The joy of religion - part xxxxxxxxx

[Cerpin Taxt]

Please don't insult me as I won't insult you. I'll add you to the list if you need to resort to name calling. The rest of your post was ignored because of the name calling.

Oh, now isn't THAT convenient? What a piece of shit.

 

[buckshot24]

For this subject him being around prior to your birth is sufficient.

God being outside of our time domain is vital for understanding this.

For the purpose of this point, not at all. A discussion on when god gained consciousness would be interesting though. (That also wasnt a question. It was a follow up statement from the first question)

A contradiction nonetheless.

If god has known that you will always do [XXX] in a situation how can you do [YYY]? You are not freely choosing in that situation, you are following a preordained path.

You CAN do YYY but you WON'T do YYY. If there are two choices you will pick one or the other (excluding neither as an option).

 

[JD50]

God being outside of our time domain is vital for understanding this.
A contradiction nonetheless.
You CAN do YYY but you WON'T do YYY. If there are two choices you will pick one or the other (excluding neither as an option).

This is why people get frustrated with you and resort to name calling. I explained that this is a fallacy yet you're still doing it. This is once again special pleading. You need to provide justification for God being "outside of our time domain" and what that even means.

What's funny is that in the other thread you demand to physically see a process that takes millions of years before you'll believe it. Have you actually seen God? Have you observed him "outside of our time domain?"

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

God being outside of our time domain is vital for understanding this.

First, you'd have to show that the concatenation of words "outside our time domain" makes any sense whatever. (Spoiler: it doesn't)

You CAN do YYY but you WON'T do YYY.

No, you can't, because God's knowledge can't be wrong.

 

[buckshot24]

Did somebody just say something?

 

[fskimospy]

Did somebody just say something?

You're acting less and less mature as these threads go on. What's up with that?

 

[JD50]

Did somebody just say something?

I doubt anyone that's currently responding to you believes that you are learning anything or even want to learn anything. The responses are more for the casual observer that might learn something from the conversation.

 

[Moonbeam]

Because, fool, the fact that God made them evil nevertheless means they're actually evil. And protecting society from their evil behavior is totally rational.

Notice also that God has also created a kabuki dance where these these evil people serve in prison, and some are then "rehabilitated" and some are not.

And it is certainly reasonable to ask why the death penalty should ever be used, when God is the actual murderer.

But a point you're missing is that EVERYONE - the victims, the police, the judges, the jurors, the jailers, and the general public - were all pre-ordained by God to feel and think and adjudicate and impose sentences and argue about criminal justice and post on ATPN threads in exactly the way it is all panning out.

So to ask "why" is a totally meaningless question for God-believers like you. Because you already know the answer: God made it this way.

The same would be true if people are driven by feelings they do not know or want to know they have, like self hate. A person who is asleep or a robot running a program can't be blamed for anything. If people, as I say is true, are run by unconscious self hate, it would be nice if they actually felt they had been forgiven. Self pride, however, doesn't want to admit to anything.

 

[Moonbeam]

An honest disbelief would go something like this:

"I see nothing that can't (at least in theory) be explained by non-supernatural causes. And since I otherwise have no personal need to believe in the supernatural, I don't believe in God."

As to your conception of an "honest belief in God," then no one at all - including you - have an honest belief in God by that standard.

No need that you are aware of.... But why do you believe your second paragraph to be true?

 

[Moonbeam]

Yes, because the sad reality is that society currently does not have the ability to fix those issues. The damage murderers and rapists cause far outweighs the loss of their freedom.

There was a time when disabled people died because we did not have the ability to take care of them.

If you want a reason, that would be the reason.

I don't disagree, but how do you know these things. What makes you a judge of utility is? How do you defend your position against say the notion there are too many people on earth and the more murders there are the merrier.

 

[buckshot24]

You're acting less and less mature as these threads go on. What's up with that?

I didn't see any of your posts calling out name calling as immature. Why not?

 

[realibrad]

I don't disagree, but how do you know these things. What makes you a judge of utility is? How do you defend your position against say the notion there are too many people on earth and the more murders there are the merrier.

Are there too many people on earth?

I think the real question is, is the trade off for having x amount of people with y level of technology worth it. That I don't know. So much of the damage caused by people is avoidable and its hard to see where that starts and ends. We don't need to dump garbage into the ocean, but many do because its easier. So, I don't have enough to say there is too many people on the planet.

If we invented a new energy source and found a way to make pollution zero, would we still have too many people on the planet?

As for why having more murders would be bad, that is easy. If a murderer murders someone who is productive then society loses out on that productivity. There might be good from that, but on net the loss of productivity is likely bad in the vast majority of cases. So, if you scale that up, you only get more net loss and that would be bad. Thus, more murderers free to murder in society is bad.

 

[JEDIYoda]

No, you can't, because God's knowledge can't be wrong.

so how does God knowing something is going to happen and not acting on said happening have anything g to do with manipulating what is going to happen?? It does not! All it means is that God knows! You still have the choice which is your choice yet God is not in the business of manipulating that choice to cause a particular outcome..

 

[buckshot24]

"No, you can't, because God's knowledge can't be wrong."

When you look at past events you don't say anything forced you to choose what you did. God sees your future events like past events.

 

[Omar F1]

Quoting from page 42

Remember all those commandments, on pain of death if you break them? Or the verses commanding rape and slaughter?

I'm quite aware of the Islamic side at least. Enslaving God's enemies, if they didn't pay ransom, is a controversial subject without a doubt.
Although, I thought of it many times already - to be honest I haven't reached any rational conclusion yet.

However, if you'd like me talking frankly here, then following thought has crossed my mind:
Slavery did exist across the entire history. Not going far when WWII Germans POW, for example, were sent to forced-work camps, in which most of them never made it alive.
It was well admitted part of the society back then, whether being enslaved by war or normal slave trading.

Shame on humanity for such behavior and standards, that's for damn sure. But why when religious matter being involved, commanded by self-evident prophet, then we make the worst out of the case and show such hostility to the God and his prophets.
I mean, it was there already. I guess slavery wasn't invention of Abrahamic religions in the first place.
In another way, I think slavery is the invention of man, not God.
Same could be said about rape; while he did create that strong desire for the other gender, we can't simply assume that he is also responsible for rape cases as well.

Besides, Islam came along with a few rights for salves, while in the same time encouraging us to set them free. Also it becomes mandatory to release them after committing some particular sins.

Personally, I might - somehow - understand their views back in 1400 years ago, however for that practice to endure for so long after that period is something unacceptable at all.
For example, Muslims could brag however they like about Salahdin, but the truth is when I figured out how Christian women were sold for cheap in the aftermath I completely lost any respect for him, and would never give a damn about his entire life.

How convenient.

Not too certain how best to quote the Quran (with the Bible, you quote "Book Chapter:verse#-verse#"), so I'll post a link to the passage.

http://islamqa.info/en/21457

They're Hadith narratives, not Quran.
The group compilation of Hadith by Imam al Bukhari or Imam Muslim are both highly regarded in Islamic literature. In fact, some scholars would place them right after Quran.
You might check their story how did they devote their lives doing their best to pick on authentic narratives of the Prophet's statements.

As for women subject, I understand that God did not create both males & females totally equal. Thus, man was chosen for the leadership, while women has somewhat less kind of rule (that is obvious looking back in the history).
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband´s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)." al Nisaa, 34.

Wrong.

Proverbs 16:9 - "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. "
Jeremiah 34:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness. I create good, and I create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things."

As I stated earlier, there are some already predetermined fates by God. Like our time of birth, in which family to be born, in which country or age.
These are likely factors to shape your destiny. However, most of us would have a lot of options during his life and many choices would eventually determine your path and destiny.

That subject has drawn a lot of debate between scholars, is it our destines already predetermined or we're completely free to make our own? I believe simply in both.
I whish I could discuss it further in Arabic.

"Commit awful or sinful deeds" That's contradictory. Not killing a rape victim that did not have her cries heard in a city, is a sin; to do so, is to break the commandment from Deuteronomy 22:23-24.

To kill said rape victim, however, is an 'awful' (term you're looking for is evil) deed.

So, in other words, you're saying that you shall go to hell for doing as Yahweh commands, as he commands evil. But you shall also go to hell for disobeying Yahweh's commands, as to do so is to sin.

You got a point here. Although rape, strangely enough, seem not mentioned anywhere in Islamic literature. Perhaps rape wasn't widespread among old Arab tribes, bear in mind that intercourse with their own slaves wasn't considered rape at all in that time.

Wrong. Rape, thievery and killing is something he adores. This has been covered several times already.

For example:

2 Samuel 12:11-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Judges 5:30
Zechariah 14:1-2
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Numbers 31:7-1
Judges 21:10-24

As far as I know, things were knocked down a little bit in Islam, ROE - if we could call it - have changed into a little merciful course. (for example, sparring non-combatants, cease to destroy buildings and plants)

Well, of course I've no idea why God has been so obsessed with his enemies in such way.
But you might try and take a look from God's POV: dozens of prophets were sent during the Judaism long era, and long before it; yet they were met with denial or eventually got killed, with last but not least the Jesus himself.
Mohamed, was sent to masters of Arabic language along a miraculous book, of which they have acknowledged that it's not structured out of ordinary humans, yet he was met denial as well along with harm, blockade and assassination attempts.
Wars was not only way to torture his enemies though.
Reportedly, the people of Hud (Eber, son of Noah) were eventually wiped out by furious storm imposed on them for seven nights in succession, such an anger because of their denial.

Why did he create it that way and have done all of that, absolutely no idea.

Nothing goes against Yahweh's will, as has been outlined plainly before. Therefore, we're just automatons that move by his hand. Which is silly, but you have to believe it if you believe in Yahweh. There's no way around it.

You're both right and wrong.
Nothing goes against his will, that is inherit within our faith.
You intend to do something and often you will be allowed to proceed as planned, by his will and yours.
However, it doesn't necessarily means he is in acceptance of such intention or act.
Sometimes, however, he would interfere and make it impossible for you to accomplish, for that we would say that you intended to do something but the God have driven you into something else.

So people should suffer, so that they can get a better lot in the next round?

Fuck off.

Obviously you haven't read about Heaven.
Reported by Hadith, that on the judgment day the most miserable man in entire humanity history - can you imagine that - will be dipped in heaven then asked: Had you seen any misery in your entire life? No God, not at all.

Tell me, have you known anybody anywhere who didn't suffer one way or another? have you seen that completely happy human in this life?
Yes, suffering was planned from the start, for which he didn't intend to create us for this life only, as this whole life considered a very short journey for us.

Understand my view? You've not read the past five pages of this thread. You've repeated what the other fingers-in-ears lads have argued.

And I do indeed understand your position. You're being dishonest in regards to what you believe, to shy away from admitting your immoral for worshiping the most evil of deities to have been thought up by man.


Bloody hell, I've yet to see a pro-religious argument, in this thread, that has not been covered by Christopher Hitchens. You Abrahamics should go watch a few of his debates; save us the trouble of going over the same, tired arguments over and over again.

Problem with atheists is, they think we're biased and irrational while they're not.
Tell me, why those arguments against his religions always nitpicking only the darkest passages that ever existed and ignore everything else.
Do you know about some social and solidarity rules that exists, "no one of you would be considered believer except after he like to others what he like to himself" - that Hadith is what I live by and try to apply to my surrounding as much as I could - because I well know that I could have been that poor miserable man out there, for that I try to make those around me happier and I do thank the God in each and every single day for his grace.

Bloody hell, I've yet to see a pro-religious argument, in this thread, that has not been covered by Christopher Hitchens. You Abrahamics should go watch a few of his debates; save us the trouble of going over the same, tired arguments over and over again

Here is the deal, pick a photograph for your face and try to reposition your facial features in a way to look more beautiful than we currently are.
If you succeed, then I'd have been living in delusion for the past 31-years.

 

[Omar F1]

Someone here *is* being childish.

To Omar, his god is the one true god. To my next door neighbour (a Hindu) his gods are the many true gods. A thousand years ago Sigurd's gods were the many true gods. That's not sarcasm, that's a set of facts.

I'll leave it for you guys to figure out whose god is going to win while I just get on with living my life.

All the Abrahamic-religions' prophets had worshipped the same exact God - the creator of everything, this is a hard fact if we look back into history. They often were aided by miracles to prove their cause, where last one of them is Quran itself in its original Arabic form.

Simply, we dare any objective/non-biased Arabic-speaking person to read it thoroughly from cover to cover over the period of one or two months then to conclude that it's normal writing like any other book.

I wonder why the West, for example, through their intelligence/spying network in this region has never attempted to study such claim.
All have they done was to find some supposedly contradictions or those awful things like enslaving others. But structurally-wise I didn't heard much talking about it.

 

[WelshBloke]

God being outside of our time domain is vital for understanding this.

That would make no difference. We live in this timeline, and its we that are making the choices (or not).
Either god knows what we are going to do or he doesn't.

A contradiction nonetheless.

Its really not. But it is irrelevant to this discussion.

You CAN do YYY but you WON'T do YYY. If there are two choices you will pick one or the other (excluding neither as an option).

If theres no chance that I can do [YYY] then [YYY] inst a choice. There is a zero probability that I will chose it. It is not a choice. The parrot is dead.

 

[WelshBloke]

so how does God knowing something is going to happen and not acting on said happening have anything g to do with manipulating what is going to happen?? It does not! All it means is that God knows! You still have the choice which is your choice yet God is not in the business of manipulating that choice to cause a particular outcome..

Its not a question of god manipulating anything. If god knows what is going to happen, and god is infallible, then that is what will happen.

If god has had that knowledge for ever then just having the knowledge of what will happen precludes free will.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

When you look at past events you don't say anything forced you to choose what you did.

I do if I believe that some being infallibly knew the results before my action.

God sees your future events like past events.

Yes, and just like the past is fixed, the future must also be fixed, making all "choice" just an illusion. If I did A as opposed to B in the past, I cannot do B, because A has already been done. It must be the same for future events in order for them to be known by God.

You're not addressing ANY of the actual reasoning here. You're simply repeating your erroneous beliefs like saying them more times will magically make them true. You're a disingenuous, dishonest fucktard.

 

[buckshot24]

That would make no difference. We live in this timeline, and its we that are making the choices (or not).
Either god knows what we are going to do or he doesn't.

Look at what you had for lunch today (or yesterday) did you have a free choice in what you had? Yes. If God is outside of our timeline he can look at your future choices like you look at your past choices.

If theres no chance that I can do [YYY] then [YYY] inst a choice. There is a zero probability that I will chose it. It is not a choice. The parrot is dead.

There is a chance but you don't pick it!

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

so how does God knowing something is going to happen and not acting on said happening have anything g to do with manipulating what is going to happen?? It does not! All it means is that God knows! You still have the choice which is your choice yet God is not in the business of manipulating that choice to cause a particular outcome..

All of this has already been answered -- repeatedly -- in this thread. If you're too stupid to catch on the first 100 times, I have no reason to believe repeating myself once more is going to change anything.

 

[WelshBloke]

Look at what you had for lunch today (or yesterday) did you have a free choice in what you had? Yes. If God is outside of our timeline he can look at your future choices like you look at your past choices.

If someone already knew what I was going to choose then I didn't have free will.
It doesn't matter what 'time line' (seriously, that's too star trek) god is on. If he knows what I'll do before I do it then I have no choice but to do that.
The only semi valid cop out is the "god is aware of all possible choices" which isn't really knowing what will happen either.

There is a chance but you don't pick it!

But one of the choices would mean that God was wrong and if you include that as a valid choice then it means that God is fallible, if you don't include it as a valid choice then it means that you don't have free will.

 

[fskimospy]

I do if I believe that some being infallibly knew the results before my action.

Yes, and just like the past is fixed, the future must also be fixed, making all "choice" just an illusion. If I did A as opposed to B in the past, I cannot do B, because A has already been done. It must be the same for future events in order for them to be known by God.

You're not addressing ANY of the actual reasoning here. You're simply repeating your erroneous beliefs like saying them more times will magically make them true. You're a disingenuous, dishonest fucktard.

Again, knowledge is only half the equation. According to them God has not only perfect knowledge but literally created all the circumstances that led to every decision. Within those circumstances free will is literally impossible.

Literally impossible.

 

[Moonbeam]

Are there too many people on earth?

I think the real question is, is the trade off for having x amount of people with y level of technology worth it. That I don't know. So much of the damage caused by people is avoidable and its hard to see where that starts and ends. We don't need to dump garbage into the ocean, but many do because its easier. So, I don't have enough to say there is too many people on the planet.

If we invented a new energy source and found a way to make pollution zero, would we still have too many people on the planet?

As for why having more murders would be bad, that is easy. If a murderer murders someone who is productive then society loses out on that productivity. There might be good from that, but on net the loss of productivity is likely bad in the vast majority of cases. So, if you scale that up, you only get more net loss and that would be bad. Thus, more murderers free to murder in society is bad.

How would it be bad if somebody with a productive job I want and can do is murdered? Isn't utility in the eye of th beholder or not?

 

[buckshot24]

If someone already knew what I was going to choose then I didn't have free will.
It doesn't matter what 'time line' (seriously, that's too star trek) god is on. If he knows what I'll do before I do it then I have no choice but to do that.

Of course it matters. Did you have free choice for your lunch, yes or no? Looking back at that choice doesn't mean you didn't have the choice. God can look forward like you look backward. Really not difficult.

But one of the choices would mean that God was wrong and if you include that as a valid choice then it means that God is fallible, if you don't include it as a valid choice then it means that you don't have free will.

It is a valid choice but you didn't/won't make it.