluntary to the uncontrollable and accidental; they may be actually executed deeds or entirely mental ones committed by oneself or by another person or group; they may be moral or legal transgressions or morally and legally neutral.

 

[buckshot24]

Are you unaware that verses in the Bible like the one I quoted cause Christians to lose their faith? Are you aware that the number one cited reason for people leaving the Christian faith is reading the Bible? Think about it.

How can you read the verse I quoted without coming to the conclusion that God is neither omniscient not omnipotent? Omniscience is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with surprise and repentance, it is impossible by definition. Omnipotence is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with an inability to create what you want, it is impossible by definition. I have no idea how you can read that verse and retain your illusions as to God's capabilities.

First, being grieved about something doesn't mean you didn't know it was coming. Knowing grandma is going to die doesn't mean you're not going to grieve. I don't see "surprise" in the text. (why I called you a hack).

Having enough power isn't sufficient to do something.

First, you claimed that God COMMANDED Japheth to sacrifice his daughter when that was nowhere to be found in the text. (hackery).

Now you claim that God was surprised by what happened, no where to be found in the text (hackery).

What further hackery are you going to pleasure me with next?

 

[Paratus]

Are you unaware that verses in the Bible like the one I quoted cause Christians to lose their faith? Are you aware that the number one cited reason for people leaving the Christian faith is reading the Bible? Think about it.

How can you read the verse I quoted without coming to the conclusion that God is neither omniscient not omnipotent? Omniscience is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with surprise and repentance, it is impossible by definition. Omnipotence is MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE with an inability to create what you want, it is impossible by definition. I have no idea how you can read that verse and retain your illusions as to God's capabilities.

It was a valiant effort but I don't think you'll get him to even consider your position regardless of how persuasive your argument.

 

[bshole]

First, being grieved about something doesn't mean you didn't know it was coming. Knowing grandma is going to die doesn't mean you're not going to grieve. I don't see "surprise" in the text. (why I called you a hack).

Having enough power isn't sufficient to do something.

First, you claimed that God COMMANDED Japheth to sacrifice his daughter when that was nowhere to be found in the text. (hackery).

Now you claim that God was surprised by what happened, no where to be found in the text (hackery).

What further hackery are you going to pleasure me with next?

Well lets get to it:

Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.

An omniscient God would have known what he was going to do APRIORI.

Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from their evil ways. Then I will relent and not inflict on them the disaster I was planning because of the evil they have done.

Perhaps? An omniscient God would know already.

Then the Lord said, “If they do not believe you or pay attention to the first sign, they may believe the second. 9 But if they do not believe these two signs or listen to you, take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground. The water you take from the river will become blood on the ground.”

Ok, so God doesn't KNOW what they will pay attention to. Clearly not omniscient.

During the reign of King Josiah, the Lord said to me, “Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

God thought she would do one thing but she did something different. Clearly not omniscient.

There are lots more things like this in the Bible that prove my point. It is obvious that God is not omniscient and the Bible proves it. The question is where are you getting the idea that he is omniscient?

PRO-TIP: Google "god surprised verses" and you can find more of them for yourself.

 

[buckshot24]

Well lets get to it:

There is no way I'm going to go all over the bible with you when I challenge you on a text you've already misrepresented and you ignore it. Genesis 6 doesn't contain any surprise on God's part. God doesn't command Japheth to sacrifice his daughter.

 

[Victorian Gray]

 

[buckshot24]

list

 

[Victorian Gray]

list

You think anyone gives a damn?

 

[bshole]

And to top it off, God does interfere with free will to ENSURE that his creations will go to hell.

God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

All this gnashing of teeth about man's free will is utter bullshit. God says right there in his book that he will prevent those he chooses for hell from believing.

 

[buckshot24]

And to top it off, God does interfere with free will to ENSURE that his creations will go to hell.





All this gnashing of teeth about man's free will is utter bullshit. God says right there in his book that he will prevent those he chooses for hell from believing.

Quit misrepresenting the bible.