The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[buckshot24]

In a sense, he's right. All free-will is, is the liberty to choose between one option and another.

Knowing the outcome doesn't inhibit the freedom to choose.

In my opinion they are either lying or incompetent.

 

[Retro Rob]

In my opinion they are either lying or incompetent.

Perhaps both. If you and I are driving in a car together, and I know what route you're going to take to get to our destination, how does me knowing that negate the liberty you have to take that route?

Tomorrow, you can take another route, and I can even know that in advance. Still, you have the freedom.

Conversely, if I am holding you prisoner, and I know what you're going to eat everyday because that's all that's available, then you don't have free-will as regards what you eat.

 

[Retro Rob]

I guess this whole thing makes sense to me because I don't believe in predestination.

 

[buckshot24]

I guess this whole thing makes sense to me because I don't believe in predestination.

Do you mean you're not Calvinist?

 

[Retro Rob]

In my opinion they are either lying or incompetent.

I would also say this, though: Simply knowing what you would do before you do it doesn't interfere with your free-will on a personal level.

However, deliberately setting you on a path to do something (predestination - like a computer program written to perform a certain task) is definitely taking away your free will, making it more of an illusion if one is aware of the concept.

In this latter scenario, God becomes self-contradictory only because God punishes mankind for the "choices" they make. How can he rightly punish you for doing something that he basically "programmed" you to do?

Programmed things are not aware of "free-will". A line of code isn't aware that it can choose not to perform the task for which it was written. Humans are aware, at least, of the idea that they can do whatever they want.

I am of the belief that we have free-will because we are aware of it.

 

[Retro Rob]

Do you mean you're not Calvinist?

Think about this for a second: If predestination was real, then the "Great Commission" would be pointless.

Why? Because those who are Christian are so because they were predestined to be, and those who are not, aren't because they were predestined to be. This is what Christians say to support the doctrine of predestination. Well, at least Martin Luther believed each then-Muslim was "doomed", so preaching to them was effectively moot.

Would it makes sense to "preach", then, if each person is what they're "predestined" to be?

 

[buckshot24]

Think about this for a second: If predestination was real, then the "Great Commission" would be pointless.

I'm not a Calvinist or I probably wouldn't have spent pages arguing the way I have. Ironically I think Calvinism was created by Christians who couldn't grasp, what I find to be, simple logic.

 

[bshole]

How can something be known and free? The same way our past choices can be known and free. The fact that we've experienced those choices has absolutely no bearing on the matter. God isn't us and we aren't God.

So the question really is, why do you insist on holding to the view that a known choice equals an un-free choice?

Why does God continue to create humans knowing BEFORE he creates them that they will end up in the hell? Why invent a system that sends the vast majority of his creations to unimaginable torment without end? There must be a reason other than the enjoyment he gets watching the suffering of others. The Christian God appears to be the type of being who would get much enjoyment with a magnifying glass, a clear sunny day and a big pile of ants.

And here is the Christian version of heaven:

Ultimately, though—and this where the best part comes in—we will spend eternity doing what the heavenly creatures around God’s throne are doing right now, serving Him and shouting “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord Almighty, the whole earth is full of His glory!” till our lungs give out.

Groveling at his feet forever? Perhaps telling God how great he is would be fun for the first billion years but how in the heck could that continue to be interesting forever?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You don't set the rules of the discussion.

Fuck you, I don't. We're discussing the consequences of certain theistic beliefs. My beliefs about free will are irrelevant to deciding what those consequences are.

If you're participating, what you believe DOES have something to do with it.

And you only think that because you're an idiot.

If you don't like answering questions about your beliefs, kick rocks.

If you don't have anything relevant to add, fuck off.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Perhaps both. If you and I are driving in a car together, and I know what route you're going to take to get to our destination, how does me knowing that negate the liberty you have to take that route?

Tomorrow, you can take another route, and I can even know that in advance. Still, you have the freedom.

Conversely, if I am holding you prisoner, and I know what you're going to eat everyday because that's all that's available, then you don't have free-will as regards what you eat.

This is not the same kind of knowledge that God allegedly has. His knowledge is allegedly infallible. It isn't that he's "virtually certain." He has seen the event take place already. There can be no chance of any deviation from his knowledge. The same cannot be said of your examples of "knowledge" above.

The problem here is that you don't know jack shit about epistemology.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Fuck you, I don't. We're discussing the consequences of certain theistic beliefs. My beliefs about free will are irrelevant to deciding what those consequences are.


And you only think that because you're an idiot.


If you don't have anything relevant to add, fuck off.

....Ah the joys of atheism....

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How can something be known and free? The same way our past choices can be known and free. The fact that we've experienced those choices has absolutely no bearing on the matter. God isn't us and we aren't God.

You seem to be saying that even though I already "chose" to have ham for breakfast yesterday, I am still free to choose jam yesterday. The event is already over and in the past -- that's how I know what my "choice" was -- but you're saying that I'm still free to choose something different. You're going to have to explain how that works.

So the question really is, why do you insist on holding to the view that a known choice equals an un-free choice?

If I know that I "chose" ham yesterday, how can I still be free to "choose" jam at that moment instead?

 

[MagickMan]

Not even close bud lol so much fail

So, exactly when did you become one of the douchebags around here? Oh well, I'll just treat you like the others.

 

[MagickMan]

Well firstly god presumably has slightly more specific knowledge in that he should know that I will die in one of one way. It's fairly obvious then how that precludes free will, particularly when we aren't talking about prior knowledge of one instance but prior knowledge of every instance of your existence.

This is all presumption, if you can point this out directly in scripture that would help.

 

[sandorski]

Assuming that there is a creator god that made this Universe:

1) If before creating the Universe that god knew every thing of what would occur in that universe and had choice to create it differently, then we have no Free Will. That god has already made our choices for us

2) If that god had no foreknowledge of what would occur in the universe it would create, but would know after completing the creation, then we would still have Free Will, because that god did not choose our actions.

3) If that god does not know the future, then we have Free Will

Biblically speaking 2 and 3 seems impossible. Numerous times the biblical character of god acts surprised and experiences emotions that would not happen if it was aware of what would happen beforehand. Also, a good portion of the Bible is devoted to describing events that are allegedly going to occur in the future, meaning that god is claimed to know the future. 2 and 3 are clearly in contradiction with each other.

Unless someone can come up with some other premises I haven't considered, I suggest that Free Will and the Biblical god can not coexist.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Assuming that there is a creator god that made this Universe:

1) If before creating the Universe that god knew every thing of what would occur in that universe and had choice to create it differently, then we have no Free Will. That god has already made our choices for us <--- that makes no sense at all, in fact its plain stupid!! Just because God knows what is going to happen does NOT mean that he made the choice or will manipulate things...you really need to think about what you just said!!


2) If that god had no foreknowledge of what would occur in the universe it would create, but would know after completing the creation, then we would still have Free Will, because that god did not choose our actions. <-- again what you just said applies to #1 -- God had for knowledge but in no way manipulated things!!


3) If that god does not know the future, then we have Free Will <that is not true at all! In fact that makes no sense........just because God knows the future does not mean that you were programed in a certain way!! All it means is that he knows!


Biblically speaking 2 and 3 seems impossible. Numerous times the biblical character of god acts surprised and experiences emotions that would not happen if it was aware of what would happen beforehand. Also, a good portion of the Bible is devoted to describing events that are allegedly going to occur in the future, meaning that god is claimed to know the future. 2 and 3 are clearly in contradiction with each other. <-- you have no clue at all....name the 3 that YTOU claim contradict each other -- this ought to be good...

Unless someone can come up with some other premises I haven't considered, I suggest that Free Will and the Biblical god can not coexist.

You suggest wrong!!

 

[MagickMan]

Saying the argument fails isn't showing that the argument fails, so you have failed.

No, it's a statement of fact, dumbass. You haven't proven anything. This is probably due to the fact that you don't understand the religion enough to properly criticize it.

Your smack talk would carry more weight if your arguments weren't so weak, Mr. Relativistic Quantum Mechanics.

Well, Mr Secondary School Logic. Your arguments would carry more weight if you'd actually studied religion, and specifically Christianity, at all. Since you're such a fucking know-it-all, you can't admit you don't understand something so far "beneath" you, such as Apologetics. So you end up sounding like a retard when you're bashing it.

If you know the one way, then there is no probability of any others.

Incorrect. The argument, and Jesus even said this himself, is that God knows All ways.

 

[MagickMan]

Assuming that there is a creator god that made this Universe:

1) If before creating the Universe that god knew every thing of what would occur in that universe and had choice to create it differently, then we have no Free Will. That god has already made our choices for us

2) If that god had no foreknowledge of what would occur in the universe it would create, but would know after completing the creation, then we would still have Free Will, because that god did not choose our actions.

3) If that god does not know the future, then we have Free Will

Biblically speaking 2 and 3 seems impossible. Numerous times the biblical character of god acts surprised and experiences emotions that would not happen if it was aware of what would happen beforehand. Also, a good portion of the Bible is devoted to describing events that are allegedly going to occur in the future, meaning that god is claimed to know the future. 2 and 3 are clearly in contradiction with each other.

Unless someone can come up with some other premises I haven't considered, I suggest that Free Will and the Biblical god can not coexist.

You seem to believe that God would be stacking the deck, but there's no evidence in the Bible or the Torah to suggest this.

If you could view future probability as easily as you remember the past, but you don't tell anyone what their future entails, does that mean everyone else's free will would be gone?

 

[MagickMan]

Fuck you, I don't. We're discussing the consequences of certain theistic beliefs. My beliefs about free will are irrelevant to deciding what those consequences are.

Narcissism.

And you only think that because you're an idiot.

Intolerance.

If you don't have anything relevant to add, fuck off.

Exclusion.

....Ah the joys of atheism....

Nah, they're the joys of megalomania, a trait too commonly found in the garden variety Progressive Academic.

 

[WelshBloke]

Those definitions are irrelevant to the discussion. I don't disagree with them.

OK then explain how they dont apply then.

No, you make the case that free=unknown. You can't.

If an outcome is known then how can the outcome be anything but the known outcome?
If outcome=A then outcome =/= B

Your turn now. You can now explain how if it is absolutely known that something will occur theres a possibility that something else would occur.

I hate tea. Establish your bald assertion that free=unknown.

So substitute supper/lunch/dinner/yourmealofchoice but stop dodging the issue, its obvious that you're doing it and doesn't do your argument any favours.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt but its becoming clear that you're just a hack. You complain about an attribute of God then I can't use other attributes of God to explain them. This is grade A hackery.

Actually I've given you much leeway in not explaining any of your arguments, I've also been polite to you throughout this. I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

Using the "well god moves in mysterious ways" or "god is unknowable" therefore my argument is correct is a total cop out. Its also admitting that there is no logic at all in your argument. Its fine if you want to base your belief just on faith but there's no point in trying to support that belief in a debate.

Put up or shut up. PROVE that free=unknown or admit you're just throwing assertions around like free candy.

If an outcome is known then how can the outcome be anything but the known outcome?
If outcome=A then outcome =/= B

Your turn now. You can now explain how if it is absolutely known that something will occur theres a possibility that something else would occur.

 

[WelshBloke]

This is all presumption, if you can point this out directly in scripture that would help.

What it says in the scripture doesnt really matter.

Either god is omnipotent or not (with the obvious effect on free will).

If god isnt omnipotent it solves a lot of logical problems in the Christian faith but I'm not sure that many Christians would give up their all knowing, all seeing god for one of more limited abilities.

 

[WelshBloke]

Just because God knows what is going to happen does NOT mean that he made the choice or will manipulate things...you really need to think about what you just said!!

You suggest wrong!!

Again you're totally missing the point. God doesn't have to act on the knowledge at all. As long as the outcome is known it is fixed, it precludes all other outcomes.
This isnt about god making you do stuff, this is about the logistical impossibility of prior knowledge and free will.

 

[Moonbeam]

I get the feeling that when it comes to what is illogical to people who do not believe in God regarding statements about His nature is perfectly acceptable as possible to people who do believe in Him. It almost seems as if faith in something creates a whole different way of experiencing reality. This would mean, of course, or should I say, in the universe I live in, that believers and doubters talk past each other and make no headway in communicating the inner experience of their inner realities, but simply go their own ways shaking their respective heads.

I wonder who saw this coming?

 

[Retro Rob]

....Ah the joys of atheism....

This is why he's an atheist, really. Its extremely easy because he doesn't have to answer any questions, as they are evidently the root cause of his headaches over the years.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Nah, they're the joys of megalomania, a trait too commonly found in the garden variety Progressive Academic.

This is why he's an atheist, really. Its extremely easy because he doesn't have to answer any questions, as they are evidently the root cause of his headaches over the years.

That is odd indeed. But Im off to enjoy a good Sunday, peace and blessings to all! ()