The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[buckshot24]

Why would I waste my time on something you already told me has nothing to do with your decision to believe in God?

I thought you might have some integrity and want to support your assertions. I guess not.

 

[shira]

Strawman much?

Question 1: Do you believe that God created the entire universe, including you?

If yes, go to Question 2.

Question 2: Do you believe that God knew from before the moment he created the universe (including you) the behavior of every point of universe (including every detail of your life) for every instant in time from the time of creation through infinity?

If yes, go to Question 3.

Question 3: Do you believe that God had the power to create the universe, including you, different from what he actually created, and that God also knew the behavior of every point of that contingent universe (including every detail of your life) for every instant in time?

If there were any "no" answers, please explain how YOUR god can be both omniscient and omnipotent (which you believe), yet lacked the power to perform 1, 2, or 3.

If yes, then you've conceded that God created you knowing you would live exactly the life you've actually lived, but could have created you to live a different life. So no strawman.

 

[buckshot24]

Question 1: Do you believe that God created the entire universe, including you?

If yes, go to Question 2.

Question 2: Do you believe that God knew from before the moment he created the universe (including you) the behavior of every point of universe (including every detail of your life) for every instant in time from the time of creation through infinity?

If yes, go to Question 3.

Question 3: Do you believe that God had the power to create the universe, including you, different from what he actually created, and that God also knew the behavior of every point of that contingent universe (including every detail of your life) for every instant in time?

If there were any "no" answers, please explain how YOUR god can be both omniscient and omnipotent (which you believe), yet lacked the power to perform 1, 2, or 3.

If yes, then you've conceded that God created you knowing you would live exactly the life you've actually lived, but could have created you to live a different life. So no strawman.

I couldn't see any support for your ridiculous assertion that the origin of life is "pretty well explained".

 

[shira]

I couldn't see any support for your ridiculous assertion that the origin of life is "pretty well explained".

I didn't see any response to my on-topic post. I'm sorry I've shaken your faith in God. But you'll be much better off after you've come to terms with a Godless universe.

 

[bshole]

I didn't see any response to my on-topic post. I'm sorry I've shaken your faith in God. But you'll be much better off after you've come to terms with a Godless universe.

You've only refuted the Christian God which is like shooting fish in a barrel. Refuting a God competely divorced from Christianity is an impossibility.

 

[buckshot24]

I didn't see any response to my on-topic post. I'm sorry I've shaken your faith in God. But you'll be much better off after you've come to terms with a Godless universe.

I'll take this as an admission that you lied about the science about the origin of life.

I'll now answer your questions.

Question 1: Do you believe that God created the entire universe, including you?

Yes

Question 2: Do you believe that God knew from before the moment he created the universe (including you) the behavior of every point of universe (including every detail of your life) for every instant in time from the time of creation through infinity?

Yes

Question 3: Do you believe that God had the power to create the universe, including you, different from what he actually created, and that God also knew the behavior of every point of that contingent universe (including every detail of your life) for every instant in time?

Yes but having the power to do something isn't sufficient to actually want to do it. You have the power to do all sorts of things that you choose not to do. So power isn't enough.

 

[shira]

You've only refuted the Christian God which is like shooting fish in a barrel. Refuting a God competely divorced from Christianity is an impossibility.

I know it is in practice. But if I succeed in demonstrating to those who claim there's a rational basis for their belief that all they really have is an irrational belief with no rational foundation, then I'm happy.

To me, an honest belief in God would go something like, "For me to feel happy, I need to believe that God exists, that He cares about me, and that I can have eternal life beside Him in heaven. That's the sole reason I believe."

 

[WelshBloke]

The choices you have are whatever you choose. God just knows what you will pick.

Thing is gods supposed to have been around for ever yes?

So your "choice" was made the instant that god gained consciousness.

Now what your claiming to have is the illusion of choice.

 

[Moonbeam]

I know it is in practice. But if I succeed in demonstrating to those who claim there's a rational basis for their belief that all they really have is an irrational belief with no rational foundation, then I'm happy.

To me, an honest belief in God would go something like, "For me to feel happy, I need to believe that God exists, that He cares about me, and that I can have eternal life beside Him in heaven. That's the sole reason I believe."

What would an honest disbelief look like? I ask because you have such strange self-centered ideas.

I would say that an honest belief in God would contain no words, especially words about I me and mine but would simply reflect God's existence such that all who have eyes could see. In a room full of sleeping people any awake know who else is awake and the lover and the beloved are one. Drop your silly ideas about God and seek undivided being. One taste and you will know.

 

[shira]

What would an honest disbelief look like? I ask because you have such strange self-centered ideas.

I would say that an honest belief in God would contain no words, especially words about I me and mine but would simply reflect God's existence such that all who have eyes could see. In a room full of sleeping people any awake know who else is awake and the lover and the beloved are one. Drop your silly ideas about God and seek undivided being. One taste and you will know.

An honest disbelief would go something like this:

"I see nothing that can't (at least in theory) be explained by non-supernatural causes. And since I otherwise have no personal need to believe in the supernatural, I don't believe in God."

As to your conception of an "honest belief in God," then no one at all - including you - have an honest belief in God by that standard.

 

[buckshot24]

Thing is gods supposed to have been around for ever yes?

God is eternal, which is different. Our timeline was His creation.

So your "choice" was made the instant that god gained consciousness.

Doesn't this question contradict your first?

Now what your claiming to have is the illusion of choice.

No, I can freely choose whatever I want with God knowing what I will choose. I'm not being forced to do anything.

 

[bshole]

An honest disbelief would go something like this:

"I see nothing that can't (at least in theory) be explained by non-supernatural causes. And since I otherwise have no personal need to believe in the supernatural, I don't believe in God."

As to your conception of an "honest belief in God," then no one at all - including you - have an honest belief in God by that standard.

How could they? God has never interfaced with this world in an objectively measurable way. Every single religion has as much validity as the next and as much as the Easter Bunny in the realm of objective reality, absolute zero. The prevalance of religion just proves the almost overwhelming NEED that man has for a God.

 

[bshole]

God is eternal, which is different. Our timeline was His creation.
Doesn't this question contradict your first?
No, I can freely choose whatever I want with God knowing what I will choose. I'm not being forced to do anything.

Yes you are. You have no free will. If you had free will, that would defy the laws of the physical universe. You have the illusion of free will (we all do) so that should be good enough.

A belief in free will is akin to religious beliefs, since neither complies with the laws of the physical world. One of the basic premises of biology and biochemistry is that biological systems are nothing more than a bag of chemicals that obey chemical and physical laws. Generally, we have no problem with the “bag of chemicals” notion when it comes to bacteria, plants, and similar entities. So why is it so difficult to say the same about humans or other “higher level” species, when we’re all governed by the same laws?

No causal mechanism
As Cashmore explains, the human brain acts at both the conscious level as well as the unconscious. It’s our consciousness that makes us aware of our actions, giving us the sense that we control them, as well. But even without this awareness, our brains can still induce our bodies to act, and studies have indicated that consciousness is something that follows unconscious neural activity. Just because we are often aware of multiple paths to take, that doesn’t mean we actually get to choose one of them based on our own free will. As the ancient Greeks asked, by what mechanism would we be choosing? The physical world is made of causes and effects - “nothing comes from nothing” - but free will, by its very definition, has no physical cause. The Roman philosopher and poet Lucretius, in reference to this problem of free will, noted that the Greek philosophers concluded that atoms "randomly swerve" - the likely source of this movement being the numerous Greek gods.

http://phys.org/news/2010-03-free-illusion-biologist.html

 

[buckshot24]

Yes you are. You have no free will. If you had free will, that would defy the laws of the physical universe. You have the illusion of free will (we all do) so that should be good enough.



http://phys.org/news/2010-03-free-illusion-biologist.html

Would you support locking people up for child molestation or murder? If they had no choice, why?

 

[bshole]

Would you support locking people up for child molestation or murder? If they had no choice, why?

Because they constitute a threat to the rest of society.

 

[buckshot24]

Because they constitute a threat to the rest of society.

Do they deserve the punishment?

 

[realibrad]

Do they deserve the punishment?

Because they have shown they cannot control themselves and as such should not be allowed to inflict further things onto people. While it is unfortunate the individual does not have the ability to control themselves, it does not mean others should have to accept that the individual can do anything to others.

 

[buckshot24]

Because they have shown they cannot control themselves and as such should not be allowed to inflict further things onto people. While it is unfortunate the individual does not have the ability to control themselves, it does not mean others should have to accept that the individual can do anything to others.

I was asking in the context of hard determinism bshole was advocating.

 

[realibrad]

I was asking in the context of hard determinism bshole was advocating.

Then you can make the argument that society is better off not allow those people to damage it. If someone cannot stop themselves from doing something damaging, then society would be less well off.

 

[buckshot24]

Then you can make the argument that society is better off not allow those people to damage it. If someone cannot stop themselves from doing something damaging, then society would be less well off.

But they don't actually deserve the punishment?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

No, I can freely choose whatever I want with God knowing what I will choose. I'm not being forced to do anything.

Repeatedly claiming this while a plain falsification of it sits unrefuted right here in this very thread makes you a blatant liar.

 

[realibrad]

But they don't actually deserve the punishment?

Yes, because the sad reality is that society currently does not have the ability to fix those issues. The damage murderers and rapists cause far outweighs the loss of their freedom.

There was a time when disabled people died because we did not have the ability to take care of them.

If you want a reason, that would be the reason.

 

[shira]

Would you support locking people up for child molestation or murder? If they had no choice, why?

Because, fool, the fact that God made them evil nevertheless means they're actually evil. And protecting society from their evil behavior is totally rational.

Notice also that God has also created a kabuki dance where these these evil people serve in prison, and some are then "rehabilitated" and some are not.

And it is certainly reasonable to ask why the death penalty should ever be used, when God is the actual murderer.

But a point you're missing is that EVERYONE - the victims, the police, the judges, the jurors, the jailers, and the general public - were all pre-ordained by God to feel and think and adjudicate and impose sentences and argue about criminal justice and post on ATPN threads in exactly the way it is all panning out.

So to ask "why" is a totally meaningless question for God-believers like you. Because you already know the answer: God made it this way.

 

[WelshBloke]

God is eternal, which is different. Our timeline was His creation.

For this subject him being around prior to your birth is sufficient.

Doesn't this question contradict your first?

For the purpose of this point, not at all. A discussion on when god gained consciousness would be interesting though. (That also wasnt a question. It was a follow up statement from the first question)

No, I can freely choose whatever I want with God knowing what I will choose. I'm not being forced to do anything.

If god has known that you will always do [XXX] in a situation how can you do [YYY]? You are not freely choosing in that situation, you are following a preordained path.

 

[buckshot24]

Because, fool, the fact that God made them evil nevertheless means they're actually evil. And protecting society from their evil behavior is totally rational.

Please don't insult me as I won't insult you. I'll add you to the list if you need to resort to name calling. The rest of your post was ignored because of the name calling.