The HD Format War Thread

[Ricochet]

Well, if anyone come across an A35 (Toshiba's top of the line) for $100, let me know. I could use a 2nd player.

 

[Shawn]

This sucks. Looks like I may be switching back to Blockbuster Online.

 

[spacejamz]

first netflix earlier, and now this??? will the bad news for HD DVD ever stop????

Text

Best Buy to Recommend Blu-ray as the Customer's Digital Format Choice

February 11, 2008 3:31 PM EST

MINNEAPOLIS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--

Best Buy Co., Inc. (NYSE: BBY) is taking a step forward in addressing consumer confusion about high-definition formats. Beginning in early March, the leading consumer electronics retailer will prominently showcase Blu-ray hardware and software products in its Best Buy retail and online channels in the United States.

"Consumers have told us that they want us to help lead the way. We've listened to our customers, and we are responding. Best Buy will recommend Blu-ray as the preferred format," said Brian Dunn, Best Buy's president and chief operating officer. "Our decision to shine a spotlight on Blu-ray Disc players and other Blu-ray products is a strong signal to our customers that we believe Blu-ray is the right format choice for them."

Dunn continued, "Best Buy has always believed that the customer will benefit from a widely-accepted single format that would offer advantages such as product compatibility and expanded content choices. Because we believe that Blu-ray is fast emerging as that single format, we have decided to focus on Blu-ray products."

"With the explosion of HDTVs, customers are hungry for quality, high definition content. We believe our move to feature Blu-ray should help consumers feel confident in their hi-def content choices," said Mike Vitelli, Best Buy's senior vice president, Home Solutions. "Best Buy is excited by the next generation of digital products and we know our customers are too. We are excited about helping customers find the right mix of products and services to make the next generation of high definition entertainment technology come alive for them. We believe that Blu-ray is the right solution for consumers."

Best Buy currently carries a wide array of Blu-ray hardware and software products. The company noted that it will continue to carry an assortment of HD-DVD products for customers who desire to purchase these products.

About Best Buy Co., Inc.

Best Buy Co., Inc. (NYSE: BBY) operates a global portfolio of brands with a commitment to growth and innovation. Our employees strive to provide customers around the world with superior experiences by responding to their unique needs and aspirations. We sell consumer electronics, home-office products, entertainment software, appliances and related services through nearly 1,300 retail stores across the United States, throughout Canada and in China. Our multi-channel operations include: Best Buy (BestBuy.com, BestBuy.ca and BestBuy.com.cn), Future Shop (FutureShop.ca), Geek Squad (GeekSquad.com and GeekSquad.ca), Pacific Sales Kitchen and Bath Centers (PacificSales.com), Magnolia Audio Video (Magnoliaav.com), Jiangsu Five Star Appliance Co. (Five-Star.cn) and Speakeasy (Speakeasy.net). Best Buy supports the communities in which its employees work and live through volunteerism and grants that benefit children and education.

Source: Best Buy Co., Inc.

 

[erwos]

The Best Buy news may or may not be damning to HD-DVD. Depends on whether corporate made the decision on their own, or whether this is just a marketing stunt that the BR Group paid for. In the latter case, this is just hot air. In the former, it could be trouble, as it'll mean less and less HD-DVD stuff stocked.

Still, it's not good news for HD-DVD. One more studio defection, and it's basically over at this point.

 

[jpeyton]

I hope its over sooner than that. The HDM market really needs to quash HD DVD and get all the studios on board with Blu-Ray before holiday season 2008 begins.

 

[JC86]

Originally posted by: erwos
The Best Buy news may or may not be damning to HD-DVD. Depends on whether corporate made the decision on their own, or whether this is just a marketing stunt that the BR Group paid for. In the latter case, this is just hot air. In the former, it could be trouble, as it'll mean less and less HD-DVD stuff stocked.

Still, it's not good news for HD-DVD. One more studio defection, and it's basically over at this point.

Since most consumers take what BB tells them with a grain of salt anyways, I don't think it'd be that big of a deal. The Netflix announcement, however, is a much bigger score for the BR group. I wonder if the BR group cut them a deal for cheaper BR movies to stock in exchange for the exclusive agreement.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: JC86

Originally posted by: erwos
The Best Buy news may or may not be damning to HD-DVD. Depends on whether corporate made the decision on their own, or whether this is just a marketing stunt that the BR Group paid for. In the latter case, this is just hot air. In the former, it could be trouble, as it'll mean less and less HD-DVD stuff stocked.

Still, it's not good news for HD-DVD. One more studio defection, and it's basically over at this point.

Since most consumers take what BB tells them with a grain of salt anyways, I don't think it'd be that big of a deal. The Netflix announcement, however, is a much bigger score for the BR group. I wonder if the BR group cut them a deal for cheaper BR movies to stock in exchange for the exclusive agreement.

Last Oct, Best Buy was identified as the leading seller of High Definition hardware/software...they were significantly ahead of Amazon, Walmart and Circuit City.

Although they are perceived here as being dumb, mindless drones, alot of people shop there, oblivious to their higher prices and policies...

As part of this announcement (according to bluray.com), Best Buy is going to reduce their hardware and software inventories, making it harder for consumers to purchase HD DVD items.

 

[Wreckage]

I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

 

[Wuzup101]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

QFT... here's to hoping that I can score some good HD-DVDs on clearance before they go out of style!

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

 

[spacejamz]

Here is the HD DVD response to today's events:

"We have long held the belief that HD DVD is the best format for consumers based on quality and value, and with more than 1 million HD DVD players on the market, it's unfortunate to see Netflix make the decision to only stock Blu-ray titles going forward. While the Best Buy announcement says they will recommend Blu-ray, at least they will continue to carry HD DVD and offer consumers a choice at retail."

I think a 5th grader could have worded a better response (no offense to any 5th graders)...has Toshiba given up????

in their official release, they actually say "...at least they will continue to carry HD DVD"...that really shows a sign of confidence there if you ask me...

 

[TheVrolok]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

sigh, I don't think you realize how it must be equally annoying to hear the Blu-ray supports gloat. That said, I STILL think HD-DVD is superior to BRD in many ways (read: in deserving of praise). Just because HD-DVD lost the war does not indicate it to be the inferior format. Look at beta and vhs for proof of that.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: spacejamz
in their official release, they actually say "...at least they will continue to carry HD DVD"...that really shows a sign of confidence there if you ask me...

More confidence than their CES presentation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLi-eCaGik

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

For the past 3 years, Amir was infallible at AVS, his word was their gospel. And along the way they pissed off a whole lot of people, both regular users and industry insiders, for nothing more than having even a slight preference for Blu-ray. I'm sure it just takes time to reverse that much marketing disguised as insider information.


And a little history for nothing more than to just point it out:
http://www.dailytech.com/HD+DV...Format/article3059.htm

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

sigh, I don't think you realize how it must be equally annoying to hear the Blu-ray supports gloat. That said, I STILL think HD-DVD is superior to BRD in many ways (read: in deserving of praise). Just because HD-DVD lost the war does not indicate it to be the inferior format. Look at beta and vhs for proof of that.

These are the sales numbers since the beginning of the year.

01/06 463K
01/13 379K
01/20 241K
01/27 216K
02/03 199K

Makes you wonder who really won. 200K units a week wont cut the butter. Seems like the warner effect has had an opposite effect than intended. Should be interesting to see how the numbers fair for the next 6 months. I expect them to rebound, but they have a ways to go.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

sigh, I don't think you realize how it must be equally annoying to hear the Blu-ray supports gloat. That said, I STILL think HD-DVD is superior to BRD in many ways (read: in deserving of praise). Just because HD-DVD lost the war does not indicate it to be the inferior format. Look at beta and vhs for proof of that.

These are the sales numbers since the beginning of the year.

01/06 463K
01/13 379K
01/20 241K
01/27 216K
02/03 199K

Makes you wonder who really won. 200K units a week wont cut the butter. Seems like the warner effect has had an opposite effect than intended. Should be interesting to see how the numbers fair for the next 6 months. I expect them to rebound, but they have a ways to go.

everyone knows that sales in Jan fall off drastically after the holiday season ends...

look at my post of disk sales for 2007/2008 above and it follows the same trend (for both blu ray and HD DVD). I would be willing to bet if you looked at the 2007 sales data from where ever you found this data and it would be the same.

 

[spacejamz]

A spanish film distributor and a Scandanavian retailer have stated today that they are dropping HD DVD support and will only support blu ray titles...the list just keeps growing since the Warner Announcement.

01/04/08: Warner goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/05/08: New Line goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/09/08: Adam & Eve goes neutral
01/10/08: HBO goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/11/08: Constantin Film goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/16/08: Senator Entertainment goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/21/08: Eagle Rock goes neutral
01/21/08: RBFilms goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/22/08: Grant's Appliances goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/24/08: Topics goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/28/08: Woolworths goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/28/08: FS Films goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/30/08: Sonic Scenarist Goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/30/08: EMI Japan Goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/30/08: National Geographic Goes Blu-ray exclusive
01/31/08: Surround Records goes neutral
02/01/08: ADV Goes Blu-ray
02/04/08: Manga Films Goes Blu-ray Exclusive
02/04/08: German Distributor Highlight Video Blu-ray Exclusive
02/04/08: French Distributor BAC Films Joins the Blu-ray Trend
02/06/08: Kaleidescape announces Blu-ray Support (No current HD DVD plans)
02/07/08: Swedish film companies SF and Scanbox go Blu-ray Exclusive
02/07/08: Spanish distributor Filmax goes Blu-ray Exclusive
02/11/08: Netflix goes blu ray exclusive
02/11/08: Best Buy confirms preference for blu ray
02/12/08: Spain's Tripictures goes Blu-ray Exclusive
02/12/08: Scandanavia's Hi-Fi Klubben goes Blu-ray Exclusive

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: JC86

Originally posted by: erwos
The Best Buy news may or may not be damning to HD-DVD. Depends on whether corporate made the decision on their own, or whether this is just a marketing stunt that the BR Group paid for. In the latter case, this is just hot air. In the former, it could be trouble, as it'll mean less and less HD-DVD stuff stocked.

Still, it's not good news for HD-DVD. One more studio defection, and it's basically over at this point.

Since most consumers take what BB tells them with a grain of salt anyways, I don't think it'd be that big of a deal. The Netflix announcement, however, is a much bigger score for the BR group. I wonder if the BR group cut them a deal for cheaper BR movies to stock in exchange for the exclusive agreement.

Not true. the typical AV consumer, yes. but we are a niche group. the actual typical consumer, being maybe 80% of the consumers out there, looks to places like BB & CC as reliable sources of tech info.

The previous 3 trips I made to BB hunting for BD or HD DVD deals, I ran into some people asking one of the employees to explain the difference between BD and HD DVD. The employee was dumbfounded each time...so I offered my assistance.

It's honestly a simple explanation and anyone can get it, but I have yet to see the typical BB employee handle it well. I'm sure the Magnolia people are capable, but the regular blue shirts are pretty useless when it comes to HD Formats.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Genx87
These are the sales numbers since the beginning of the year.

01/06 463K
01/13 379K
01/20 241K
01/27 216K
02/03 199K

Makes you wonder who really won. 200K units a week wont cut the butter. Seems like the warner effect has had an opposite effect than intended. Should be interesting to see how the numbers fair for the next 6 months. I expect them to rebound, but they have a ways to go.

01/06 - Resident Evil / War / Shoot Em Up
01/13 - 3:10 to Yuma / Sunshine
01/20 - Good Luck Chuck / Mr. Woodcock
01/27 - Saw IV / The Game Plan
02/03 - Daddy Day Camp / The Invasion

I'm not understanding this "Warner effect" you think is in effect. I just see a lull in new releases. March 11 & 18 are when the next set of blockbusters are released.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

sigh, I don't think you realize how it must be equally annoying to hear the Blu-ray supports gloat. That said, I STILL think HD-DVD is superior to BRD in many ways (read: in deserving of praise). Just because HD-DVD lost the war does not indicate it to be the inferior format. Look at beta and vhs for proof of that.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't take jpeyton's comment as gloating. There really are die-hard consumers out there discussing strategies that HD DVD needs to take to recover and eventually win. It's sad, when Toshiba has clearly given up.

In many ways, HD DVD is more consumer friendly; but at this point, the absolute best thing for consumers is for it to die ASAP. The more companies that are involved in pushing resources into developing BD, the cheaper it will become.

I guess it's still a format war...but it's between BD and DVD now

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Genx87
These are the sales numbers since the beginning of the year.

01/06 463K
01/13 379K
01/20 241K
01/27 216K
02/03 199K

Makes you wonder who really won. 200K units a week wont cut the butter. Seems like the warner effect has had an opposite effect than intended. Should be interesting to see how the numbers fair for the next 6 months. I expect them to rebound, but they have a ways to go.

01/06 - Resident Evil / War / Shoot Em Up
01/13 - 3:10 to Yuma / Sunshine
01/20 - Good Luck Chuck / Mr. Woodcock
01/27 - Saw IV / The Game Plan
02/03 - Daddy Day Camp / The Invasion

I'm not understanding this "Warner effect" you think is in effect. I just see a lull in new releases. March 11 & 18 are when the next set of blockbusters are released.

yea, software sales on a weekly basis is a bad method of judging the format war, considering every week is not equal in software releases. You need big titles to pull big weekly sales. It has been that way since the beginning. A lot of people who want certain titles get them when they come out, and then the people who missed the opportunity get them later and produce the smaller but still meaningful numbers at later dates.

personally, Toshiba and the DVD Forum seem to have too much pride to just call it quits. They want to hang on and wait out the slimmest possibility that they can continue to co-exist with BD, even though consumers don't think that is a good outcome at all. It will be far better for the industry if they just quit now, while they are already behind. There will be no catch up, they need to see that. They are like children turning away from bad news, pretending it doesn't exist. Wake up and face reality already dammit. We consumers demand that!
Kill off their format now, which will allow/force all studios that want to remain viable in the HDM arena to publish on BD. That's a win for consumers everywhere. Sure, BD hardware is expensive, but once all software is available on it, there will be the second wave of adopters that will be able to afford it and buy into the format, and drive software sales much higher than they are, as there will still be all the other BD owners now purchasing all the new back catalog titles they've been wanting. With all the software available and being purchased, it will also open up the market to produce BD hardware and that will force competition between manufacturers in order to individually win the money from the consumer, which forces innovation and reduction in hardware cost. Another win for consumers, as eventually it will rival DVD and we can truly move on to the new format, for those that need it. DVD will continue to co-exist I think, as long as HDTV sales aren't in 100% of tv-owning homes, which it won't be for a long time as not everyone is going to buy a new set.. a lot of people are comfortable with their 19 and 27" CRT tvs, as long as they live. And as long as they are available to purchase again, some people just won't buy into HD until it's their only option.

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: TheVrolok

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Wreckage
I think this thread has served it's purpose. There is no format war anymore.

You'd be surprised at how many people are still in denial. Check out AVSForum or HighDefDigest Forum; lots of HD DVD owners still singing the praises of their dead format.

sigh, I don't think you realize how it must be equally annoying to hear the Blu-ray supports gloat. That said, I STILL think HD-DVD is superior to BRD in many ways (read: in deserving of praise). Just because HD-DVD lost the war does not indicate it to be the inferior format. Look at beta and vhs for proof of that.

I agree with you, but I wouldn't take jpeyton's comment as gloating. There really are die-hard consumers out there discussing strategies that HD DVD needs to take to recover and eventually win. It's sad, when Toshiba has clearly given up.

In many ways, HD DVD is more consumer friendly; but at this point, the absolute best thing for consumers is for it to die ASAP. The more companies that are involved in pushing resources into developing BD, the cheaper it will become.

I guess it's still a format war...but it's between BD and DVD now

I don't think it'll ever be a 'war' between BD and DVD, they will co-exist for as long as there is a split between HD and non-HD televisions. And if all studios produce on both, then eventually overall volume sales of DVD and BD will produce the same profits as if it were one format only. Just, one type of disc for those with HDTV's and a corresponding BD player... and the other type of disc for those without the HD equipment.

 

[Genx87]

Dropping by over 50% is more than a lull. The effect I am refering to is everybody grabbing a BluRay player because Warner went Blu. When did Warner release their info? Seems like every week since there has been a large dropoff in movie sales. And with all of the new blu ray players in the field, you would think it could sustain itself a little better in between big releases.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: destrekor
personally, Toshiba and the DVD Forum seem to have too much pride to just call it quits.

What gets weird is when you look at what the DVD Forum really is. These are the companies who make the decisions: Hitachi, IBM, Industrial Technology Research Institute, Intel, LG, Matsushita (Panasonic), Microsoft, Mitsubishi, NEC, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sanyo, Sharp, Sony, Thomson, Toshiba, Victor, Walt Disney, Warner Bros.

More than half the DVD Forum's steering committee already supports Blu-ray.

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: zinfamous
I guess it's still a format war...but it's between BD and DVD now

I don't think it'll ever be a 'war' between BD and DVD, they will co-exist for as long as there is a split between HD and non-HD televisions. And if all studios produce on both, then eventually overall volume sales of DVD and BD will produce the same profits as if it were one format only. Just, one type of disc for those with HDTV's and a corresponding BD player... and the other type of disc for those without the HD equipment.

I Agree. I too believe dvd & Blu-ray will co-exist for a long time. Eventually Blu-ray will be cheap, and enough turnover in dvd player lifespans that dvd will be phased out, but I don't see any urgency for the industry to make that push anytime soon.

It's kinda like how Microsoft sells Windows. Nobody needs Vista, but as long as new computer purchases come with Vista preinstalled, XP will be phased out. Note: I'm not saying Blu-ray is bad, just saying that corporations can force out products gradually over time, without even needing to push the new products onto regular consumers.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Genx87
These are the sales numbers since the beginning of the year.

01/06 463K
01/13 379K
01/20 241K
01/27 216K
02/03 199K

Makes you wonder who really won. 200K units a week wont cut the butter. Seems like the warner effect has had an opposite effect than intended. Should be interesting to see how the numbers fair for the next 6 months. I expect them to rebound, but they have a ways to go.

01/06 - Resident Evil / War / Shoot Em Up
01/13 - 3:10 to Yuma / Sunshine
01/20 - Good Luck Chuck / Mr. Woodcock
01/27 - Saw IV / The Game Plan
02/03 - Daddy Day Camp / The Invasion

I'm not understanding this "Warner effect" you think is in effect. I just see a lull in new releases. March 11 & 18 are when the next set of blockbusters are released.

Originally posted by: Genx87
Dropping by over 50% is more than a lull. The effect I am refering to is everybody grabbing a BluRay player because Warner went Blu. When did Warner release their info? Seems like every week since there has been a large dropoff in movie sales. And with all of the new blu ray players in the field, you would think it could sustain itself a little better in between big releases.

No offense, but I'm beginning to see why you like HD DVD so much.

Let's take a peek over at the dvd sales numbers:

Week ending 01/27, top 10 titles sold 2.8m
Week ending 02/03, top 10 titles sold 1.5m

Blu-ray sales dropped 8% between those two weeks, dvd sales dropped 46%!!!!!! Oh My God, what the Hell is happening to DVD sales???!!! Not only did Warner Kill HDM, They must have ALSO Killed DVD!!!

http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd...ekly/2008/20080127.php
http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd...ekly/2008/20080203.php



Actually, just because it's fun, top 10 dvd sales:
01/06 - 3.79m
01/13 - 2.6m
01/20 - 2.4m
01/27 - 2.8m
02/03 - 1.51m

Explain to me the drop in dvd sales. DVD dropped 60% with an additional popular dvd only release, Family Guy's Blue Harvest, *significantly* boosting mid-January sales. Blu-ray dropped just 57% with fewer new releases. The best explanation is, this is January, not December. Martin Luther King Jr. Day and St. Valentine's Day are not commonly accompanied with purchases of new electronic equipment.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: Genx87
These are the sales numbers since the beginning of the year.

01/06 463K
01/13 379K
01/20 241K
01/27 216K
02/03 199K

Makes you wonder who really won. 200K units a week wont cut the butter. Seems like the warner effect has had an opposite effect than intended. Should be interesting to see how the numbers fair for the next 6 months. I expect them to rebound, but they have a ways to go.

01/06 - Resident Evil / War / Shoot Em Up
01/13 - 3:10 to Yuma / Sunshine
01/20 - Good Luck Chuck / Mr. Woodcock
01/27 - Saw IV / The Game Plan
02/03 - Daddy Day Camp / The Invasion

I'm not understanding this "Warner effect" you think is in effect. I just see a lull in new releases. March 11 & 18 are when the next set of blockbusters are released.

Originally posted by: Genx87
Dropping by over 50% is more than a lull. The effect I am refering to is everybody grabbing a BluRay player because Warner went Blu. When did Warner release their info? Seems like every week since there has been a large dropoff in movie sales. And with all of the new blu ray players in the field, you would think it could sustain itself a little better in between big releases.

No offense, but I'm beginning to see why you like HD DVD so much.

Let's take a peek over at the dvd sales numbers:

Week ending 01/27, top 10 titles sold 2.8m
Week ending 02/03, top 10 titles sold 1.5m

Blu-ray sales dropped 8% between those two weeks, dvd sales dropped 46%!!!!!! Oh My God, what the Hell is happening to DVD sales???!!! Not only did Warner Kill HDM, They must have ALSO Killed DVD!!!

http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd...ekly/2008/20080127.php
http://www.the-numbers.com/dvd...ekly/2008/20080203.php



Actually, just because it's fun, top 10 dvd sales:
01/06 - 3.79m
01/13 - 2.6m
01/20 - 2.4m
01/27 - 2.8m
02/03 - 1.51m

Explain to me the drop in dvd sales. DVD dropped 60% with an additional popular dvd only release, Family Guy's Blue Harvest, *significantly* boosting mid-January sales. Blu-ray dropped just 57% with fewer new releases. The best explanation is, this is January, not December. Martin Luther King Jr. Day and St. Valentine's Day are not commonly accompanied with purchases of new electronic equipment.

the explanation for this should be interesting...