The hunt for illegals is on.

[Sea Ray]

I pointed out that those working under the table mostly wouldn't be required to pay federal income taxes if they were above the table. They don't make enough money. That renders your so-called point immaterial.

You made no such statement in the post we're talking about. You said:

Please. Nearly half the households in this country pay no federal income tax, usually people in the same income bracket as illegals or higher. Illegals working under purloined SS#'s are subject to payroll taxes like everybody else. They also pay the same sales taxes & hidden taxes as the rest of us.

Their values & lifestyles are quite traditional. The men work & more of the women take traditional homemaker roles. They're generally religious & family oriented as well. Good strong conservative values.

 

[PokerGuy]

Your question is mostly non-sensical. The economic consequences of what has been proposed are pretty clear and rather stark. The US, including many many conservatives, have benefited handsomely from utilizing illegal labor but we seem intent on simply punishing the providers of that labor not the purchasers. To me this is a significant injustice and undermines any argument about "you don't want to enforce immigration laws" or the like.

I know I have said it many times before, as have many other conservatives: not only am I fine with also going after the purchasers/users of the illegal labor, it is a critical part of any reform effort. As long as major demand for illegal labor exist, there's going to be supply. We need to address both sides, not just try to deter the supply and keep them from coming over illegally. Create stiff penalties for people and businesses that knowingly use illegal labor, and enforce them. Having some business people get marched off into prison for employing illegals will do wonders toward convincing others not to do it.

 

[Jhhnn]

You made no such statement in the post we're talking about. You said:

Please. Nearly half the households in this country pay no federal income tax, usually people in the same income bracket as illegals or higher. Illegals working under purloined SS#'s are subject to payroll taxes like everybody else. They also pay the same sales taxes & hidden taxes as the rest of us.

Their values & lifestyles are quite traditional. The men work & more of the women take traditional homemaker roles. They're generally religious & family oriented as well. Good strong conservative values.

Tune up your reading comprehension skills. The issue was illegals paying taxes. In both statements I point out that illegals generally don't earn enough money to pay federal income tax even if they were legal. If you'd care to contradict that directly please do so.

 

[brandonbull]

What's your point ?

Hitler literally did start out the same way as the current administration is operating.

If you think otherwise, you're being obtuse.

And he did not have hydrogen bombs when he rose to power with the same promises Trump has made.

Hitler rose to power on a "Make Germany Great Again" agenda to begin with.

I do not even care if it is cliched, it is just a historical fact.

That's funny because the way the left/progressives are attempting to take over is the same way that Hitler and his gang operated when they took over Germany.

 

[Jhhnn]

That's funny because the way the left/progressives are attempting to take over is the same way that Hitler and his gang operated when they took over Germany.

Please. Repubs have built a bunker mentality in their base for decades. It's the standard template for authoritarianism, sometimes called fascism. Herman Goring said it well talking about War-

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY.

Attacked by hordes of drug dealing Mexican rapists. Millions of inner city blacks. Urban dwellers in general. Un-vetted Muslim immigrants. Kenyan usurper in the White House. Nuclear armed Evil Ayatollahs. Govt regulations. Taxes. Firearms regulations. Sharia Law. Jade Helm. All kinds of alarmist & truly stupid shit. Be afraid!

They're trying to convince us that there's a huge multi dimensional crisis that really doesn't exist & they've been doing it for decades. They paved the way for Trump to say this & to be believed-

I am your voice. I alone can fix it. I will restore law and order.

 

[Sea Ray]

Tune up your reading comprehension skills. The issue was illegals paying taxes. In both statements I point out that illegals generally don't earn enough money to pay federal income tax even if they were legal. If you'd care to contradict that directly please do so.

Must you always start out your posts with a personal insult? I can play the insult game with the best of them but I'm going to take the high road here and resist.

Once again we're talking two different things. You're talking illegals who have a false SS #. I'm talking about illegals "paid under the table"...in other words cash with no paper trail. Those illegals pay no FICA...a savings of 15% between the worker and the employer. As for FED income tax, we'll never know since it's all cash

 

[Jhhnn]

Must you always start out your posts with a personal insult? I can play the insult game with the best of them but I'm going to take the high road here and resist.

Once again we're talking two different things. You're talking illegals who have a false SS #. I'm talking about illegals "paid under the table"...in other words cash with no paper trail. Those illegals pay no FICA...a savings of 15% between the worker and the employer. As for FED income tax, we'll never know since it's all cash

The issue was federal income tax We should be able to agree that's a moot point considering illegals' incomes. if we gave 'em green cards & made 'em legal they wouldn't pay federal income taxes anyway nor likely state income taxes either. That's just math.

You point about payroll taxes depends on illegals as a group, not as individuals. It seems fairly obvious that many, many illegals (probably a strong majority) work under pilfered SS#'s & that they'll never receive benefits. They're the backbone of the fast food industry & construction as well. Their employers aren't just mom & pop but rather giant corporations who have to provide at least the appearance of propriety. You'd have to show a net loss to the system from illegals for your point to stand.

That & all the other counter arguments in this thread & from conservatives in general attempt to ignore what's obviously the most important thing about all of it which is ~4.5M American citizen children with at least one illegal parent. Will we do our best by them or can we fool ourselves into believing we're not obligated to do so? I think it's simply necessary to see to their welfare above all other considerations. Period. It's the only decent thing to do.

 

[shortylickens]

You just don't admit it, but ok.

I like weed and hate illegal aliens.

What side do you think I'm on?

 

[K1052]

I know I have said it many times before, as have many other conservatives: not only am I fine with also going after the purchasers/users of the illegal labor, it is a critical part of any reform effort. As long as major demand for illegal labor exist, there's going to be supply. We need to address both sides, not just try to deter the supply and keep them from coming over illegally. Create stiff penalties for people and businesses that knowingly use illegal labor, and enforce them. Having some business people get marched off into prison for employing illegals will do wonders toward convincing others not to do it.

The issue I've always had with that from a practical standpoint is that anybody above middle management will build in deniability. Sure you might send a few mid level paper pushers to the can for a couple years but corporate officers will never be sent up.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

I like weed and hate illegal aliens.

What side do you think I'm on?

I tolerate weed and like illegal aliens, i just wish they'd go back to their own countries and then return here legally. On your own side, as are we all.

 

[PokerGuy]

The issue I've always had with that from a practical standpoint is that anybody above middle management will build in deniability. Sure you might send a few mid level paper pushers to the can for a couple years but corporate officers will never be sent up.

That's not how it works. If I'm one of these 'mid level paper pushers' and I know my butt could land in a real jail, I"m going to make sure I have signatures from my boss before I do it. No way am I going to the slammer because of someone elses decisions to break the law. Also, corporate accountability isn't just about personal jail time for people, the corporation can be hit with hefty fines and penalties that could cripple the business. That's a very strong incentive not to do something. How do you think corporate tax enforcement works? Exact same mechanism, and it works.

It's not really a matter of can you do it, it's a matter of "do you have the political will to do it".

 

[Svnla]

I apologize if I've missed a question you asked of me. Please repeat.

The questions were not "directly addressed" to you but more to ILLEGALS supporters. Post 414 has some questions. There are more if you need more, such as "would the US need more LEGALS with skill, knowledge, know how for the economy of the future or more ILLEGAL peasants"?

 

[Sea Ray]

The issue was federal income tax We should be able to agree that's a moot point considering illegals' incomes. if we gave 'em green cards & made 'em legal they wouldn't pay federal income taxes anyway nor likely state income taxes either. That's just math.

You point about payroll taxes depends on illegals as a group, not as individuals. It seems fairly obvious that many, many illegals (probably a strong majority) work under pilfered SS#'s & that they'll never receive benefits. They're the backbone of the fast food industry & construction as well. Their employers aren't just mom & pop but rather giant corporations who have to provide at least the appearance of propriety. You'd have to show a net loss to the system from illegals for your point to stand.

That & all the other counter arguments in this thread & from conservatives in general attempt to ignore what's obviously the most important thing about all of it which is ~4.5M American citizen children with at least one illegal parent. Will we do our best by them or can we fool ourselves into believing we're not obligated to do so? I think it's simply necessary to see to their welfare above all other considerations. Period. It's the only decent thing to do.

The original issue was "paying taxes". FICA is a significant tax. Most Americans pay more in that than FED income tax.

I think we've settled this.

 

[Svnla]

Your question is mostly non-sensical. The economic consequences of what has been proposed are pretty clear and rather stark. The US, including many many conservatives, have benefited handsomely from utilizing illegal labor but we seem intent on simply punishing the providers of that labor not the purchasers. To me this is a significant injustice and undermines any argument about "you don't want to enforce immigration laws" or the like.

Your reply is nonsense. All I heard from you and ILLEGALS supporters are: think of the children, them ILLEGALS are beneficial to the US, and more excuses. If they are such beneficial to our economy, would more countries around the world open their doors/borders to have more ILLEGALS, eh? But alas, they would not. Must be because of "racist", "xenophobic", "stupid"? Did I miss any other insults?

My questions are still valid. Either we enforce the rules or we don't. Enough of excuses. If the last election did not teach you ILLEGALS supporters anything, then no amount of facts and logic can help y'all.

 

[K1052]

That's not how it works. If I'm one of these 'mid level paper pushers' and I know my butt could land in a real jail, I"m going to make sure I have signatures from my boss before I do it. No way am I going to the slammer because of someone elses decisions to break the law. Also, corporate accountability isn't just about personal jail time for people, the corporation can be hit with hefty fines and penalties that could cripple the business. That's a very strong incentive not to do something. How do you think corporate tax enforcement works? Exact same mechanism, and it works.

It's not really a matter of can you do it, it's a matter of "do you have the political will to do it".

If you won't do it they'll find somebody who will. It's not like this doesn't happen all the time. There is no political will to impose the kind of requirements you're talking about anyway, which is as good as being impossible.

 

[K1052]

Your reply is nonsense. All I heard from you and ILLEGALS supporters are: think of the children, them ILLEGALS are beneficial to the US, and more excuses. If they are such beneficial to our economy, would more countries around the world open their doors/borders to have more ILLEGALS, eh? But alas, they would not. Must be because of "racist", "xenophobic", "stupid"? Did I miss any other insults?

My questions are still valid. Either we enforce the rules or we don't. Enough of excuses. If the last election did not teach you ILLEGALS supporters anything, then no amount of facts and logic can help y'all.

Why are you putting words into quotes that I didn't say? Also laying off the caps would probable help you not to sound like a crazy person.

The "if they are so valuable then why don't other countries want them" argument is moot since they are currently part of our economy and have been in many cases for decades. Trying to undo this by force will have vast negative economic and political consequences that a lot of people don't seem to have really thought out but are starting to occur to them.

 

[Svnla]

Why are you putting words into quotes that I didn't say? Also laying off the caps would probable help you not to sound like a crazy person.

The "if they are so valuable then why don't other countries want them" argument is moot since they are currently part of our economy and have been in many cases for decades. Trying to undo this by force will have vast negative economic and political consequences that a lot of people don't seem to have really thought out but are starting to occur to them.

I want to make it clear, while you did not say those words in quotes, there are plenty of ILLEGALS supporters that say those words in this thread/forum/site or elsewhere to silence any critic of their love and support for ILLEGALS.

See this post of why I put the word "ILLEGALS" all in CAPS = https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...camps-to-follow.2499736/page-12#post-38756448

I don't believe in deportation of all 11 million of ILLEGALS (some would say more than 11M) the next day. The problem did not start within a few days and it won't take just a few days to solve it. There are some good suggestions in this thread of what to do with them ILLEGALS but to give them another amnesty..aka comprehensive immigration reform is not just a no but a hell no. To do that is just a big F*CK you in the face of million and million of LEGALS that are waiting in vain for years and years to do the right way. Is that how it is in America now? Do it the right way? F*CK YOU. Do it the ILLEGAL way? Come on in you poor thing.

Why there is so little discussion of the flight and hardship of the LEGALS? Why you guys are such a hard on to suck up to them ILLEGALS?

 

[Vic]

If this hasn't already been mentioned before, Trump's plan of mass deportation of illegals has 2 major hurdles in front of it.
First, the immigration courts are already backlogged. Trump's latest EO on this makes the assumption that he will be able to go around the courts, I see that as unlikely.
Second, Mexico and the other home countries are not going to accept these deportees in many cases.
On the issue of camps, I know most people see that as hyperbole, but the reality is that 'immigration detention centers' have already existed for several years.

 

[K1052]

Why there is so little discussion of the flight and hardship of the LEGALS? Why you guys are such a hard on to suck up to them ILLEGALS?

Now that you mention it the current administration also appears to want to reduce legal immigration. A lot of nativist sentiment has been whipped up here and it isn't going to help us at all.

 

[PokerGuy]

If you won't do it they'll find somebody who will. It's not like this doesn't happen all the time.

That's just plain wrong, in fact there is plenty of proof this mechanism works just fine, as I said, it's how corporate taxes are enforced today. As an additional bonus, if your boss forces you to do it anyway, you can even report it to the right regulatory body and collect a reward. The argument that it wouldn't be effective is baloney -- it's how all corporate regulations are enforced. If you don't think it works, then no corporate regulations work, which is obviously nonsense.

There is no political will to impose the kind of requirements you're talking about anyway, which is as good as being impossible.

On this we agree, I don't think there's the political will to do it, but that has to be part of any successful attempt to tackle the problem of illegal immigration.

 

[K1052]

Second, Mexico and the other home countries are not going to accept these deportees in many cases.
On the issue of camps, I know most people see that as hyperbole, but the reality is that 'immigration detention centers' have already existed for several years.

Particularly if they are not Mexican nationals and the current plan appears to be to dump everybody there regardless of nationality. The Mexican government already said nope to that.

 

[PokerGuy]

If this hasn't already been mentioned before, Trump's plan of mass deportation of illegals has 2 major hurdles in front of it.
First, the immigration courts are already backlogged. Trump's latest EO on this makes the assumption that he will be able to go around the courts, I see that as unlikely.

Easily solved: increase the number of judges and staff needed to meet the demand. I believe Trump already did that as part of his budget (remember reading it, but can't find the link right now).

Second, Mexico and the other home countries are not going to accept these deportees in many cases.
On the issue of camps, I know most people see that as hyperbole, but the reality is that 'immigration detention centers' have already existed for several years.

Again, very easy. If you have an actual wall, you just open the door and put them on the other side. If Mexico has a problem with it, then they can stop them from coming through in the first place. If the political will to do it isn't there, then there's also the option to just build a lot of big detention centers as needed. That will still be a big deterrent for others when they see that illegally crossing over will likely land you in a detention center for a long time while waiting for proceedings.

 

[K1052]

That's just plain wrong, in fact there is plenty of proof this mechanism works just fine, as I said, it's how corporate taxes are enforced today. As an additional bonus, if your boss forces you to do it anyway, you can even report it to the right regulatory body and collect a reward. The argument that it wouldn't be effective is baloney -- it's how all corporate regulations are enforced. If you don't think it works, then no corporate regulations work, which is obviously nonsense.

If it actually worked then massive corporate scandals would basically be extinct. Instead corps do all sorts of illegal shit and try to stamp out any whistleblowers that show up. Given he bent of the current administration I'm expecting change but going in the other direction.

 

[Vic]

Easily solved: increase the number of judges and staff needed to meet the demand. I believe Trump already did that as part of his budget (remember reading it, but can't find the link right now).



Again, very easy. If you have an actual wall, you just open the door and put them on the other side. If Mexico has a problem with it, then they can stop them from coming through in the first place. If the political will to do it isn't there, then there's also the option to just build a lot of big detention centers as needed. That will still be a big deterrent for others when they see that illegally crossing over will likely land you in a detention center for a long time while waiting for proceedings.

Your abilities at magical thinking are quite remarkable.

 

[Sea Ray]

If this hasn't already been mentioned before, Trump's plan of mass deportation of illegals has 2 major hurdles in front of it.
First, the immigration courts are already backlogged. Trump's latest EO on this makes the assumption that he will be able to go around the courts, I see that as unlikely.
Second, Mexico and the other home countries are not going to accept these deportees in many cases.
On the issue of camps, I know most people see that as hyperbole, but the reality is that 'immigration detention centers' have already existed for several years.

You make a good point that's not talked about enough. Trump can't deport people for jaywalking. Anyone that he's deporting right now must already have a deportation order against them.