The Islamic thread

[0marTheZealot]

Ozoned:

Christians and Jews aren't wrong under Islam. They are merely "incomplete." Jews and Christians are called People of the Book. Allah sent down innumerable prophets and Jews and Christians are among the people who held and kept Allah's teachings safe. However, as tiem went on, the books (Torah, NT) got corrupted and malaligned from their original purpose. Thus, Allah sent down a final messanger to complete his teachings. People of the Book aren't wrong. However, polythesits and shirkers are. A shirk is someone who places another above god or says that God has an equal. However, the Holy Trinity doesn't count because it is a manifestation of God in three different ways, not three distinct entities.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Ozoned:

Christians and Jews aren't wrong under Islam. They are merely "incomplete." Jews and Christians are called People of the Book. Allah sent down innumerable prophets and Jews and Christians are among the people who held and kept Allah's teachings safe. However, as tiem went on, the books (Torah, NT) got corrupted and malaligned from their original purpose. Thus, Allah sent down a final messanger to complete his teachings. People of the Book aren't wrong. However, polythesits and shirkers are. A shirk is someone who places another above god or says that God has an equal. However, the Holy Trinity doesn't count because it is a manifestation of God in three different ways, not three distinct entities.

How do you account for the relatively new faiths, particularly the Mormon faith. I'm no mormon expert, but I believe they think Mormon was a prophet of God and a new message was given to Joseph Smith(the book of mormons) in America.

How do you know that this is not the final and complete message from God?

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Ozoned:

Christians and Jews aren't wrong under Islam. They are merely "incomplete." Jews and Christians are called People of the Book. Allah sent down innumerable prophets and Jews and Christians are among the people who held and kept Allah's teachings safe. However, as tiem went on, the books (Torah, NT) got corrupted and malaligned from their original purpose. Thus, Allah sent down a final messanger to complete his teachings. People of the Book aren't wrong. However, polythesits and shirkers are. A shirk is someone who places another above god or says that God has an equal. However, the Holy Trinity doesn't count because it is a manifestation of God in three different ways, not three distinct entities.

How do you account for the relatively new faiths, particularly the Mormon faith. I'm no mormon expert, but I believe they think Mormon was a prophet of God and a new message was given to Joseph Smith(the book of mormons) in America.

How do you know that this is not the final and complete message from God?

The message revealed to Prophet Muhammad is Islam in its comprehensive, complete, and final form.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

The message revealed to Prophet Muhammad is Islam in its comprehensive, complete, and final form.

Not according to Mormons.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Never mind that question since it is impossible to prove why Islam is the true complete message of God without begging the question and dizzying us reasoning folks with all the circular logic.

But please answer my questions about heaven and Islam.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Ozoned:

Christians and Jews aren't wrong under Islam. They are merely "incomplete." Jews and Christians are called People of the Book. Allah sent down innumerable prophets and Jews and Christians are among the people who held and kept Allah's teachings safe. However, as tiem went on, the books (Torah, NT) got corrupted and malaligned from their original purpose. Thus, Allah sent down a final messanger to complete his teachings. People of the Book aren't wrong. However, polythesits and shirkers are. A shirk is someone who places another above god or says that God has an equal. However, the Holy Trinity doesn't count because it is a manifestation of God in three different ways, not three distinct entities.

How do you account for the relatively new faiths, particularly the Mormon faith. I'm no mormon expert, but I believe they think Mormon was a prophet of God and a new message was given to Joseph Smith(the book of mormons) in America.

How do you know that this is not the final and complete message from God?

The message revealed to Prophet Muhammad is Islam in its comprehensive, complete, and final form.

The message was committed to the memory of Muhammad's followers and they wrote the words of the Qur'an, not Muhammad. He could neither read or write. Heh heh.

 

[MegaWorks]

Aimster, Sultan started this thread because he feels and so do I that there?s a lot uninformed users about Islam in AT forums, who keep bashing Islam because of the acts of Al-quada and other Islamic terrorists groups. They believe that Islam is Al-quada, which is totally not true! Our job is to show them the true Islam not the Wahhabie Islam.

Look I don?t support the Taliban or any Salafie group in the Arab World. I was a victim of Salafienne when I was in Kuwait during the Iraq-Iran war. They harassed and murdered many Shiites and accused us of spying for Iran.

 

[MegaWorks]

Question for Sultan:

Which sect of Islam do you follow Sultan?

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

The message revealed to Prophet Muhammad is Islam in its comprehensive, complete, and final form.

The message was committed to the memory of Muhammad's followers and they wrote the words of the Qur'an, not Muhammad. He could neither read or write. Heh heh.

Wow, I didn't know that Muhammad didn't write the Qu'ran himself. This leads to some interesting questions.

One of the most common claims Muslims use against Christianity is that the bible is not trustworthy and has been messed with so much that it no longer contains the true message of God. Correct?

Somehow its hard to believe that muslims don't appy this same critique to the qu'ran. Even if its written form has never been tampered with, how can you be sure the message wasn't screwed with before it was written down. Ever play the game telephone . How can you be sure that some of Muhammads followers didn't inject some of their own beliefs into the message?

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Ozoned

The message revealed to Prophet Muhammad is Islam in its comprehensive, complete, and final form.

The message was committed to the memory of Muhammad's followers and they wrote the words of the Qur'an, not Muhammad. He could neither read or write. Heh heh.

Wow, I didn't know that Muhammad didn't write the Qu'ran himself. This leads to some interesting questions.

One of the most common claims Muslims use against Christianity is that the bible is not trustworthy and has been messed with so much that it no longer contains the true message of God. Correct?

Somehow its hard to believe that muslims don't appy this same critique to the qu'ran. Even if its written form has never been tampered with, how can you be sure the message wasn't screwed with before it was written down. Ever play the game telephone . How can you be sure that some of Muhammads followers didn't inject some of their own beliefs into the message?

Because the language in which it was written. It is in Arabic, but a form of Arabic that is very hard to tamper with. It is all poetic Arabic. Even people who spoke Arabic could not tamper with the Quran without it showing. The Quran is basically a book of poetry. That's why Muslims stand by it 100%.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Wow, I didn't know that Muhammad didn't write the Qu'ran himself. This leads to some interesting questions.

One of the most common claims Muslims use against Christianity is that the bible is not trustworthy and has been messed with so much that it no longer contains the true message of God. Correct?

Somehow its hard to believe that muslims don't appy this same critique to the qu'ran. Even if its written form has never been tampered with, how can you be sure the message wasn't screwed with before it was written down. Ever play the game telephone . How can you be sure that some of Muhammads followers didn't inject some of their own beliefs into the message?

Because the language in which it was written. It is in Arabic, but a form of Arabic that is very hard to tamper with. It is all poetic Arabic. Even people who spoke Arabic could not tamper with the Quran without it showing. The Quran is basically a book of poetry. That's why Muslims stand by it 100%.

I'm refering to before it was written down. If Muhammad did not write it then his followers had to memorize his whole message (the qu'ran) and eventually write it down. You can't be sure what got deleted and added while in the memory of fallible men.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: hscorpio

Wow, I didn't know that Muhammad didn't write the Qu'ran himself. This leads to some interesting questions.

One of the most common claims Muslims use against Christianity is that the bible is not trustworthy and has been messed with so much that it no longer contains the true message of God. Correct?

Somehow its hard to believe that muslims don't appy this same critique to the qu'ran. Even if its written form has never been tampered with, how can you be sure the message wasn't screwed with before it was written down. Ever play the game telephone . How can you be sure that some of Muhammads followers didn't inject some of their own beliefs into the message?

Because the language in which it was written. It is in Arabic, but a form of Arabic that is very hard to tamper with. It is all poetic Arabic. Even people who spoke Arabic could not tamper with the Quran without it showing. The Quran is basically a book of poetry. That's why Muslims stand by it 100%.

I'm refering to before it was written down. If Muhammad did not write it then his followers had to memorize his whole message (the qu'ran) and eventually write it down. You can't be sure what got deleted and added while in the memory of fallible men.

They memorized it word for word. Each member memorized their own part. Just like today. People memorize the entire Quran word for word. Don't ask me how they do it because I don't know. I can hardly memorize a paragraph.

I don't think they could have added anything. Those people weren't smart enough to add anything. A history of the people who wrote the Quran will show you they were low-class uneducated people. The way in which it was written is what is unique about it. It's a different form of writting that nobody in the region is used to. Nobody today is used to it.

Then you have to ask the question how did Mohammad get all this knowledge about the Torah, Bible if he could not read/write.

I too have aksed this similar question. I asked it the other day actually. That's the response I got. Surely someone else can better explain it for you.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
New Questions:
What does a muslim need to do in order to go to heaven? There is a heaven in Islam right?

Are most Islamic scholars in agreement to what needs to be done to be "saved"?

Please answer in your own words as a muslim. I can google for the answer myself, but I want to hear some original thoughts here. Yes I realize you guys aren't all Islamic scholars and expected you would need to do some research to answer my evolution questions, but these(above) questions should be common knowledge to all believers in Islam.

My personal views to your question:

The first question is a very loaded one. Basically following the Quran and Sunnah will grant Heaven to Muslims. Yes, there is a heaven in Islam. Here exists two aspects, obligations to God, and obligations to man, and for both, clear instructions exist in the Quran and Sunnah. Where there exists ambiguity, Muslims turn towards Ijma (scholarly rulings) and Qiyas (analogy).

Yes, most scholars are in agreement to what needs to be done to go to Heaven.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Aimster


Then you have to ask the question how did Mohammad get all this knowledge about the Torah, Bible if he could not read/write.

Or I might ask the question how did the authors of the Quran get all the knowledge of the Torah and Bible. Since whoever wrote it down must have been somewhat educated to be able to read & write. Maybe it is they who borrowed some of the knowledge of Judeo-Christianity and mixed it in with Muhamads message. There's no way to know for sure I don't think.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks
Question for Sultan:

Which sect of Islam do you follow Sultan?

None, I do not follow any particular sect. I follow the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah. The four main scholars, Hanafi, Malaki, Hunbul and Shafi have very comprehensive teachings, and I try to learn from their teachings with respect to the Quran and Sunnah.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: hscorpio
New Questions:
What does a muslim need to do in order to go to heaven? There is a heaven in Islam right?

Are most Islamic scholars in agreement to what needs to be done to be "saved"?

Please answer in your own words as a muslim. I can google for the answer myself, but I want to hear some original thoughts here. Yes I realize you guys aren't all Islamic scholars and expected you would need to do some research to answer my evolution questions, but these(above) questions should be common knowledge to all believers in Islam.

My personal views to your question:

The first question is a very loaded one. Basically following the Quran and Sunnah will grant Heaven to Muslims. Yes, there is a heaven in Islam. Here exists two aspects, obligations to God, and obligations to man, and for both, clear instructions exist in the Quran and Sunnah. Where there exists ambiguity, Muslims turn towards Ijma (scholarly rulings) and Qiyas (analogy).

Yes, most scholars are in agreement to what needs to be done to go to Heaven.

Thanks for answering.

Why is the question loaded?

I know that in some sects of Christianity the main thing a person must do is accept Jesus as the lord and saviour, accept that he died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected, and ask for forgivness etc. Since there is not really an equivalent to jesus in Islam I wanted to know what is the fundamental thing a Muslim must do/believe to go to heaven.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Wow, I didn't know that Muhammad didn't write the Qu'ran himself. This leads to some interesting questions.

One of the most common claims Muslims use against Christianity is that the bible is not trustworthy and has been messed with so much that it no longer contains the true message of God. Correct?

Somehow its hard to believe that muslims don't appy this same critique to the qu'ran. Even if its written form has never been tampered with, how can you be sure the message wasn't screwed with before it was written down. Ever play the game telephone . How can you be sure that some of Muhammads followers didn't inject some of their own beliefs into the message?

The memorization of the Quran has kept it to its true form. There are millions of Muslims who have memorized the Quran by heart. My youngest brother knows it end to end by heart. When revealed over a period of over 23 years, it was memorized by dozens, then hundreds of the Prophet's companion.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

So how long was the period from when Muhammad received his message completely to when it was first written down?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Thanks for answering.

Why is the question loaded?

I know that in some sects of Christianity the main thing a person must do is accept Jesus as the lord and saviour, accept that he died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected, and ask for forgivness etc. Since there is not really an equivalent to jesus in Islam I wanted to know what is the fundamental thing a Muslim must do/believe to go to heaven.

The question is loaded because I will need to basically list all the injunctions of the Quran and Sunnah to comprehensively answer your question

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
So how long was the period from when Muhammad received his message completely to when it was first written down?

Over 23 years of revelation completed the Quran.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Wahabism has gotten a bad rap. It is simply following the Qu'ran and Sunnah and Hadith as fully as possibly. I would consider myself to be a wahabi-lite. Sultan sounds like a wahabi to me as well.

Wahabism isn't killing everything that doesn't have a beard and the cloistering of women.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Another one;

What is the difference between the Qu'ran and a Sunnah? Actually what is Sunnah?

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: hscorpio
So how long was the period from when Muhammad received his message completely to when it was first written down?

Over 23 years of revelation completed the Quran.

So it was written down 23 years after Muhammad died then?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Wahabism has gotten a bad rap. It is simply following the Qu'ran and Sunnah and Hadith as fully as possibly. I would consider myself to be a wahabi-lite. Sultan sounds like a wahabi to me as well.

Wahabism isn't killing everything that doesn't have a beard and the cloistering of women.

No, I do not adhere to the Wahabi teachings. I do not disrespect it. Wahabis might follow conservative teaching, but they choose to do so willingly. As long as they dont impose their beliefs on others, more power to them.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Another one;

What is the difference between the Qu'ran and a Sunnah? Actually what is Sunnah?

The Quran is the word of God

Sunnah are the actions of the Holy Prophet. They expound on the teachings of the Quran where necessary. Other actions, which do not deal with the Quran, such as keeping a beard are also part of Sunnah, and though not obligatory, are recommended as the Prophet (S.A) is the best example for Muslims to follow.