The Holocaust

Grasshopper27

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The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that the Third Reich would occupy or influence during World War II. By 1945, close to two out of every three European Jews had been killed as part of the "Final Solution"

Before beginning the war in 1939, the Nazis established concentration camps to imprison Jews, Roma, other victims of ethnic and racial hatred, and political opponents of Nazism.

Children were especially vulnerable victims of the Nazis. It is estimated that over one million children were murdered under Nazi rule in Germany and occupied Europe.

United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

For my own thoughts...

This all started before the war, 6 years before in fact, in 1933. The world knew for a long time that Germany was committing crimes against humanity for 6 years and did nothing.

Today we know a number of nations around the world are still committing such crimes, yet again we do nothing. For example, in 1994 over 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda were systematically murdered in a campaign to exterminate their entire race. The world did nothing.

Today, North Korea's leader keeps his people impoverished to the point where an estimated 2 million people have starved in the past 10 years. The world sends food which doesn't get to those who need it, instead it goes to the military. The world does nothing to ensure those who are starving actually get the food. It only pays attention when its own self-interests are at stake.

It should be the responsibility of free nations to ensure this is not allowed to continue. The free world must take action to put a stop to all such violence and killing. No national borders can be allowed to hide and protect those who commit genocide against humanity.

I can think of no greater gift to give to my children than a world free from dictators and despots. That is a fight and a crusade that I would be willing to take on, if only our leaders were willing to commit to it. FDR saw the dangers of Hitler long before the rest of America and long before much of the world. Kennedy saw the dangers of Cuba years before everyone else. It is time that we see the danger of allowing dictators and despots to remain in power anywhere in the world. Our own national borders no longer protect us, their national borders should provide no refuge from our liberation.
 

ElFenix

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Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

the problem with that is that it ignores all the other groups that were in that 6 million.
 

Grasshopper27

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Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.
the problem with that is that it ignores all the other groups that were in that 6 million.
No, there were actually about 3 million more murdered, the 6 million were all jews.

All told, nearly 10 million men, women, and children were exterminated by the Nazi regime. This is more people than were killed in the whole of the first World War.
 

DaveSimmons

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The reasons we are attacking Iraq are the wrong reasons. We should be doing it because the Iraqi people deserve to be free, to have control over their own destiny, to have a say in their own government. WMD and oil are not (or shouldn't be) the main issues, freedom should be.
I mostly agree, though I'm swayed by a counter-argument by science fiction author L. E. Modesitt (not sure if he got it from someone else):

He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't intefere, just that the oppressed people around the world are to some extent oppressed because they don't care enough to free themselves.

Consider when Yeltsin and his people stopped Russia from returning to Communism during the coup attempt. They didn't have the military force to stop the coup, they just had enough of the populace willing to stand with them. They earned their ownn freedom, though the populace has been sliding back towards support of authoritarianism in the hope that it will magically fix the economy.
 

Grasshopper27

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Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.
There are times when the current government holds enough pressure against its own people that they lack the ability to do anything about it.

Saddam keeps his people in line via misinformation, control of the media, fear, intimidation, and very brutal tactics. You say anything whatsoever against the government and you may well be burned alive in the streets for all to see.

You do that a hundred times and very quickly no one says a word against you.

Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".

Hopper
 

DaveSimmons

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Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.
There are times when the current government holds enough pressure against its own people that they lack the ability to do anything about it.
. . .
Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".
Not easily, nor cheaply, but there are over 22 million citizens, so they outnumber the Republican Guard by 5,000 to 1. If the citizens cared enough they could overrun the Guard and sieze their weapons. The citizens of Iraq are not opposed to Saddam enough to be willing to die to remove him.

Again, I'm not saying that it isn't better for, say, 500 American soldiers to die to free Iraq instead of 10,000 Iraqi citizens dying to free themselves. Just that there is an element of free will in their plight.
 

TheWart

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Actually, Hitler did not make the decision to kill (he already had deported them) Western European Jews until later on in the war, after the Barbarossa campaign and the work of the SS Einsatzgruppen in Russia.

Nonetheless, the anti-semetic views of the Nazi party were widely known, but how far he would actually go was not. You must remember, there were highranking nazi's who were not supportive of mass extermination.

I am in NO way saying the nazi party wasnt bad and all that, just that the movement to eradicate western jews did not began until later on.
 

Chadder007

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Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.
There are times when the current government holds enough pressure against its own people that they lack the ability to do anything about it.
. . .
Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".
Not easily, nor cheaply, but there are over 22 million citizens, so they outnumber the Republican Guard by 5,000 to 1. If the citizens cared enough they could overrun the Guard and sieze their weapons. The citizens of Iraq are not opposed to Saddam enough to be willing to die to remove him.

Again, I'm not saying that it isn't better for, say, 500 American soldiers to die to free Iraq instead of 10,000 Iraqi citizens dying to free themselves. Just that there is an element of free will in their plight.

Their people have no will left it seems.
 

adlep

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Why we should give it up already?
We should never forget. Everytime when I think about it, I am grateful to God that I didn't have to live back then!
 

43st

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Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: zoiks
dude give it up already.
It is a shame that so many people don't seem to care about their fellow human beings... :(

What's interesting is that the US had no problem with the Jews being killed. It was only much later that they "added" it to the list of reasons why Germany was bad.

A very popular joke in the US during the 1940's was:

Q- How do you fit 40 Jews in a VW?
A- You put them in the ash tray.

If you ask me that's fricken sick, and that's just one example. So before you get on your high horse about America being so "just" ask yourself why it sat by and made fun of the Jews being killed in Germany.
 

etech

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Iron Woode

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Originally posted by: Thera
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: zoiks
dude give it up already.
It is a shame that so many people don't seem to care about their fellow human beings... :(

What's interesting is that the US had no problem with the Jews being killed. It was only much later that they "added" it to the list of reasons why Germany was bad.

A very popular joke in the US during the 1940's was:

Q- How do you fit 40 Jews in a VW?
A- You put them in the ash tray.

If you ask me that's fricken sick, and that's just one example. So before you get on your high horse about America being so "just" ask yourself why it sat by and made fun of the Jews being killed in Germany.
Didn't a Rep from Congress state that: "1 jew immigrating to the US is 1 too many"

It was a clear example of antisemtism that ran through the US gov. during WWII.

 

Alphazero

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Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.
the problem with that is that it ignores all the other groups that were in that 6 million.
No, there were actually about 3 million more murdered, the 6 million were all jews.

All told, nearly 10 million men, women, and children were exterminated by the Nazi regime. This is more people than were killed in the whole of the first World War.

WWI killed 20 million. WWII cost 55 million lives, most of them Russian (~20 million). 55 million people! We've been learning about WWII and the Holocaust for quite a while at school, including a trip to Poland. It's a difficult subject, almost unbelievable.

I completely agree with your first post - the saddest thing is that attrocities of this kind are still happening all over the world. Just last week there was a series of articles in Newsweek about labour camps in North Korea. Change the names, and it sounds like any story straight from Dachau or Majdanek. Not to mention all the genocide we've seen in the past 60 years. "Never again" is a load of BS. Sometimes global politics just makes me sick.

Edit: BTW, modern research indicates that the number of Jews killed is greater than the preliminary post-war estimates. The number is likely closer to 7 million.
 

Phuz

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Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
He argues that a people are responsible for their own government, and that they do support whatever government they have by (if nothing else) passively accepting it. In other words, the people of Iraq could remove Saddam themselves if enough of them wanted it done badly enough. Saddam remaining in power shows that the majority of Iraqis don't want freedom or democracy badly enough to pay the price for it.
There are times when the current government holds enough pressure against its own people that they lack the ability to do anything about it.
. . .
Saddam has the 40,000 strong Republican Guard to protect him, they get well paid and well fed at the expense of the average Iraqi citizen. They have all the guns, all the tanks, all the food, and all the power. You can't fight that with "willpower".
Not easily, nor cheaply, but there are over 22 million citizens, so they outnumber the Republican Guard by 5,000 to 1. If the citizens cared enough they could overrun the Guard and sieze their weapons. The citizens of Iraq are not opposed to Saddam enough to be willing to die to remove him.


Yeah, its called a revolution, and if it was going to happen, it would have happened by now.