The Islamic thread

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: cquark
When the Arabs invaded the Roman and Persian empires, there of course was a great deal of fighting, but they did not impose their religion by force on the Jews or Christians of Syria, Palestine, and North Africa that they conquered. In fact, they were welcomed by the Christians of those regions, because they offered protection from persecution at the hands of the Western church. Yes, conversion did have advantages--you didn't have to pay the head tax if you converted, for example--but the Caliphate's taxes were lower than those of Rome.

OK, but what about in the earlier days? When Muhammad first started Islam did he not spread it by the sword?

How did all the arab people originally become Muslim? The different tribes were conquered and forced into Islam. If they did not convert they were killed, correct?

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: cquark
When the Arabs invaded the Roman and Persian empires, there of course was a great deal of fighting, but they did not impose their religion by force on the Jews or Christians of Syria, Palestine, and North Africa that they conquered. In fact, they were welcomed by the Christians of those regions, because they offered protection from persecution at the hands of the Western church. Yes, conversion did have advantages--you didn't have to pay the head tax if you converted, for example--but the Caliphate's taxes were lower than those of Rome.

OK, but what about in the earlier days? When Muhammad first started Islam did he not spread it by the sword?
How did all the arab people originally become Muslim? The different tribes were conquered and forced into Islam. If they did not convert they were killed, correct?

Actually, when it started out, Mohammed and his followers was forced to flee Mecca for Medina in 622, in an event called the Hejira, which marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar. Mohammed won many converts in Medina (by persuasion). As a result, the Meccans attacked Medina three times with superior forces. Mohammed always defeated them, the final time in the Battle of the Trench.

Increasingly, Arab tribes joined Mohammed and converted to Islam. In 630, Mohammed assembled an overwhelming force of his converts and marched on Mecca, leading the Meccans to surrender without a fight. Mohammed declared a general amnesty except for 2 or 3 of his enemies, smashed the idols and declared Mecca a holy city of Islam, where no unbeliever could live. He did not kill people who did not convert, but they did have to leave the city.

After 630, tribal delegations came from all over Arabia to join Mohammed and convert to Islam. Mohammed fought a few minor battles against some specific tribes after this point, and died of old age in 632, having united all of Arabia until his political rule and the Islamic religion.

So yes, there was force involved at times, but few converts were made at the point of a sword as you suggest.

 

[rsd]

You can be forced/persuaded to convert w/o actual physical violence towards oneself.

 

[Sultan]

I am interested both in what the religion teaches, and how it is followed as the latter is actually more important. Maybe the latter needs to be taken to a separate thread, but it already seems present in this thread despite Sultan's intention.
I believe the issue is that to Sultan the former is the only thing that is important, as it is the way he seems to view things. He does not seem to understand that others consider the latter important.

I agree, however, many people indulge in demonzing the religion. All people of faith have their bad sort, and it is impertive that religions are not judged by the actions of some. If that was the case, non-Christians would say Christianity teaches paedophilia as many priests have been involved in this vice. However, that is not the case, the bad elements need to be weeded out. But again, that was not the intention of this thread.

I do not see homosexuality mentioned in any of these versus. They talk about lewdness, wickedness, and mischief, but where does it define homosexuality as any of these?

The context of this verse was a reference to Prophet Lut's people - Sodom and Gomorrah who were engaged in the acts of homosexuality. I do not know if Arabic contains a word for homosexuality, but lewdness and wickedness in this verse refer to their acts. There are additional verses of the Quran as well as Sunnah/Hadith which lay out the punishment for homosexuality.

As HotChic requested, you provided a link to the explanation of Surah 4. If I understood the article correctly, it provided the reasons why it was necessary at the time to unite and keep separate from the Jews and Christians. However, I did not see it state that this is no longer necessary.

That is true, and therefore you find Muslims befriending non-Muslims all over the globe. If taken at face value without understand the context of the verse, you will not find Muslims associating at ALL with non-Muslims. My response to Riporin's post was to refute his argument that Muslims and Jews/Christians cannot be friends. By my saying a verse should be taken "literally" does not preclude it from understanding the message of God. If I conveyed that impression, I apologize.

005.063
Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.

Rabbis are not evil. Their act of not forbidding the habit of sinful words and eating things forbidden are evil works. I would appreciate it if you could post the source of where you obtained that verse and the idea that Rabbis are evil.

005.064
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

Those Jews that utter such a phrase and commit blasphemy will be punished by God. I dont see any mention of God asking the Muslims to punish the Jews. The verse is not meant for ALL Jews, but those who commit blasphemy. I do not know the Jewish beliefs of Oneness of God, but Islam believes that God is omnipresent, all-powerful, Omniscient and uttering "Allah's hand is tied up" is a blasphemous phrase. Please also note that this verse is a warning for all Muslims to not commit mischief on earth, or commit the other acts (blasphemy), else Muslims fail invite love of God.


The verse 002-216 was revealed when the Muslims faced an offensive and persecution from the non-Muslims, as well as the appearance of munafiqin (hypocrites) who had entered the Islamic fold merely to harm it from within. By this message, God is trying to convey that a Muslim must face an opposing force and must stand by what he believes in. This does not only include physical warfare, but ALSO holding fast to the basic tenets of Islam and be not hypocrites, meaning one must fight/struggle to stay on the right path.

002.278
O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers.

002.279
If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger: But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums: Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

The above verses as you question deal with usury. Usury is forbidden in Islam, and God is instructing Muslims to stop the practice of usury. If they dont, they incur punishment from God.


Verse 002.282 is just part of rights of Muslim women. Since many take this verse singularly, it has given them the opportunity to present Islam as a religion which promotes male chauvinism and denies rights of women. This topic deserves a different post, and I will address it when someone questions it. I will be sure to include this verse in that post, so that you can have a suitable answer for it.

If you are trying to fight those interpretations, it would be very helpful to provide a better interpretation to illustrate how people misinterpret the religion. I am sure Riprorin's sources are biased, but these biases are common in the US. Please refute them.

I am doing my best to answer to Riporin's posts, and have done so. I am trying to limit my responses to the questions asked, and I replied to Riporin's question in the above quoted text, and asked a follow-up question.

Another question, can you explain the difference between Arab, Islam, and Muslim as the terms are used fairly interchangably in the US, but if I understand correctly Arab at least is not the same as the other two and refers to the region?

Islam is a religion. Muslims are the followers of the religion of Islam. An Arab is a member of the Semitic people inhabiting Arabia (from Dictionary.com).

Thanks for your contribution.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Questions for Sultan or other American Muslims :
Does Islam allow a muslim to support entities that cause harm to Islam and kill other muslims? More specifically; as a muslim american you obide by american laws and pay taxes, yes? These taxes eventually aid Israel, in particular their military. The Israeli miitary has killed many muslims and I think its safe to assume that muslims want Israel gone from the Middle East. Also the US military's war in Iraq and Afghanistan surely displeases most muslims.

Isn't it going against your faith to choose to live in America and indirectly support the killing of fellow Muslims? Why do you choose to live in America or other western countries instead of an Islamic country?

Also what do muslims think about evolution? Is the Islamic view of creation similar to Christiantity?

 

[cwjerome]

Sultan, I have a question for you. Do you believe in "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and what do you think its impact has been on Islamic religious teachings and culture?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
I think one of the reasons the west dominates is precisely due to the the fact that so many christians are "watered down" so to speak. Christianity has undergone reformations and has definately changed with the times. Think about how much science has changed western society and Christianity for the better.

Now I ask why doesn't the Islamic middle east dominate the west? They had the knowledge of the greeks and egyptians before the west did. Why is it that they didn't advance that knowledge and make any real progress in the way europe eventually would? Why the stagnation?

No doubt the reasons are numerous and complex, but I think the stranglehold of Islam is one of the main causes. Muslims seem to have no freedom whatsoever. I'm guessing Sultan was born to Muslim parents and was indoctrinated as a child to believe in Islam. He had no choice. Under Islamic law an adult muslim has no choice to question his religion or leave it since his punishment would be death. Christians also have no choice as children, but most christians believe you have free will to choose to follow christianity or not as an adult, without fear of violent repurcussions. Also Islam seems to be very resistant to change. Much of the old testament is disregarded by modern Christians. They kind of ignore the passages that contradict modern knowledge by saying it was specific to the times...etc. I think this is a good thing. When confronted with evidence that contradicts your beliefs, you should change your beliefs. This is a fundamental aspect of science, yet it seems to me that there is nothing in Islam that allows for correction/change since the quran is "the one perfect unadultered word of God". ?

Regarding your first paragraph, I find it hard to belive that many Christians are "watered down". I am not going to claim to be very knowledgable about Christianity, but the West hardly shows ANY signs of adherence to the teachings of the Bible. I can post a multitude of verses of the Bible that completely contradict the actions of "Christians" in today's times, but that's the content of another thread. The progress of the West is not associated with Christianity AT ALL. However, the downfall of the Muslims IS associated with the declining beliefs and understanding of Islam by Muslims. A clear example (just oneof many) is that God cleanly instructs Muslims not to take bribes, yet the MOST corrupt nations in the world are predominantly states with Muslim majority.

When the Muslims DID adhere to the principles taught by Islam, they were the most predominant nation in terms of Science, Technology, Economy, etc. History has shown this to be true.

Muslims enjoy great freedom by the laws of Islam. If you wish to differ, please present some arguments to the contrary and I shall do my best to reply. Limited freedom in certain countries of Muslim majority is VERY true, but that does not reflect the teachings of Islam. While many argue that Islam needs to modernised, etc, I on the other hand argue that Muslims need to turn more towards Islam as the guiding principle of their lives

I have yet to see Islam containing information that contradicts teachings of science. In fact, many, MANY examples exist in the Quran pertaining to science that have been scientifically proven decades, if not centuries after the Quran was revealed. ONE example is the word sea (water) was mentioned in the Quran 32 times and the word land 13 times in the Quran
If we add the number of the word sea and the word land mentioned in the Quran we will get a sum of: 45
And if we build this simple equation:
1) The number of times the word Sea Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
32 / 45 X 100 = 71.11111111111%
2) The number of times the word Land Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
13 / 45 X 100 = 28.88888888889 %
And by this simple equation, we get the final answer to this miracle, which was in the Quran for more than 14 centuries, and is a later discovery by "Science":
71.11111111111% = Percent Of Water On Earth
28.88888888889% = Percent Of Land On Earth

Does Islam allow a muslim to support entities that cause harm to Islam and kill other muslims? More specifically; as a muslim american you obide by american laws and pay taxes, yes? These taxes eventually aid Israel, in particular their military. The Israeli miitary has killed many muslims and I think its safe to assume that muslims want Israel gone from the Middle East. Also the US military's war in Iraq and Afghanistan surely displeases most muslims.

Isn't it going against your faith to choose to live in America and indirectly support the killing of fellow Muslims? Why do you choose to live in America or other western countries instead of an Islamic country?

One can answer this question in two ways. One answer would be a No. Muslims should NOT live in America if their wealth is being used to kill Muslims. The other answer would be a Yes, Muslims SHOULD live in America where they can lend their voice to the political process of the United States and alter the policies of the government to achieve a peaceful resolution to the problems of the world, not limited to Israel/Palestine conflict.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Sultan, I have a question for you. Do you believe in "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and what do you think its impact has been on Islamic religious teachings and culture?

I have not read this protocol, nor aware of its contents. I am sorry to not be able to answer your question. Hopefully I will get a chance to read this, sooner than later.

 

[cwjerome]

If you are not aware of the contents of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" then I think you're not qualified to speak with any authority on this OP.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Questions for Sultan or other American Muslims :
Does Islam allow a muslim to support entities that cause harm to Islam and kill other muslims? More specifically; as a muslim american you obide by american laws and pay taxes, yes? These taxes eventually aid Israel, in particular their military. The Israeli miitary has killed many muslims and I think its safe to assume that muslims want Israel gone from the Middle East. Also the US military's war in Iraq and Afghanistan surely displeases most muslims.

Isn't it going against your faith to choose to live in America and indirectly support the killing of fellow Muslims? Why do you choose to live in America or other western countries instead of an Islamic country?

Answered above Thanks for asking.

Also what do muslims think about evolution? Is the Islamic view of creation similar to Christiantity?

Please note the following is an understanding of the Quranic verses. It also underlines highlights the theological viewpoints of the concept of souls and living beings.

I am not completely knowledgable about this subject. I do not believe Evolution is directly mentioned in the Quran. HOWEVER, it is understood from the Quran, revealed over 1,400 years ago, that there is both; "Creation" and "Evolution." And in both instances, it is only Allah who is "Able to do all things."

The Christian Bible says that Adam & Eve were both created here on Earth, less than 10,000 years ago (?). The Quran says that Adam & Eve were created in Heaven, and NOT on Earth. When they disobeyed God, He expelled them from Heaven, down to Earth. The Quran does not say when this happened. Also the Quran does not say whether Adam & Eve were physically transported from Heaven to Earth, or just their souls were put into the already living homo sapiens.

039.042
It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

So, according to the Quran, humans can be alive, breathing, with fully functional bodies (hence perfect DNA), but still without souls.

Homo sapiens had the same bodies and DNA as humans, but what about their souls? Were the souls of the first humans (Adam & Eve) put into those evolved homo sapiens? To answer this question, we need more information about souls and spirits. But Allah clearly bans all information about souls and spirits:

017.085
They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

So all the information that will answer whether or not the souls of the first humans were put into homo sapiens, is banned. Muslims don?t venture into this topic simply because God ordered them not to.

However, this is not the case concerning animals. The Quran agrees with science that all life started in water, and not on dry land:

024.045
And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

So the Quran agrees with science on the evolution of animals. But for humans, the Quran stops short of answering whether it was transportation from heaven or just homo sapiens with human souls.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
If you are not aware of the contents of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" then I think you're not qualified to speak with any authority on this OP.

ok, thank you for posting your question on Islamic laws and beliefs.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Sultan said:
I have yet to see Islam containing information that contradicts teachings of science. In fact, many, MANY examples exist in the Quran pertaining to science that have been scientifically proven decades, if not centuries after the Quran was revealed. ONE example is the word sea (water) was mentioned in the Quran 32 times and the word land 13 times in the Quran
If we add the number of the word sea and the word land mentioned in the Quran we will get a sum of: 45
And if we build this simple equation:
1) The number of times the word Sea Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
32 / 45 X 100 = 71.11111111111%
2) The number of times the word Land Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
13 / 45 X 100 = 28.88888888889 %
And by this simple equation, we get the final answer to this miracle, which was in the Quran for more than 14 centuries, and is a later discovery by "Science":
71.11111111111% = Percent Of Water On Earth
28.88888888889% = Percent Of Land On Earth

WOW! And I thought the Christians who believe in the bible code were ... um... strange.

The point I was trying to make was more about the conflict between science and religion( particularly fundamentalism). Science requires the ability to make observations and ask why those observations occur. Religion provides answers for observations that man cannot comprehend and does not allow second guessing those answers.

The problem is there is no need for science to a true fundamentalist. Everything is there in the holy book, it provides a model for how to live and contains all the answers. The only thing a fundamentalist needs to study is the word of god. I was implying that Islam is well suited to fundamentalism and that may be the reason that science never really took off the way it eventually did in the christian dominated region of europe and north america.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Sultan said:
I have yet to see Islam containing information that contradicts teachings of science. In fact, many, MANY examples exist in the Quran pertaining to science that have been scientifically proven decades, if not centuries after the Quran was revealed. ONE example is the word sea (water) was mentioned in the Quran 32 times and the word land 13 times in the Quran
If we add the number of the word sea and the word land mentioned in the Quran we will get a sum of: 45
And if we build this simple equation:
1) The number of times the word Sea Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
32 / 45 X 100 = 71.11111111111%
2) The number of times the word Land Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
13 / 45 X 100 = 28.88888888889 %
And by this simple equation, we get the final answer to this miracle, which was in the Quran for more than 14 centuries, and is a later discovery by "Science":
71.11111111111% = Percent Of Water On Earth
28.88888888889% = Percent Of Land On Earth

WOW! And I thought the Christians who believe in the bible code were ... um... strange.

LOL, yeah.... :laugh:

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Sultan said:
I have yet to see Islam containing information that contradicts teachings of science. In fact, many, MANY examples exist in the Quran pertaining to science that have been scientifically proven decades, if not centuries after the Quran was revealed. ONE example is the word sea (water) was mentioned in the Quran 32 times and the word land 13 times in the Quran
If we add the number of the word sea and the word land mentioned in the Quran we will get a sum of: 45
And if we build this simple equation:
1) The number of times the word Sea Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
32 / 45 X 100 = 71.11111111111%
2) The number of times the word Land Mentioned in the Quran (Divide) The Sum of the words Sea + Water mentioned in the Quran and multiply it by 100 :
13 / 45 X 100 = 28.88888888889 %
And by this simple equation, we get the final answer to this miracle, which was in the Quran for more than 14 centuries, and is a later discovery by "Science":
71.11111111111% = Percent Of Water On Earth
28.88888888889% = Percent Of Land On Earth

WOW! And I thought the Christians who believe in the bible code were ... um... strange.

The point I was trying to make was more about the conflict between science and religion( particularly fundamentalism). Science requires the ability to make observations and ask why those observations occur. Religion provides answers for observations that man cannot comprehend and does not allow second guessing those answers.

The problem is there is no need for science to a true fundamentalist. Everything is there in the holy book, it provides a model for how to live and contains all the answers. The only thing a fundamentalist needs to study is the word of god. I was implying that Islam is well suited to fundamentalism and that may be the reason that science never really took off the way it eventually did in the christian dominated region of europe and north america.

You sure? Then these "Fundamentalists" you describe have no need for a lot of things we have discovered...like electricity, the combustion engine, medcine, etc. etc.

I think you are looking too much into the idea of "fundamentalist". Just because religion says to have answers that we will probably never figure out (though we can try), doesn't mean we shoudln't. Just because the religion says "this is what happens" doesn't mean that people should be discouraged from finding out HOW it happened.
Fundamentalism!=anti science
and those who are "Anti science"...they are just ignorant regardless of their views

And what do you mean that science never took off in the Middle East? I suggest you do a quick google and read up my friend!

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Sultan

The Christian Bible says that Adam & Eve were both created here on Earth, less than 10,000 years ago (?). The Quran says that Adam & Eve were created in Heaven, and NOT on Earth. When they disobeyed God, He expelled them from Heaven, down to Earth. The Quran does not say when this happened. Also the Quran does not say whether Adam & Eve were physically transported from Heaven to Earth, or just their souls were put into the already living homo sapiens.

Hey Sultan you should at least post the link to the site you copied that paragraph from. It's conveniently the first site google lists in a
search for "islam evolution".

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Sultan

The Christian Bible says that Adam & Eve were both created here on Earth, less than 10,000 years ago (?). The Quran says that Adam & Eve were created in Heaven, and NOT on Earth. When they disobeyed God, He expelled them from Heaven, down to Earth. The Quran does not say when this happened. Also the Quran does not say whether Adam & Eve were physically transported from Heaven to Earth, or just their souls were put into the already living homo sapiens.

Hey Sultan you should at least post the link to the site you copied that paragraph from. It's conveniently the first site google lists in a
search for "islam evolution".

Sorry I forgot to include it as a reference. Almost all of the information I post here includes a link to the reference source as I had indicated to all Muslims posting here to include it as such.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: magomago
And what do you mean that science never took off in the Middle East? I suggest you do a quick google and read up my friend!

I mean just what I said. True, Islam made some contributions to science, especially in regards to algebra. But a sane person cannot deny that the overwheming majority of current scientific knowledge came from christian dominated Europe and N.America. I'm talking about the knowledge that came from such great minds as:
Galileo, Newton, Leibnitz, Laplace, Bernoulli, Boyle, Faraday, Joule, Pascal, Kelvin, Maxwell, Riemann, Euler, Mendel, Davinci, Curie, Kepler, Darwin, Descartes, Thomson, Einstein, ... Do I really need to go on because I can.

Why wasn't calculus derived in the Islamic world? What about the discovery of the electron and the elements of the periodic table, our medical knowledge of human anatomy, gravity, relativity, etc?

Who are the great groundbreaking Islamic scientists and mathematicians? I'm not trying to say that only euopeans made great scientific discoveries. It's just that scientific achievements from the Islamic countries seem to be minor when compared to the rest of the world. Why, is beyond me, but I think the fact that Islam is such a strong religion might play a role.

Edit- I was quoting Sultan not magomago. I think something is messed up with the forums quote feature

 

[Aimster]

I haven't been following this thread, but I can tell you what I've learned.

Everyone is taxed in every country. For example lets say a country has a 6% tax on the population. Muslims pay a 2.5% tax and the Muslim country adjusts that into their 6% figure. Non-Muslims also pay a tax and that is also included in their 6% tax (they do not pay the Muslim tax). The tax the Muslims pay is to go to charities and the poor. The tax the non-Muslims pay is to go to their Churches and to their faith (not for their protection). Here is a clear example of how Christians and Muslims live side-by-side in a Muslim country. Church in Tehran, Iran.

1) When a Muslim uses the term ?infidel,? he is not talking about a Christian or a Jew. The term ?infidel,? according to the Quran, refers to an atheist.
2) The Quran does not teach the principle of violence.
3) Islam accepts the writings of Hebew Torah, and the Christian Gospels of Jesus.
4) It is true that the Quran mentions Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. These men are all respected in the Quran. They are important.
5) Prophet Mohammad taught that Allah gave previous revelations to the Jews and to the Christians in the form of the Torah/Gospels. The Quran is only the new form of it. Thus, what the Christians, Jews believe was once a word of God according to the Quran. The Quran is only the newer/corrected version.

Facts on Jesus:
* that Jesus was given revelation and was sent with clear signs from Allah (Surah 2:254; 5:111).
* that the Jews planned to kill Jesus but Allah had promised to save him from death (Surah 3:55-56)
* that Jesus was put upon a cross (Surah 4:158)
* that Jesus did not die on the cross, but he fainted and was taken down from the cross while he was in fainted condition (Surah 2:73; 4:158)
* that Jesus went to Kashmir after escaping death on the cross (Surah 23:51)
* that Jesus died a natural death (Surah 3:55)
* that Jesus was merely a messenger of Allah (Surah 5:76)
* that God created Jesus out of clay (Surah 3:60) (we are all made of out clay).
* that those who believe Jesus is God are infidels or disbelievers (Surah 5:18, 73, 74)

Islam rejects that any prophet was a God. Islam teaches its followers to invite others with the best manners and wise speech. It prohibts name-calling and invectives towards any person regardless of his or her faith.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary - Word: Infidel
1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: magomago
And what do you mean that science never took off in the Middle East? I suggest you do a quick google and read up my friend!

I mean just what I said. True, Islam made some contributions to science, especially in regards to algebra. But a sane person cannot deny that the overwheming majority of current scientific knowledge came from christian dominated Europe and N.America. I'm talking about the knowledge that came from such great minds as:
Galileo, Newton, Leibnitz, Laplace, Bernoulli, Boyle, Faraday, Joule, Pascal, Kelvin, Maxwell, Riemann, Euler, Mendel, Davinci, Curie, Kepler, Darwin, Descartes, Thomson, Einstein, ... Do I really need to go on because I can.

Why wasn't calculus derived in the Islamic world? What about the discovery of the electron and the elements of the periodic table, our medical knowledge of human anatomy, gravity, relativity, etc?

Who are the great groundbreaking Islamic scientists and mathematicians? I'm not trying to say that only euopeans made great scientific discoveries. It's just that scientific achievements from the Islamic countries seem to be minor when compared to the rest of the world. Why, is beyond me, but I think the fact that Islam is such a strong religion might play a role.

This is a partial list of some of the leading Muslims. Major Muslim contributions continued beyond the fifteenth century. Contributions of more than one hundred other major Muslim personalities can be found in several famous publications by Western historians.

Jabir Ibn Haiyan (Geber) Chemistry (Father of Chemistry) Died 803 C.E.
Al-Asmai Zoology, Botany, Animal Husbandry. 740 - 828
Al-Khwarizmi (Algorizm) Mathematics, Astronomy, Geography. (Algorithm, Algebra, calculus) 770 - 840
'Amr ibn Bahr Al-Jahiz Zoology, Arabic Grammar, Rhetoric, Lexicography 776 - 868
Ibn Ishaq Al-Kindi (Alkindus) Philosophy, Physics, Optics, Medicine, Mathematics, Metallurgy. 800 - 873
Thabit Ibn Qurrah (Thebit) Astronomy, Mechanics, Geometry, Anatomy. 836 - 901
'Abbas Ibn Firnas Mechanics of Flight, Planetarium, Artificial Crystals. Died 888
Ali Ibn Rabban Al-Tabari Medicine, Mathematics, Caligraphy, Literature. 838 - 870
Al-Battani (Albategnius) Astronomy, mathematics, Trigonometry. 858 - 929
Al-Farghani (Al-Fraganus) Astronomy, Civil Engineering. C. 860
Al-Razi (Rhazes) Medicine, Ophthalmology, Smallpox, Chemistry, Astronomy. 864 - 930
Al-Farabi (Al-Pharabius) Sociology, Logic, Philosophy, Political Science, Music. 870 - 950
Abul Hasan Ali Al-Masu'di Geography, History. Died 957
Al-Sufi (Azophi) Astronomy 903 - 986
Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahravi (Albucasis) Surgery, Medicine. (Father of Modern Surgery) 936 - 1013
Muhammad Al-Buzjani Mathematics, Astronomy, Geometry, Trigonometry. 940 - 997
Ibn Al-Haitham (Alhazen) Physics, Optics, Mathematics. 965 - 1040
Al-Mawardi (Alboacen) Political Science, Sociology, Jurisprudence, Ethics. 972 - 1058
Abu Raihan Al-Biruni Astronomy, Mathematics. (Determined Earth's Circumference) 973-1048
Ibn Sina (Avicenna) Medicine, Philosophy, Mathematics, Astronomy. 981 - 1037
Al-Zarqali (Arzachel) Astronomy (Invented Astrolabe). 1028 - 1087
Omar Al-Khayyam Mathematics, Poetry. 1044 - 1123
Al-Ghazali (Algazel) Sociology, Theology, Philosophy. 1058 - 1111

Source

 

[Aimster]

Why are you people fighting about Science? It has nothing to do with religion or whose religion is better.

That's like me saying the M.E has less than 1% AIDS and other STDS while Europe and the rest of the Christian world has a much higher percentage.

Most scientist are not even religious (you can debate this with me).

 

[Grunt03]

Wow this will get very heated indeed.. I think that the biggest problem will be that we refuse to be openminded about other cultures. The majority of Americans think that our way of life is good for all. I do not have a problem with Muslims. I try to understand their way of life and culture, when I have a question I ask.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Now compare all of those Islamic discoveries to those of the western regions. How have they been used to benefit mankind today? I would say that all of those men and their discoveries are dwarfed by Newton alone in terms of their discoveries importance to modern science. Also look at the dates, what about discoveries in the last 300 years?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Aimster
I haven't been following this thread, but I can tell you what I've learned.

Everyone is taxed in every country. For example lets say a country has a 6% tax on the population. Muslims pay a 2.5% tax and the Muslim country adjusts that into their 6% figure. Non-Muslims also pay a tax and that is also included in their 6% tax (they do not pay the Muslim tax). The tax the Muslims pay is to go to charities and the poor. The tax the non-Muslims pay is to go to their Churches and to their faith (not for their protection). Here is a clear example of how Christians and Muslims live side-by-side in a Muslim country. Church in Tehran, Iran.

1) When a Muslim uses the term ?infidel,? he is not talking about a Christian or a Jew. The term ?infidel,? according to the Quran, refers to an atheist.
2) The Quran does not teach the principle of violence.
3) Islam accepts the writings of Hebew Torah, and the Christian Gospels of Jesus.
4) It is true that the Quran mentions Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. These men are all respected in the Quran. They are important.
5) Prophet Mohammad taught that Allah gave previous revelations to the Jews and to the Christians in the form of the Torah/Gospels. The Quran is only the new form of it. Thus, what the Christians, Jews believe was once a word of God according to the Quran. The Quran is only the newer/corrected version.

Facts on Jesus:
* that Jesus was given revelation and was sent with clear signs from Allah (Surah 2:254; 5:111).
* that the Jews planned to kill Jesus but Allah had promised to save him from death (Surah 3:55-56)
* that Jesus was put upon a cross (Surah 4:158)
* that Jesus did not die on the cross, but he fainted and was taken down from the cross while he was in fainted condition (Surah 2:73; 4:158)
* that Jesus went to Kashmir after escaping death on the cross (Surah 23:51)
* that Jesus died a natural death (Surah 3:55)
* that Jesus was merely a messenger of Allah (Surah 5:76)
* that God created Jesus out of clay (Surah 3:60) (we are all made of out clay).
* that those who believe Jesus is God are infidels or disbelievers (Surah 5:18, 73, 74)

Islam rejects that any prophet was a God. Islam teaches its followers to invite others with the best manners and wise speech. It prohibts name-calling and invectives towards any person regardless of his or her faith.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary - Word: Infidel
1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood?

VERY, VERY good post. Thank you for contributing. Some of your facts however are incorrect, and I am correcting only a few

* that Jesus was put upon a cross (Surah 4:158) Incorrect Please read:

004.157
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
004.158
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

* that Jesus did not die on the cross, but he fainted and was taken down from the cross while he was in fainted condition (Surah 2:73; 4:158) Incorrect Please read 4:158 above. 2:73 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jesus.

* that Jesus went to Kashmir after escaping death on the cross (Surah 23:51) Incorrect Please read 23:51 below.

023.051
O ye messengers! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

* that Jesus died a natural death (Surah 3:55) Incorrect Please read below:

003.055
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Jesus was raised to the Heavens by God. Muslims believe he is still alive and living in the Heavens.

Aimster, I request you to please reference your sources in the future.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Why are you people fighting about Science? It has nothing to do with religion or whose religion is better.

That's like me saying the M.E has less than 1% AIDS and other STDS while Europe and the rest of the Christian world has a much higher percentage.

Most scientist are not even religious (you can debate this with me).

True we have gotten off topic somewhat, sorry.

Back to Islam and evolution;

By Sultan;
The Quran agrees with science that all life started in water, and not on dry land:

024.045
And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.

I thought Allah created man from clay? Which is it water or clay?

It seems that Sultan is claiming that Allah put mans soul into the animal homosapien thereby creating modern man. That means that homosapiens were just animals before they had souls correct. And the Qu'ran says animals were created from water. This makes no sense at all and is the result of trying to interpret the Qu'ran in a way that makes it appear to agree with evolution somehow.

 

[b0mbrman]

Alright. A new question...

What does Islam say about the American topics of the day with religious undertones? Specifically abortion and gay marriage...