The EU and Turkey have struck deal to start talks

[Aimster]

70,000 Turks in Greece.

http://www.medea.be/?page=2&lang=en&doc=339

 

[Martin]

Hmm..I see a thread about Europe, I click and I see Wormy once again going on about the "racist xenophobic europeans". Now, why wasn't I surprised? Oh yeah, he does that in every single fscking euro related thread.

Well, I'm sure some of you are dissatisfied with this bullsh!t and would like to know some of the real concerns europeans have:
[*]Wealth and size - Turkey is very very poor, poorer than any of the new members, and even poorer than the "laggards" Romania and Bulgaria, who'll be joining in 07. As for size, when it joins, it'll be bigger than ALL the current 10 new members combined. This is obviously a huge undertaking, they'll put the EU budget under incredible strain (CAP transfers, subsidies, infrasturcture grants etc). Many poeple don't see the value in this expansion.
[*]Immigration - No one minds a bit of if, but there is a likely to be a flood of immigrants, and many people are afraid this might put an end to their cherished welfare states. Imagine an open border between Latin America and the US. I am sure many americans will have issue with that (as evidenced by the huge opposition to the current proposed immigration reform).
[*]European integration - Fpr the longest time, the EU was all about "ever closer union". with the current expansion plans, the club is expanding breadthwise, but not depthwise. Many europeans would rather the EU concentrate on closer union, rather than larger union. And its not just turkey knocking at the door, croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia, Ukraine (Likely after the election), George. Hell, even Morroco has been talked about as potential member.
[*]Cultural differences - these are, IMO too overblown, but many people feel that the Turks would change europe too much.



I can see the appeal in just waving away reality and making a simpler, alternate one in which you can believe ("Oh, they're just racist xenophobes"), but not everyone is up for that...

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: nCred

Originally posted by: The Boss
Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/tu.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/bu.html

They have lower GDP per capita then Bulgaria.

Pick up the latest Economist issue. It has Bulgaria @ $3,590 and Turkey @ $4,150 and growth rates at 4.0% and 4.3% respectively. I trust the Economist way more than I could ever trust CIA.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: The Boss

Originally posted by: nCred

Originally posted by: The Boss
Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/tu.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/bu.html

They have lower GDP per capita then Bulgaria.

Pick up the latest Economist issue. It has Bulgaria @ $3,590 and Turkey @ $4,150 and growth rates at 4.0% and 4.3% respectively. I trust the Economist way more than I could ever trust CIA.

CIA one is done at PPP, while the World in 2005 (I am guessing that's what you're refering to) uses real terms, which isn't as accurate.

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: Martin
Hmm..I see a thread about Europe, I click and I see Wormy once again going on about the "racist xenophobic europeans". Now, why wasn't I surprised? Oh yeah, he does that in every single fscking euro related thread.

Well, I'm sure some of you are dissatisfied with this bullsh!t and would like to know some of the real concerns europeans have:
[*]Wealth and size - Turkey is very very poor, poorer than any of the new members, and even poorer than the "laggards" Romania and Bulgaria, who'll be joining in 07. As for size, when it joins, it'll be bigger than ALL the current 10 new members combined. This is obviously a huge undertaking, they'll put the EU budget under incredible strain (CAP transfers, subsidies, infrasturcture grants etc). Many poeple don't see the value in this expansion.
[*]Immigration - No one minds a bit of if, but there is a likely to be a flood of immigrants, and many people are afraid this might put an end to their cherished welfare states. Imagine an open border between Latin America and the US. I am sure many americans will have issue with that (as evidenced by the huge opposition to the current proposed immigration reform).
[*]European integration - Fpr the longest time, the EU was all about "ever closer union". with the current expansion plans, the club is expanding breadthwise, but not depthwise. Many europeans would rather the EU concentrate on closer union, rather than larger union. And its not just turkey knocking at the door, croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia, Ukraine (Likely after the election), George. Hell, even Morroco has been talked about as potential member.
[*]Cultural differences - these are, IMO too overblown, but many people feel that the Turks would change europe too much.



I can see the appeal in just waving away reality and making a simpler, alternate one in which you can believe ("Oh, they're just racist xenophobes"), but not everyone is up for that...

I can understand most of these but the first one, about being poorer than the newest 10 countries is irrelevant. Most of the countries that began negotiations some time ago and joined the EU last year had a lower GDP per capita than what Turkey has now. Negotiations are there for a reason, to help the Turks improve their economy and increase the living standards of their people.

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: The Boss

Originally posted by: nCred

Originally posted by: The Boss
Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/tu.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/bu.html

They have lower GDP per capita then Bulgaria.

Pick up the latest Economist issue. It has Bulgaria @ $3,590 and Turkey @ $4,150 and growth rates at 4.0% and 4.3% respectively. I trust the Economist way more than I could ever trust CIA.

CIA one is done at PPP, while the World in 2005 (I am guessing that's what you're refering to) uses real terms, which isn't as accurate.

See what I said below... Turkey also has a lower unemployment rate than Bulgaria, which is about the join the EU. I don't know what the unemployment rate was prior to pre-negotiations.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: The Boss

Originally posted by: Martin

Originally posted by: The Boss

Originally posted by: nCred

Originally posted by: The Boss
Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/tu.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/bu.html

They have lower GDP per capita then Bulgaria.

Pick up the latest Economist issue. It has Bulgaria @ $3,590 and Turkey @ $4,150 and growth rates at 4.0% and 4.3% respectively. I trust the Economist way more than I could ever trust CIA.

CIA one is done at PPP, while the World in 2005 (I am guessing that's what you're refering to) uses real terms, which isn't as accurate.

See what I said below... Turkey also has a lower unemployment rate than Bulgaria, which is about the join the EU. I don't know what the unemployment rate was prior to pre-negotiations.

IIRC, it was the same as Turkey's today. The large unemployment (17% in 2002, now ~13% and falling I think) is because of the privatizations they had to go through in order to meet EU requirements. Turkey is likely to go through the same thing as well. But we're just talking percentages, you have to take into account that turkey is 9 times bigger than Bulgaria.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be admited, but the EU should be careful in dealing with them. In addition to poeple's concerns, there are also political concerns. Canny has tried to paint the europeans as worse as Turkey, but reality is that Turkey is in league of their own. Also, the frequent financial and political crisies. Their economy has crashed thrice since 1990 and IIRC their last coup was in 1997.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Kibbo

Originally posted by: CanOWorms


Not only are you most likely lying, but what's the point of bringing that up in a discussion about Turkey and the EU (take that flag off your head)? Please provide a link.

That's been posted twice in here just recently. Try to keep up.

No, it hasn't. Why don't you read that particular post?

Turkey and its people are viewed as inferior by most in Europe. This 17th century attitude needs to be corrected.

I think that you are most likely lying. Please provide a link.

I believe that I already did. Again, read all the posts.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Martin
Hmm..I see a thread about Europe, I click and I see Wormy once again going on about the "racist xenophobic europeans". Now, why wasn't I surprised? Oh yeah, he does that in every single fscking euro related thread.

Talking about xenophobia and discrimination is vital in regards to discussion about Turkey entering the EU. It is without a doubt one of the most important issues. Why do you want to ignore it? Turkey has been called "too Oriental", many ultra right-wing supremacist parties are involved with opposing Turkey, etc. I don't know how you can have a REAL discussion without talking about it.

But of course I'm talking to the person that was trying to justify Slovenia stripping a group of minorities as being considered less than human by their government just because it's in Eastern Europe.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: freegeeks
LOL

so his remarks are not offensive thread crapping,
he's posting drivel about refugees in bunkers in a thread that discusses tne neutrality policy of Switserland
and you think that is normal

you are also showing your true colours,

nice one :thumbsup:

As I said, I didn't read all of them. That Switzerland one was stupid.

At least you did not even bother to refute the statements that I claim agains tyou.

I think you have a selective reading problem

How so?

Selective reading comprehension, not just memory, actually.

We are talking about the person who claims that any Canadian who says anything remotely negative about the US on this board, which talks primarily about US issues as we all know, is ultra nationalistic and has a inferiority complex towards the US.

As for some of the others here they laugh off polls as bias and false information. That is unless it supports their views, which they prop up as "proof".

Ignore these people.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Aelius
Selective reading comprehension, not just memory, actually.

We are talking about the person who claims that any Canadian who says anything remotely negative about the US on this board, which talks primarily about US issues as we all know, is ultra nationalistic and has a inferiority complex towards the US.

As for some of the others here they laugh off polls as bias and false information. That is unless it supports their views, which they prop up as "proof".

Ignore these people.

We are seeing a person who claims that any person in the entire world who is not Canadian is inferior and he believes in the very thought of Canadian genetic superiority.

Let me get this right - the kid that uses the History Channel as a source for proving a long standing and well known conspiracy theory and then refuses to cite any source for such theory except for his television and whines and cries about a historical inaccuracy that his magical friend 'told him' is talking about comprehension problems...OK.

I think it's about time you go to bed and watch some more History Channel and listen to some more magical inaccurate historical stories from your father again.

Let's not ignore these people. They provide great joy and satisfaction in their complete stupidity.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Aelius
Selective reading comprehension, not just memory, actually.

We are talking about the person who claims that any Canadian who says anything remotely negative about the US on this board, which talks primarily about US issues as we all know, is ultra nationalistic and has a inferiority complex towards the US.

As for some of the others here they laugh off polls as bias and false information. That is unless it supports their views, which they prop up as "proof".

Ignore these people.

We are seeing a person who claims that any person in the entire world who is not Canadian is inferior and he believes in the very thought of Canadian genetic superiority.

Let me get this right - the kid that uses the History Channel as a source for proving a long standing and well known conspiracy theory and then refuses to cite any source for such theory except for his television and whines and cries about a historical inaccuracy that his magical friend 'told him' is talking about comprehension problems...OK.

I think it's about time you go to bed and watch some more History Channel and listen to some more magical inaccurate historical stories from your father again.

Let's not ignore these people. They provide great joy and satisfaction in their complete stupidity.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Aelius
Selective reading comprehension, not just memory, actually.

We are talking about the person who claims that any Canadian who says anything remotely negative about the US on this board, which talks primarily about US issues as we all know, is ultra nationalistic and has a inferiority complex towards the US.

As for some of the others here they laugh off polls as bias and false information. That is unless it supports their views, which they prop up as "proof".

Ignore these people.

We are seeing a person who claims that any person in the entire world who is not Canadian is inferior and he believes in the very thought of Canadian genetic superiority.

Let me get this right - the kid that uses the History Channel as a source for proving a long standing and well known conspiracy theory and then refuses to cite any source for such theory except for his television and whines and cries about a historical inaccuracy that his magical friend 'told him' is talking about comprehension problems...OK.

I think it's about time you go to bed and watch some more History Channel and listen to some more magical inaccurate historical stories from your father again.

Let's not ignore these people. They provide great joy and satisfaction in their complete stupidity.

Thank you for proving my point.

I was under the assumption that you try to 'prove' your points via the History Channel.

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: Martin

IIRC, it was the same as Turkey's today. The large unemployment (17% in 2002, now ~13% and falling I think) is because of the privatizations they had to go through in order to meet EU requirements. Turkey is likely to go through the same thing as well. But we're just talking percentages, you have to take into account that turkey is 9 times bigger than Bulgaria.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be admited, but the EU should be careful in dealing with them. In addition to poeple's concerns, there are also political concerns. Canny has tried to paint the europeans as worse as Turkey, but reality is that Turkey is in league of their own. Also, the frequent financial and political crisies. Their economy has crashed thrice since 1990 and IIRC their last coup was in 1997.

Dude, I'm with you at some points. Turkey definetly is far behind the EU average in many areas. I have Turkish citizenship and lived there till I was 15. I go back every now and then to visit family and stuff. Anyways, I'm totally against Turkey joining the EU. I feel very disappointed and angry at the way the current government has degraded and demeaned my country to such a low in place in hopes to join the EU. I see Turkey and it's current government far different than any American or European can see. I'm a defendant of seperation of church and state. I'm not a religious person nor a Muslim but I respect other people's religious choices. I respect EU's concerns regarding religion and economics but I do not believe in their cultural fear. Europe never had common values nor culture as we have seen it through the history. I recently traveled through Germany, Italy and Austria. Although Germany and Italy were by far better, I couldn't believe the amount of racism in Vienna, Austria. It's like you are degraded to an inhumane level as soon as they learn where you are from (it's kinda hard to tell where I'm from - most guess I'm from Italy) Almost 80-90% of EU citizens do not believe in each other. And don't get me started on U.S. The only reason they want Turkey in EU is so Turkey won't form a block with Middle East and/or Russia. Anyways, I think I put too much on words here... I just hope that Turkey will try to improve itself economically, socially and politically not for the hope of joining EU but rather to improve the living standards of its people. It's apparent that the European people don't want Turkey in as of now and there's noway that Turkey will ever be a bridge between the West and the Middle East as Turkey has turned (thank god) its back on the Middle East an Islam. Turkey and majority of its citizens do not live like the Middle East (language, culture, religion and politics) so the idea of a bridge between the West and Middle East is a false one. It will never happen. By the way, I live in Virginia, USA.

 

[Martin]

Interesting view, thanks for sharing.