The Holocaust

[snooker]

Originally posted by: zoiks
dude give it up already.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.

There are times when the current government holds enough pressure against its own people that they lack the ability to do anything about it.
. . .
Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".

Not easily, nor cheaply, but there are over 22 million citizens, so they outnumber the Republican Guard by 5,000 to 1. If the citizens cared enough they could overrun the Guard and sieze their weapons. The citizens of Iraq are not opposed to Saddam enough to be willing to die to remove him.

Again, I'm not saying that it isn't better for, say, 500 American soldiers to die to free Iraq instead of 10,000 Iraqi citizens dying to free themselves. Just that there is an element of free will in their plight.

Look what happens to those who try to organize opposition. You don't know who you can trust, who will tell the guard. Just like in Nazi Germany. If you see your neighbour carefully voice a word of protest, and is then forced to watch all his male family members killed before his eyes, his female family members (no exclusion for age) raped repeatedly before they are killed, and then is tortured to death himself, would you be the next person to raise your voice against the regime? You may not like it, but unless you want the same to happen to your family you will remain quiet.
For so many to act at the same time requires a lot of communication and organisation. If you have no weapons, are weak from hunger, and have no means of organising something like that, you may just as well kill yourself immediately. The population lives in fear. Not only for themselves, but also for all those they love and care about. That makes it much harder to act.

Compare the situation with Israel. If a Palestinian suicide bomber blows up people the Israeli army wont kill his family. Their house will get destroyed, but they will get help from others after that. They therefor have nothing to fear when doing something like that. If Israel started killing families of suicide bombers there would be an international outcry, but it would most likely scare off a lot of people.

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: etech
Thera

A very popular joke in the US during the 1940's was:

Q- How do you fit 40 Jews in a VW?
A- You put them in the ash tray.

It's a sick joke but it also sounds like complete BS.

VW's were not imported to the States in the 40s. Americans would not know the slang VW for Volkswagen at that time. You'll have to prove that statement to me. I don't believe it.

edit/
1949 - January 17th, First official Beetle was bought in America by Ben Pon.

You don't have to believe me. Talk to anyone over 60-70 years old. If you're denying the existence of rampant US antisemtism during that time period you're simply wrong.

BTW, a car doesn't need to be sold in the US for jokes to be made about it. Not to mention it's a poor excuse for an argument.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
For my own thoughts...

This all started before the war, 6 years before in fact, in 1933. The world knew for a long time that Germany was committing crimes against humanity for 6 years and did nothing.

I am no historian but as far as I know, the world did not really know (want to know) until they really saw it. Same for most of the german population. At least thats what they say...

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27

Originally posted by: zoiks
dude give it up already.

It is a shame that so many people don't seem to care about their fellow human beings...

What's interesting is that the US had no problem with the Jews being killed. It was only much later that they "added" it to the list of reasons why Germany was bad.

A very popular joke in the US during the 1940's was:

Q- How do you fit 40 Jews in a VW?
A- You put them in the ash tray.

If you ask me that's fricken sick, and that's just one example. So before you get on your high horse about America being so "just" ask yourself why it sat by and made fun of the Jews being killed in Germany.

Didn't a Rep from Congress state that: "1 jew immigrating to the US is 1 too many"

It was a clear example of antisemtism that ran through the US gov. during WWII.

Antisemitism was rampant in that time also in england and France just nobody turned sicko-devil like the Nazis

 

[alexruiz]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

The reasons we are attacking Iraq are the wrong reasons. We should be doing it because the Iraqi people deserve to be free, to have control over their own destiny, to have a say in their own government. WMD and oil are not (or shouldn't be) the main issues, freedom should be.

I mostly agree, though I'm swayed by a counter-argument by science fiction author L. E. Modesitt (not sure if he got it from someone else):

He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't intefere, just that the oppressed people around the world are to some extent oppressed because they don't care enough to free themselves.

Consider when Yeltsin and his people stopped Russia from returning to Communism during the coup attempt. They didn't have the military force to stop the coup, they just had enough of the populace willing to stand with them. They earned their ownn freedom, though the populace has been sliding back towards support of authoritarianism in the hope that it will magically fix the economy.

Awesome post Dave!!! I totally agree about it. A keg of beer has been shipped to your location

You found the magic phrase "some just don't want to pay that price, or maybe are not ready yet..... Time will fix it"

 

[Moonbeam]

"It is a shame that so many people don't seem to care about their fellow human beings..."

It's the killing people to save them that's hard to take, or saving one bunch cause you need their oil and ignoring another because you already got their oil.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that the Third Reich would occupy or influence during World War II. By 1945, close to two out of every three European Jews had been killed as part of the "Final Solution"

Before beginning the war in 1939, the Nazis established concentration camps to imprison Jews, Roma, other victims of ethnic and racial hatred, and political opponents of Nazism.

Children were especially vulnerable victims of the Nazis. It is estimated that over one million children were murdered under Nazi rule in Germany and occupied Europe.

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

For my own thoughts...

This all started before the war, 6 years before in fact, in 1933. The world knew for a long time that Germany was committing crimes against humanity for 6 years and did nothing.

Today we know a number of nations around the world are still committing such crimes, yet again we do nothing. For example, in 1994 over 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda were systematically murdered in a campaign to exterminate their entire race. The world did nothing.

Today, North Korea's leader keeps his people impoverished to the point where an estimated 2 million people have starved in the past 10 years. The world sends food which doesn't get to those who need it, instead it goes to the military. The world does nothing to ensure those who are starving actually get the food. It only pays attention when its own self-interests are at stake.

It should be the responsibility of free nations to ensure this is not allowed to continue. The free world must take action to put a stop to all such violence and killing. No national borders can be allowed to hide and protect those who commit genocide against humanity.

I can think of no greater gift to give to my children than a world free from dictators and despots. That is a fight and a crusade that I would be willing to take on, if only our leaders were willing to commit to it. FDR saw the dangers of Hitler long before the rest of America and long before much of the world. Kennedy saw the dangers of Cuba years before everyone else. It is time that we see the danger of allowing dictators and despots to remain in power anywhere in the world. Our own national borders no longer protect us, their national borders should provide no refuge from our liberation.

This post, from Grasshopper?


I'm impressed. While I agree with you on the objective, it is sad to note that whenever our country does do something "good," it always seems to be laced with its own intentions. That goes for most large countries these days, not just ours. Why did we not care about Rwanda, but 'cared' so much about the Kurds and other oppressed minorities in the middle east? Oil.

We spent perhaps billions of dollars on dropping bombs in Afghanistan - have we stopped Al Qaeda yet? Do we have Osama Bin Laden? No. With all this focus on Iraq and to a lesser extent N. Korea, I'm beginning to wonder if the Bush administration has either a) forgotten about Bin Laden or b) Doesn't care. Hmmmm let see, we go there to finish al qaeda and bin laden, yet we don't achieve that. The one thing we do achieve is installing a new leader for that country, oh yeah, and by the way, he is an ex-UNOCAL consultant.

I want us (and other free nations) to spend money, give time, and spill blood for a good cause (i'm not a peace lover by any means (i'm actually kind of violent), i believe in war when i think it is justified), but we all have to do it with a big heart, and not try to turn other people's misfortunes into opportunities for us.

This is a good article on the real winners of the war in Afghanistan.

Article

 

[JShaker]

The Holocaust

Never happened.

 

[AvesPKS]

Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".

Hopper

I agree he was under different circumstances...but Gandhi did.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: AvesPKS

Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".

Hopper

I agree he was under different circumstances...but Gandhi did.

The regime in India was not a dictatorship. The English regime did not want bad publicity.

If someone tries such a thing in Iraq, the stuff I mentioned would happen to him and his family.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: JShaker

The Holocaust

Never happened.

Tell that to half of my relatives on fathers side who were killed in Auschwitz. Fvck you.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: JShaker

The Holocaust

Never happened.

Tell that to half of my relatives on fathers side who were killed in Auschwitz. Fvck you.

There are A LOT of ignorant ppl on this board.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: JShaker

The Holocaust

Never happened.

Tell that to half of my relatives on fathers side who were killed in Auschwitz. Fvck you.

There are A LOT of ignorant ppl on this board.

Yeah, I realize this moron and his ilk post like this to try to get a reaction, but it just pisses me off too much to hear f-tards spew like this.

 

[SherEPunjab]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: SherEPunjab

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: JShaker

The Holocaust

Never happened.

Tell that to half of my relatives on fathers side who were killed in Auschwitz. Fvck you.

There are A LOT of ignorant ppl on this board.

Yeah, I realize this moron and his ilk post like this to try to get a reaction, but it just pisses me off too much to hear f-tards spew like this.

to be honest, i never knew computer geeks existed that have the same mentality of east texas rednecks.

 

[Night201]

In the words of Nixon, "I smell a Jew"

 

[Moonbeam]

It's really interesting to speculate on freedom of speech issues the holocaust brings up. I think in Germany it's illegal to be a Nazi or to say bad sh!t about Jews. I don't know exactly, but I'm pretty sure they don't have our freedom of speech we do here in the US. Over here we got to oppose every nutcase that comes along who says the holocaust never happened or the world is flat etc. It's a good system, but it's a drag. The supply of morons is endless and you chop down one and another pops up to take his place. And a lot of times it's just the perversion of being mean. Now when you stack up the six million dead and really think about it, why should we tolerate this crap. It seems so reasonable that lies that have killed six million people and pitched the world into world war with maybe 50 million just shouldn't be able to squeek related lies. God how tempting it is to want to wield a richeous sword and lop off heads. How hard it is to love. How very hard it is. How can we not be certain for look how dangerous we are when we are?

 

[vladgur]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
God how tempting it is to want to wield a richeous sword and lop off heads. How hard it is to love. How very hard it is. How can we not be certain for look how dangerous we are when we are?

This statement(s) reminded me of movie Frailty.....
Sorry for being OT^2

 

[vladgur]

Let me throw an uneducated guess here:
how did "FDR saw the dangers of Hitler long before the rest of America and long before much of the world. " Are you saying that he saw the dangers of hitler before say Chechoslovakia or Poland? Lets not give more credit than that which is deserved. AFAIK, FDR and the US did not respond untill their "own" island was attacked. even though the war was going on for several years already.
Id love to have US military power liberate the world, but the truth of the matter it seems that the world is growing weary of American influence. Maybe its time to sit back and wait for the world to come begging for help instead of actively trying to help them.

As far as Iraq goes, I think that if we see any imminent danger we should deal with it swiftly, but those ambigous threats only make us loose credibility. Remember in early 80s when Iraq started building a nuclear power plants whose byproducts could be used for nuclear weapons and israeli planes destroyed it overnight? The world didnt like it, the UN didnt like it, the US didnt like it, but israel said sorry, its a threat to our national security and thus we deal with it. I hope our government will have the guts to remain quiet(but active) until such a threat is discovered and then eliminated it with a response similar to that of Israel instead of doing this loudmouthing on war with Iraq.....

 

[vladgur]

On a serious note though, cant we just discuss cheating spouses, virginity and getting back into shape instead of all this real world crap?

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Alphazero
WWI killed 20 million. WWII cost 55 million lives, most of them Russian (~20 million). 55 million people!

Irony is that now the French, Russians, Germans, and liberal peaceniks in the US literally have fits when a smart bomb goes off course and hits an unintended target, killing a few civilians in the process.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Alphazero
WWI killed 20 million. WWII cost 55 million lives, most of them Russian (~20 million). 55 million people!

Irony is that now the French, Russians, Germans, and liberal peaceniks in the US literally have fits when a smart bomb goes off course and hits an unintended target, killing a few civilians in the process.

?

I'm sure you wouldn't mind being one of those "few civilians"?

 

[Nemesis77]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Alphazero
WWI killed 20 million. WWII cost 55 million lives, most of them Russian (~20 million). 55 million people!

Irony is that now the French, Russians, Germans, and liberal peaceniks in the US literally have fits when a smart bomb goes off course and hits an unintended target, killing a few civilians in the process.

the accuracy of the smart-bombs have been greate exaggarated. Yes they are more accurate than normal bombs. But still, in the Gulf war, most of the smart-bombs missed their intended target. If I remember correctly, the accuracy of smart-bombs was about 30-40% (in Yugoslavia and Afganistan that increased to about 60%). And besides, vast majority of the bombs were NOT smart-bombs. Smart-bombs accounted for under 10% of all bombs dropped.

 

[0roo0roo]

yup... sad. europe is all about being happy with the status quo, whining about stuff fine of course. they don't ask for permission when they do their business. french in ivory coast? russia in chechnia? un resolutions? hah! europe was wrong before, what makes them think they are right now. if the had their way hitler would have won, no question. paralysis is good...all you do is whine, and when someone else tries to do something you can find fault even as you do nothing yourself.

 

[aphex]

Originally posted by: JShaker

The Holocaust

Never happened.

Did your mom drop you as a kid? Or is this ignorant stupidity a recent addition?