The F-35 is a piece of garbage!

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Dec 10, 2005
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Are you not able to comprehend the idea of companies purchasing individuals to talk favorably about the company or their operations?
And companies can do the opposite - hire people to say bad things about competitors. And activists can do the same thing, hire people to say bad things about both parties...

Someone heaping praise on a program or technology does not automatically make them a shill. Don't resort to the shill gambit. It makes for a pretty poor argument.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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Are you not able to comprehend the idea of companies purchasing individuals to talk favorably about the company or their operations?

lol. I'm sure Lockmart paid tons of money for Dr. Patti Clark to post a puff piece on an obscure Aeronautical University's website. Of course, in suggesting that, you're also calling Dr. Clark's professional reputation into question. I mean, if you were that curious, you could email their media contact and just ask, Molly.Justice@erau.edu but I don't think you're sincerely curious, I think you're just butthurt that respected aerospace professionals can go look at the F-35 and be impressed with the program.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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lol. I'm sure Lockmart paid tons of money for Dr. Patti Clark to post a puff piece on an obscure Aeronautical University's website. Of course, in suggesting that, you're also calling Dr. Clark's professional reputation into question. I mean, if you were that curious, you could email their media contact and just ask, Molly.Justice@erau.edu but I don't think you're sincerely curious, I think you're just butthurt that respected aerospace professionals can go look at the F-35 and be impressed with the program.

There is a long history of professors and education officials accepting a bribe or otherwise being involved in corruption. I have no idea who Dr. Patti Clark is, so there is no logic in me trusting them.
 
Mar 11, 2004
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I got a laugh when there was a recent media bit about how the military was now going to use the F-35 as sorta a commander, where it would be feeding other older planes information and basically directing them, with the articles acting like it was a new thing it was being forced to do after being a failure and not being capable enough. Nevermind that was exactly one of the main design ideas for it in the first place, especially as it was also supposed to be a transitional aircraft, replacing older planes over time until it became the new main jet.

Hell, we can't even get companies to make any complex product that is flawless any more, and people somehow expected a massive project like this? Plus most didn't understand the point.

That's not to say a lot of the criticism isn't justified (and the VTOL aspect alone was a massive blunder that they should learn from in the future), but to anyone with even remotely close to common sense knew this would be a work in progress.

But then, the F-35 should've taken out ISIS already, because we don't understand that things are complex!

There is a long history of professors and education officials accepting a bribe or otherwise being involved in corruption. I have no idea who Dr. Patti Clark is, so there is no logic in me trusting them.

Oh please. But at least you make it clear that your whole argument is based on fallacious reasoning.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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Damn, Lockheed Martin got to the Obama Administration too.

Pentagon Chief Says Lockheed's F-35 Now on Track for Success


The F-16, also built by Lockheed, costs about $50 million, and the competing Swedish-made Saab Gripen NG goes for $55 million, Aboulafia said. The current flyaway cost of the F/A-18E/F from Boeing Co. is about $77.8 million, according to fiscal 2017 Navy budget documents.
The F-35’s current flyaway cost is in “roughly the same class as the Typhoon Eurofighter — around $90 million — and Boeing F-15,” Aboulafia said.

That guy should stick to reporting on the civilian market until he stops being lazy with military topics. This one was a bit loose on the "roughly".


F-16's were cheap because 4500 of them were built with extra benefit of shared engines and components with other aircraft. That being said, unit flyaway cost TODAY is between 50M (block 52 new build) to 80mil if you wanted to go Block 61+ with all the toys.

F-15's do not cost "around 90 million"
F-15E's as per US specification (we fly the least capable version of the F-15 compared to the export market) is 110million+ per copy. The last one we purchased 10 years ago was 108million (UFC). That last one we bought was antiquated compared to what would be considered acceptable today.
Once you start getting to the K and SA models built for other countries the cost 120-150 million new build. The price we paid for our F-15C's are now irrelevant. We would never build "that" plane again.
Also keep in mind that F-15 costs are impacted by using one of the most widely produced engines on the market thanks to its usage on the F-16.

Typhoon tranche 3 are in the 130+ range. If you can't get your hands on a Raptor, Typhoon is the next best thing (Even though Typhoon pilots hate F-35's and Raptor)

Gripen NG @55M? Sure. Go ahead and walk into Saab headquarters and ask the for the JAS-39NG 55 Million dollar special. Good luck with that.

F-35 unit flyaway cost once in full rate production will be between 75 and 85 for the A model going up to about 120 for the Navy's C model which is a bigger aircraft with larger wings + different requirements than the A or the B.

I think I'm going to open up my own consulting agency and just sell quotes to News agencies.
Sounds like a pretty sweet gig.
Don't need to be accurate, Just need to have enough talking points to support the narrative popular in the media that month.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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You think I have not already been wondering about that? Jesus you seem to fail to understand the reality of politics, or far more probably you just seem to feel content remaining ignorant of them. From what I remember Obama and Carter also want to get rid of the A-10.

Only reason why the A-10 is around is because of certain legislators out of Arizona.
Davis-Monthan is only base that trains pilots on the A-10, which is a large part of the base’s fleet. With the base contributing almost $1.5 billion to the Tucson-area economy and employing nearly 10,000 people in fiscal 2013, according to the Air Force, news of the Warthog’s reprieve was welcomed by local officials.
“Keeping the A-10 ensures that economic contribution remains,” David Godlewski, president of Southern Arizona Defense Alliance, said Friday.
Nobody want's the A-10. At this point it's a relic in the inventory that sucks up funds from other programs.
It's more myth than anything else nowadays.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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I think I'm going to open up my own consulting agency and just sell quotes to News agencies.
Sounds like a pretty sweet gig.
Don't need to be accurate, Just need to have enough talking points to support the narrative popular in the media that month.

Yeah, I noticed his quotes were way off. You get a little slack because fighter procurement is pretty complex and those numbers shift a bit depending on the deal, but not that much slack. LMAO at $90mm for a Typhoon.

Typhoon is a damn good fighter, don't get me wrong, probably the best non American fighter. I'll bet all the quarters in my pocket that the F-35 scalps it at Red Flag though. It's gonna be the same as the F-22, AMRAAM kills before the any of the Eurocanards can detect them.

I'll also go out on a limb and predict that FWIW it will be a much better WVR fighter than people think. There's 50,000 lbs. of thrust in that engine, in a fighter with an empty weight of 29,000 lbs., > 1:1 TW ratio with a full tank of gas, and no draggy EFTs or external weapons. An F-16 with a half tank of gas might still outturn it, but really, who cares?


FYI, War is Boring is a terrible place to get your 'I'.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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I'll also go out on a limb and predict that FWIW it will be a much better WVR fighter than people think. There's 50,000 lbs. of thrust in that engine, in a fighter with an empty weight of 29,000 lbs., > 1:1 TW ratio with a full tank of gas, and no draggy EFTs or external weapons. An F-16 with a half tank of gas might still outturn it, but really, who cares?

And how is the energy retention of the F-35? Keep in mind I am not so against the F-35, but as a program Lockheed has done anything but run it successfully.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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You think I have not already been wondering about that? Jesus you seem to fail to understand the reality of politics, or far more probably you just seem to feel content remaining ignorant of them. From what I remember Obama and Carter also want to get rid of the A-10.

i don't think obama said either way. the air force was earmarking it for the scrap heap under the sequestration cuts. probably because the brass aren't dumb and know every time they've mentioned killing it, congress gives them more money.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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i don't think obama said either way. the air force was earmarking it for the scrap heap under the sequestration cuts. probably because the brass aren't dumb and know every time they've mentioned killing it, congress gives them more money.

That makes perfect sense. Some crafty fuckers they are.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
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reuters podcast with occasional appearances by the war is boring guy(thankfully he isnt on that often). the guests are usually well worth the listen.
https://soundcloud.com/war_college/is-the-syrian-war-partly-an-ad

mainly relevant due to russia being unable to finance the pak-fa much less the armata. doubly relevant due to ukraine being the heart of engine production sourcing.

we may be overpaying and taking forever to get gen5 to mass deployment operational level, but everyone else is having the same problems or are arguably worse off.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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we may be overpaying and taking forever to get gen5 to mass deployment operational level, but everyone else is having the same problems or are arguably worse off.

Eh. Russia is probably not going to be able to pull off producing their new hardware in any significant numbers, but the Chinese could very well be able to produce the J-20 in large numbers. They have some problems developing good engines, but they can still use Russian engines.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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Yeah, I noticed his quotes were way off. You get a little slack because fighter procurement is pretty complex and those numbers shift a bit depending on the deal, but not that much slack. LMAO at $90mm for a Typhoon.

Typhoon is a damn good fighter, don't get me wrong, probably the best non American fighter. I'll bet all the quarters in my pocket that the F-35 scalps it at Red Flag though. It's gonna be the same as the F-22, AMRAAM kills before the any of the Eurocanards can detect them.

I'll also go out on a limb and predict that FWIW it will be a much better WVR fighter than people think. There's 50,000 lbs. of thrust in that engine, in a fighter with an empty weight of 29,000 lbs., > 1:1 TW ratio with a full tank of gas, and no draggy EFTs or external weapons. An F-16 with a half tank of gas might still outturn it, but really, who cares?



FYI, War is Boring is a terrible place to get your 'I'.

Typhoon is probably the top dog of the 4th gen fighters at least by 4th gen standards. I do agree F-35's will have the advantage against them. They are going to have to stack the deck to create scenarios where Typhoon pilots get a chance to get a jump on F-35's.

As for WVR...just ask the dutch
http://airheadsfly.com/2016/01/26/dutch-lightning-testers/
The visual fight will most likely already be decided before the adversary knows it’s in a dogfight, continues Gladys. “Even so, slow-speed and high angle-of-attack performance is much better than many fourth generation fighters like the F-16. High angle of attack testing has been an eye-opener for previous F-16 pilots, who are not used to very good slow speed performance. Straight line acceleration is also much better. At higher speeds, the F-16 has the sustained turning advantage (as it does over many aircraft like the F-18), but only when fighting in training configurations without any missiles or bombs. When flying in combat configs, even the high speeds sustained fight becomes much closer.”
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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And how is the energy retention of the F-35? Keep in mind I am not so against the F-35, but as a program Lockheed has done anything but run it successfully.

Okay, it's over budget and late, but compare it to any other fighter program in the US, Europe, or Russia. It's not nearly as bad as the Eurofighter, Rafale, Pak FA, etc. Building modern fighters is not easy.

i don't think obama said either way. the air force was earmarking it for the scrap heap under the sequestration cuts. probably because the brass aren't dumb and know every time they've mentioned killing it, congress gives them more money.

I don't think that's true. It's a problem for the Air Force. They want to shift their maintainers, pilots, etc. over to other platforms. Keeping the A-10 around is a headache.

mainly relevant due to russia being unable to finance the pak-fa much less the armata. doubly relevant due to ukraine being the heart of engine production sourcing.

we may be overpaying and taking forever to get gen5 to mass deployment operational level, but everyone else is having the same problems or are arguably worse off.

Eh. Russia is probably not going to be able to pull off producing their new hardware in any significant numbers, but the Chinese could very well be able to produce the J-20 in large numbers. They have some problems developing good engines, but they can still use Russian engines.

Worth remembering that for the F-35, the airframe is the "easy" part. It's the avionics and software that are so difficult, expensive, and time consuming. I'm highly skeptical of the J-20. I'd go as far as saying that both the J-20 and Pak-FA feel like little more than government propaganda.

The F-35 is the first stealthy aircraft that will be deployed in large numbers. It's a catastrophic threat to the sovereign airspace of any nation that relies on IADS, which is pretty much all of them. Russia and China need to tell their citizens 'it's okay, we've got this.'
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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Worth remembering that for the F-35, the airframe is the "easy" part. It's the avionics and software that are so difficult, expensive, and time consuming. I'm highly skeptical of the J-20. I'd go as far as saying that both the J-20 and Pak-FA feel like little more than government propaganda.

Western avionics have basically always been more advanced than their Russian or Chinese counterpoints. The Chinese may be able to catch up, or even develop more advanced avionics than us in the future, but it will probably be a while until they are able to do that at all. From what I know, the Russian 4th generation airframes are more advanced than ours, as they were developed at a slightly later date. Regardless if the J-20 is powerful enough to defeat the F-15, F-16, and F-18, then it doesnt matter how it compares to the F-22 and F-35 if we cant build enough of them, and the Chinese can build a lot of J-20s.

The F-35 is the first stealthy aircraft that will be deployed in large numbers. It's a catastrophic threat to the sovereign airspace of any nation that relies on IADS, which is pretty much all of them. Russia and China need to tell their citizens 'it's okay, we've got this.'

And we know that stealthy aircraft are not invisible, and low-frequency radar can often detect them. It has been said that sensors have some good chances of overtaking stealth not that long from now, and stealth might never overtake sensors again, at least in the concernable future, i.e. the next 100 years or so.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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I still do not understand why you're so gung ho over the F-35, but have at it.

Even the pilots flying them do not think they will ever be produced in the numbers originally projected.

Osprey were in R&D even when I was in the service in the early 80's, nah not a lot of money wasted on R&D there.

But have at it I guess.

Yes, I know plenty about the IAF just on a side note.
 
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pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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Even the pilots flying them do not think they will ever be produced in the numbers originally projected.
Based on the projected state of world affairs, unlikely. If the US decides to shrink the airforce and cut back on manned aircraft purchases, it will likely be offset by overseas sales.

Osprey were in R&D even when I was in the service in the early 80's, nah not a lot of money wasted on R&D there.


This guy summed it up
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dragon029/comments/2z7ym6/why_is_the_f35_unpopular/
In terms of delays, it's been a long time coming, but it's not a record breaker; a few examples of other projects:

  • F-35: JSF competition started in 1996, tech demos flew in 2000, the F-35 flew in 2006. The F-35B intends to enter service this year, 15 years after its X-jet flew and 19 years after the program began.
  • F-22: ATF competition started in 1981, the YF-22 prototype flew in 1990, the first F-22 flew in 1997 and the jet entered service in 2005, 15 years after the prototype flew and 24 years after the program began.
  • Eurofighter Typhoon: FEFA program started in 1983, the first prototype flew in 1994 and the jet entered service in 2003, 9 years after the prototype flew and 20 years after the program began.
  • Dassault Rafale: ACX program began in 1982, had the first flight of a tech demo in 1985, then flew the first fighter prototype in 1986, before having the jet enter service in 2001, 15 years after the prototype flew and 19 years after the program began.
And although isn't a fighter...

  • V-22 Osprey: JVX program started in 1981, Bell / Boeing wins the contract in 1983. The V-22 has its first flight in 1989, before entering service in 2007; 18 years after the prototype flew and 26 years after the program began.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
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Regardless if the J-20 is powerful enough to defeat the F-15, F-16, and F-18, then it doesnt matter how it compares to the F-22 and F-35 if we cant build enough of them, and the Chinese can build a lot of J-20s.

And how many have they built at this point? All they have are technology demonstrators and pre-production development aircraft. They just announced they're beginning LRIP. By comparison, the F-35 entered LRIP nine years ago, has 200+ airframes built and another 50 odd jets coming this year. It's kind of amazing to speculate that the F-35 could be produced in low numbers and the J-20 in high numbers when it looks like the exact opposite is the most likely scenario. Even if China does build large numbers of J-20s, how are they going to power them?

Remember that the F-35 is a rarity for the USN: a single engine fighter. To get the Navy to agree to that, the JSF program increased the reliability spec on the F-135. P&W increased the engine's headroom (difference between mil power and what the engine is capable of) to meet that spec, so now you have engines with 6,000 cycles between major overhauls.

Russian engines, on the other hand, need to work much harder to match American T/W ratios. As a result, they only get 1/8 the TBO. Yeah, they overhaul their engines eight times more frequently than we do for the same use. So now China is going to build thousands of J-20s, and do what, leave them on the ground?

And we know that stealthy aircraft are not invisible, and low-frequency radar can often detect them. It has been said that sensors have some good chances of overtaking stealth not that long from now, and stealth might never overtake sensors again, at least in the concernable future, i.e. the next 100 years or so.

I don't really know what to say to this other than you should either learn about how radar and stealth work (start here), or just drop this argument altogether. Stealth is an extraordinary advantage for aircraft operating in hostile airspace, and there is no technology I'm aware of, even on the drawing board, that threatens to change that. You're welcome to link something if you like. I'm well aware of low frequency radars, their capabilities, and their limitations.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
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I don't really know what to say to this other than you should either learn about how radar and stealth work (start here), or just drop this argument altogether. Stealth is an extraordinary advantage for aircraft operating in hostile airspace, and there is no technology I'm aware of, even on the drawing board, that threatens to change that. You're welcome to link something if you like. I'm well aware of low frequency radars, their capabilities, and their limitations.

The big boys have been talking about it for a while already.

Others are more cynical about stealth. Argued Norman Friedman, a noted analyst who’s worked for the Navy, “the Air Force went hot on stealth because it was a way of showing that pilots could survive” in the face of improving anti-aircraft defenses known as “dougle-digit SAMs,” the highly capable air defense systems that the Soviet Union began developing in the 1980s.
“A lot of this is about whether pilots stay in business,” Friedman went on. Especially outside the Air Force, he said, “I would suspect that people worry about stealth not being nearly as good as people claimed it was. The CNO in Proceedings said as much.”
No less a figure than the Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. Jonathan Greenert, a submariner, wrote in the nation’s most prestigious naval publication, the Proceedings of the US Naval Institute that “sensors will start to circumvent stealth” in the future.
“The rapid expansion of computing power also ushers in new sensors and methods that will make stealth and its advantages increasingly difficult to maintain,” Adm. Greenert wrote in July. “It is time to consider shifting our focus from platforms that rely solely on stealth.”
So while the Air Force has bet on stealth to hide its planes from hostile radar, the Navy is still buying electronic-warfare aircraft to neutralize radar the old-fashioned way, by jamming it. Those Navy jammers also support Air Force operations and are even crewed, on occasion, by Air Force personnel – but the Air Force has no jamming aircraft of its own.

Performance specs for stealth versus radar remain a carefully kept secret, for obvious reasons. But Breaking Defense did speak to (among others) two of the leading experts on the subject: F-35 booster Deptula, a retired three-star general with decades of experience planning and flying combat missions; and long-time stealth skeptic Friedman, an award-winning military analyst and author with a degree in theoretical physics. The two men have very different takes on the future viability of stealth – but both agreed, to start with, that it’s not the magic invisibility cloak from Harry Potter.
“People need to understand stealth is not invisibility,” Deptula told Breaking Defense. As current sensor technology improves, he said, “you’re going to be able to detect aircraft with current levels of low-observability at further distances.” That said, non-stealth planes are much bigger targets, he said: “It’s a piece of cake for an adversary with a sophisticated air defense system to engage and kill a 4th generation aircraft; it’s very difficult for them to do that with a 5th gen aircraft. Will it get easier in the future? Possibly.”
“You can’t make something disappear, all right?” echoed Friedman. “What you can do is reduce the signature you get back [on the enemy’s sensor screens]. More powerful processors buy you back part of the signal” – and thanks to Moore’s Law, the processing power available to do that doubles every 18 months. The more powerful the processors and the more sophisticated their algorithms, the more effectively they can sift meaningful data out of the static. And no matter how stealthy an aircraft is, it still makes some noise, it still emits some heat as infra-red radiation, and – most critically – it still reflects back some portion of an incoming radar beam.
Not that all radars are created equal. Even back in the 1980s, author Andrew Cockburn warned that, ironically, the Soviet Union’s oldest, crudest radars might detect stealth bombers that newer systems missed. Stealth aircraft rely on carefully designed shapes and thin surface coatings to baffle incoming radar beams. But the lower the frequency of the incoming radar, the longer the wavelength, which means the less it reflects such subtleties at all: It’s essentially too stupid to be tricked.
The upside is such relatively crude radars may detect a stealth aircraft is out there somewhere, but not accurately enough to shoot it down. The low-frequency, long-wavelength radars that are most likely to see through stealth are, for the same reasons of physics, the least precise. They’re also too big to fit in anything but a ship or a fixed ground installation, where they are typically used to give warning that aircraft are in the general area. Actually tracking and hitting a target depends on smaller, shorter-wavelength radars which can fit in, say, an interceptor aircraft or surface-to-air missile and which offer more precision but are also more easily baffled by stealth technologies.
“Just because you can see someone now doesn’t mean you can kill them,” said Deptula. “Acquisition radars, which are what people generally tend to focus on, are only one element in an adversary’s air defense equation.” After a target is initially “acquired,” he went on, “you need to be able to track the asset to then get to a firing solution; then you need to transfer that tracking data to the missile, which then needs to be able to acquire and track the aircraft [after it launches]. Presuming that the missile can track… now the fuse needs to be able to detect the aircraft” in order to detonate at the right time.
Break any link in that “kill chain,” and the stealth aircraft survives, even if it’s seen. So while stealth can’t defeat all the radars all the time, it doesn’t need to.
The problem is what happens when all the radars are working together in parallel instead of in a series. Rapid advances in computing technology don’t just improve the individual radars. They also make it easier to share data among multiple sensors of multiple types – radar, infra-red, visual, acoustic – and thus put together scattered clues into a picture that’s clear enough to kill.
“If you have a lot of radars working together, then you add up all of those very momentary detections and you get a track,” said Friedman. With a command-detonated or time-fused missile instead of a radar-homing one, he went on, you can then fire at the predicted position of the target, without needing a radar lock on its precise location. This technique is less precise – the equivalent of shooting at a strange noise in the dark instead of having the target in your sights – but it can be effective. It may, for example, have been how the Serbians shot down an F-117 stealth fighter during the Kosovo air war in 1999.

In fact, while jamming has been done usually by special-purpose aircraft like the Air Force EF-111 Raven (retired in 1998) or the Navy EA-6B Prowler and its replacement, the EA-18 Growler, fans of the F-22 and F-35 argue the new planes can scramble enemy radar on their own. Thanks to the same increases in processing power than make radars more sensitive, electronic warfare systems that once took up an entire airplane can now be miniaturized and fit aboard a fighter-bomber as just one weapon among many. For example, the F-35 possesses powerful jammers and highly classified electronic warfare capabilities, as well as boasting layers of designed-in low observability (aka stealth). Exact capabilities are highly classified, but proponents say the latest systems can not only tell where an radar beam is coming from but can also feed back subtly scrambled signals, misleading enemy sensor operators who may never even realize they’re being jammed.
“We have to get beyond the notion that 5th generation aircraft are single-role aircraft,” said Deptula. “They’re actually flying sensor nodes; they can collect ELINT [electronic intelligence], SIGINT [signals intelligence]; they can launch anti-radiation missiles” to home in on enemy radars and destroy them. “They can carry a panoply of different weapons,” he said. “They give us the potential to create a networked airborne ISR strike complex that has significantly more capability than operating concepts of the last century.” New technologies require new tactics.
Of course, this multi-functional flying network still requires the individual aircraft to transmit radio messages and, at least to some extent, to send out radar beams and other “electronic emissions” – all of which can be detected. A technology known as “low probability of intercept” is designed to make a stealth plane’s radar and radio emissions harder to detect by minimizing power, hopping frequencies and scrambling signals, but the enemy can improve his sensors in turn.
“The way LPI usually works is you send out a signal that looks like noise and somehow you reassemble that signal when it comes back,” said Friedman. That depends on massive processing power and sophisticated algorithms – which are becoming more available to everyone. Are you so much smarter in your processing than the other guy?”
But Friedman believes stealthy aircraft should not emit. “The more stealthy you want to be, the less you want to emit.” Therefore it’s better to have dedicated, non-stealthy electronic warfare aircraft as backup – presumably at a safe distance from enemy missile launchers – or, better yet, expendable decoy drones that emit enough to draw attention and draw fire away from the actual manned planes. (Of course, at this point, grumbles Friedman, why not make all the aircraft unmanned?)
So while stealth is no longer a silver bullet – if it ever was – it is still useful. It just needs to be used in conjunction with smart tactics and with other technologies. The challenge is not to let the increasingly expensive airplanes crowd all the essential supporting systems out of the budget.

http://breakingdefense.com/2012/11/will-stealth-survive-as-sensors-improve-f-35-jammers-at-stake/
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
126
The big boys have been talking about it for a while already.

Of course they talk about it, nothing in what you posted suggests any theoretical technology that diminishes a LO aircraft's advantage over a 4th gen. More sensitive radars and more processing power means that non-stealthy aircraft will be detected at much greater range. The whole point of stealth is to provide a sensor advantage, and again, nothing in what you posted suggests that will change.

If you read the document I posted, the author wrote about how stealth enhances the effectiveness of radar jamming. A radar trying to process a very weak signal return will obviously be more vulnerable to jamming than if a flying barn-door like the Su-35 or F-15 tries to jam it. Jamming functionality is built into the F-35's AESA radar, I imagine that's why the USAF isn't procuring any more EW aircraft.