The EU and Turkey have struck deal to start talks

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: freegeeks

yeah right , it's always a "joke" when you post stuff like that, that's your only defense

you've been exposed as being an obsessive wacko, not only be me but also by other (American) members
keep posting your drivel so that more and more people can see what a nutjob you are
:thumbsup:

good night

It's obviously a joke. Not my fault that you have no sense of humor or personality.

Well you've been exposed as a fundamentalist/extremist, especially when you spouted off ethnicity-based insults at me. Of course I'd be seen as a nutjob within your crowd.

show me the ethnicity-based insults - please PM the mods about it, I'm sure they would sanction this kind of behavior

FACT: I neverd insulted you and I asked multiple times for prove but you never delivered (as always)

You know what I'm talking about. I've linked it for you several times. Many people saw it.

Only supremacist/fundamentalist/extremists would tell someone to go back or talk about or whatever to their "home country" when they aren't even from that country. And now you're saying that you never insulted me. Yeah right.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I doubt that most European people would even want Turkey in the EU. They probably see it as poor, too different in culture, and are 'afraid' of the thought of many Muslims/Turks 'invading' their countries.

Some of the newer countries in the EU were poor, corrupt, etc. and they invited them in. The key difference is their ethnicity, religion, and culture are generally different. In the current atmosphere of discrimination, xenophobia, etc. in Europe, that's going to be hard to overcome.

No, the differnce is that Turkey is even more behind and have a population around 80 mio people and there must be some large reforms of the EU before it can run financially. I'm not denying that lots of people are aginst Turkey joining, but since they have ~10 years to getting custom to the idea I think it will change. Imagine if you in US allowed free movement of workforce from all of Latin America and Mexico. My guess is that it wouldn't be very popular.

Those are the valid criticisms.

 

[freegeeks]

You know what I'm talking about. I've linked it for you several times. Many people saw it.

Only supremacist/fundamentalist/extremists would tell someone to go back or talk about or whatever to their "home country" when they aren't even from that country. And now you're saying that you never insulted me. Yeah right.

you can sure link it again

I NEVER TOLD YOU TO GO BACK TO YOUR "HOME" COUNTRY - YOU ARE A LIAR

I only questioned you why you have such a pathetic obsession about Europe and why you never post something about racism in India (because you have Indian "roots)

PLEASE GET THE LINK AND POST IT FOR EVERYONE TO SEE THAT YOU ARE A LIAR AND PM THE MODS I'M SURE THEY WILL SANCTION ANY RACIST BEHAVIOR

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
LOL

so his remarks are not offensive thread crapping,
he's posting drivel about refugees in bunkers in a thread that discusses tne neutrality policy of Switserland
and you think that is normal

you are also showing your true colours,

nice one :thumbsup:

As I said, I didn't read all of them. That Switzerland one was stupid.

At least you did not even bother to refute the statements that I claim agains tyou.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: freegeeks
LOL

so his remarks are not offensive thread crapping,
he's posting drivel about refugees in bunkers in a thread that discusses tne neutrality policy of Switserland
and you think that is normal

you are also showing your true colours,

nice one :thumbsup:

As I said, I didn't read all of them. That Switzerland one was stupid.

At least you did not even bother to refute the statements that I claim agains tyou.

I think you have a selective reading problem

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

You know what I'm talking about. I've linked it for you several times. Many people saw it.

Only supremacist/fundamentalist/extremists would tell someone to go back or talk about or whatever to their "home country" when they aren't even from that country. And now you're saying that you never insulted me. Yeah right.

you can sure link it again

I NEVER TOLD YOU TO GO BACK TO YOUR "HOME" COUNTRY - YOU ARE A LIAR

I only questioned you why you have such a pathetic obsession about Europe and why you never post something about racism in India (because you have Indian "roots)

PLEASE GET THE LINK AND POST IT FOR EVERYONE TO SEE THAT YOU ARE A LIAR AND PM THE MODS I'M SURE THEY WILL SANCTION ANY RACIST BEHAVIOR

Oh, interesting how he now remembers. No, you referred to it as my "home country" It's like me saying why don't you address what's happening in Zimbabwe.

I don't think it's a pathetic obsession with Europe. This is a very important topic, and routinely it's polled as the most important political topic in Europe. I find it interesting that you're so against it.

Everything isn't about you. Just like how you're turning this thread about me and you, get your ego in check. This thread is about Turkey and the EU.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: freegeeks
LOL

so his remarks are not offensive thread crapping,
he's posting drivel about refugees in bunkers in a thread that discusses tne neutrality policy of Switserland
and you think that is normal

you are also showing your true colours,

nice one :thumbsup:

As I said, I didn't read all of them. That Switzerland one was stupid.

At least you did not even bother to refute the statements that I claim agains tyou.

I think you have a selective reading problem

How so?

 

[freegeeks]

Oh, interesting how he now remembers. No, you referred to it as my "home country" It's like me saying why don't you address what's happening in Zimbabwe.

I don't think it's a pathetic obsession with Europe. This is a very important topic, and routinely it's polled as the most important political topic in Europe. I find it interesting that you're so against it.

Everything isn't about you. Just like how you're turning this thread about me and you, get your ego in check. This thread is about Turkey and the EU.

I'm waiting for the link, did you already PM'ed the mods about my racist insults - come on they will ban me for these remarks

oh wait a minute, there aren't any insults, just canworms accusing people of being racist and then failing to deliver the proof -- LIKE always

you are turning every other thread about Europe in YOUR thread because of your remarks as clearly demonstrated by the examples I posted

you've been EXPOSED again

goodbye, and as always you can have the last word, I have to go play my weekly soccer game (with a Maroccan team mate btw)

:music: isn't it ironic :music:

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Oh, interesting how he now remembers. No, you referred to it as my "home country" It's like me saying why don't you address what's happening in Zimbabwe.

I don't think it's a pathetic obsession with Europe. This is a very important topic, and routinely it's polled as the most important political topic in Europe. I find it interesting that you're so against it.

Everything isn't about you. Just like how you're turning this thread about me and you, get your ego in check. This thread is about Turkey and the EU.

I'm waiting for the link, did you already PM'ed the mods about my racist insults - come on they will ban me for these remarks

oh wait a minute, there aren't any insults, just canworms accusing people of being racist and then failing to deliver the proof -- LIKE always

Where did I call you a racist?

Why do you need a link when you magically remember it now? I'm not your dog like you think. I'm not going to search through thousands of posts right now for that particular post of you using an ethnicity-based "insult" (have to put it in quotes since it was such a pathetic attempt).

you are turning every other thread about Europe in YOUR thread because of your remarks as clearly demonstrated by the examples I posted

Um, all of those threads were about Europe, and most of the posts were related to a topic being discussed. And they didn't even turn into flamefests by me like you turned this thread to you. Yet here you are with your big ego, trying to make a thread about the EU and Turkey into about you and me, yet again.

BTW, I'm still waiting on the passport scan, Frankie.

 

[JackStorm]

Hrm...I seem to recall one of the reasons why Turkey has never been accepted into the E.U. is because of their poor human rights record. Has this somehow changed now? Because if it hasn't improved, then I don't see why they should be accepted untill they've fixed those problems.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Hrm...I seem to recall one of the reasons why Turkey has never been accepted into the E.U. is because of their poor human rights record. Has this somehow changed now? Because if it hasn't improved, then I don't see why they should be accepted untill they've fixed those problems.

Then why/how did many of the Eastern European countries get into the EU? Many of them have horrible human rights records, too. In fact, many critics and diplomats have stated that the EU didn't even look at human rights records for them, especially in regards to countries like Slovenia.

 

[JackStorm]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Then why/how did many of the Eastern European countries get into the EU? Many of them have horrible human rights records, too.

I'm sure some of them do, and as for why they were added, who knows. But why add yet another country with a poor record?

Personally, I'm just waiting for the day the E.U. collapses. I'm one of those people who never fully believed the E.U would work. Which is also why I voted against Sweden joining the EMU.

In fact, many critics and diplomats have stated that the EU didn't even look at human rights records for them, especially in regards to countries like Slovenia.

I'm a critic of the E.U myself. But for some reason I get the feeling a lot of those other 'critics' and 'diplomats' have their own reasons for stating that (I trust politicans about as far as I can throw them). I'd take what they say with a grain of salt. Some of them might be trying to undermine the E.U. At least I'm willing to give it a chance, even though I don't have much faith in it, which would explain my no vote when it came to the EMU.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Hrm...I seem to recall one of the reasons why Turkey has never been accepted into the E.U. is because of their poor human rights record. Has this somehow changed now? Because if it hasn't improved, then I don't see why they should be accepted untill they've fixed those problems.

Then why/how did many of the Eastern European countries get into the EU? Many of them have horrible human rights records, too. In fact, many critics and diplomats have stated that the EU didn't even look at human rights records for them, especially in regards to countries like Slovenia.

I think that the problem with Turkey is that it has pretty bad standards all the way around and at the same time it's a very large country. Many of the former Eastern block countries has had same or worse standards than Turkey on many areas, but these countries where much smaller than Turkey. So it would be easier to get them on the right path.
As far as I know EU has lots of pretty strict rules about production af all kind of goods (more bereaucratic than US), and it's pretty important that I can trust other EU countries to live up to these rules as much as I trust my own country. And even though it sound like a common prejudice, I have the feeling there are countries where EU rules are taken i bit less seriuosly. These are the countries placed around the mediterranian sea. So it's pretty important for all countries in the EU to make effort to uphold these rules. While the large cities of Turkey are pretty much like some western cities, large part of the country side is more similar to poor areas in the middle east, and for that to fit into EU milk quota/registration systems (as an example) there really has to be done a lot. But none the less Turkey will not join EU before the next ten years, so lots can have happened then.

 

[Kibbo]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms


Not only are you most likely lying, but what's the point of bringing that up in a discussion about Turkey and the EU (take that flag off your head)? Please provide a link.

That's been posted twice in here just recently. Try to keep up.

Turkey and its people are viewed as inferior by most in Europe. This 17th century attitude needs to be corrected.

I think that you are most likely lying. Please provide a link.

 

[Turkish]

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I doubt that most European people would even want Turkey in the EU. They probably see it as poor, too different in culture, and are 'afraid' of the thought of many Muslims/Turks 'invading' their countries.

Some of the newer countries in the EU were poor, corrupt, etc. and they invited them in. The key difference is their ethnicity, religion, and culture are generally different. In the current atmosphere of discrimination, xenophobia, etc. in Europe, that's going to be hard to overcome.

No, the differnce is that Turkey is even more behind and have a population around 80 mio people and there must be some large reforms of the EU before it can run financially. I'm not denying that lots of people are aginst Turkey joining, but since they have ~10 years to getting custom to the idea I think it will change. Imagine if you in US allowed free movement of workforce from all of Latin America and Mexico. My guess is that it wouldn't be very popular.

Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

 

[Turkish]

Also, please keep personal flames out of this thread as Turkey - EU discussion is far more interesting to read as it will not affect just the EU and Turkey, but U.S.A. and other countries as well.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: The Boss

Originally posted by: biostud

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I doubt that most European people would even want Turkey in the EU. They probably see it as poor, too different in culture, and are 'afraid' of the thought of many Muslims/Turks 'invading' their countries.

Some of the newer countries in the EU were poor, corrupt, etc. and they invited them in. The key difference is their ethnicity, religion, and culture are generally different. In the current atmosphere of discrimination, xenophobia, etc. in Europe, that's going to be hard to overcome.

No, the differnce is that Turkey is even more behind and have a population around 80 mio people and there must be some large reforms of the EU before it can run financially. I'm not denying that lots of people are aginst Turkey joining, but since they have ~10 years to getting custom to the idea I think it will change. Imagine if you in US allowed free movement of workforce from all of Latin America and Mexico. My guess is that it wouldn't be very popular.

Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

That is just not true, or rather it's not how those of us who actually have been outside our own country see it. The right wing would like to make that the reason, and if you choose only to listen to their arguments then fine. The politicians and those who have the faintest idea of how international politics work would like to have Turkey as a member of EU. One of the large problem is also that with the low growth rates in Germany and France, it's not very popular to start giving money to other contries.
So 80-90% of politicians would like to have Turkey joining and, something like 70-80% of the population think it's a bad idea. So what the politicians are doing is to ease the fear in the population by setting up some strict terms for Turkey, and saying that just because we are negotiating a membership isn't certain. Then they start the negotians with Turkey. And in 10-15 years when the negotiations are nearing an end I think and hope that Turkey will have improved greatly and have a more positive profile amongst europeans.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Aimster
Turkey should def. be allowed to enter the EU. I don't see why it shouldn't.

Many in Europe feel that the people of Turkey are inferior. It will be tough to change these people's views into a 21st century outlook. 60% of Germans wants Turkey to be a second-class EU member, they're too inferior to be seen as equals.

Yeah, they definately need to change their minds. We all know what happened the last time the Germans thought a group of people were inferior...

Yes, that was a shot at Germans. Sorry. The other 40% are cool.

 

[nCred]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: JackStorm
Hrm...I seem to recall one of the reasons why Turkey has never been accepted into the E.U. is because of their poor human rights record. Has this somehow changed now? Because if it hasn't improved, then I don't see why they should be accepted untill they've fixed those problems.

Then why/how did many of the Eastern European countries get into the EU? Many of them have horrible human rights records, too. In fact, many critics and diplomats have stated that the EU didn't even look at human rights records for them, especially in regards to countries like Slovenia.

Is torture common in Slovenia? Bulgaria and Romania have not entered EU becouse they could´nt live up to the EU demands, just like Turkey doesn´t now. BTW 95% of Turkey lies i Asia and not Europe.

 

[nCred]

Originally posted by: The Boss
Turkey has twice the GDP/hand than the countries that will join in 2007 (such as Bulgaria), and a much higher growth rate. Europe is scared to help Turkey as much as it helped Greece back in the day simply because of religion & culture.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/tu.html

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/bu.html

They have lower GDP per capita then Bulgaria.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: nCred
Is torture common in Slovenia? Bulgaria and Romania have not entered EU becouse they could´nt live up to the EU demands, just like Turkey doesn´t now. BTW 95% of Turkey lies i Asia and not Europe.

Turkey, as a nation, has worked very hard to be where they are todya, WRT protecting minority rights, creating a (mostly) secular government (and a legitimate democracy) etc.

The people there have a lot to be proud of, and they are, indeed, proud of what they have accomplished.

If they are not 'ready' for EU membership now, they will be soon. I can only hope decisions won't be made based on the religion of the people in Turkey; they deserve better than that sort of treatment.

 

[Kibbo]

For the record, Slovenia's worst human rights violation happened back during the Yugoslavian civil war. Nationals of other former Yugoslavian regions were asked to affirm their loyalty to Slovenia by applying for full citizenship. Those that didn't were stripped of all benefits of residency, including access to social services and public pensions. They were not arrested, deported, or anything nastier. In 2003, the Slovenian high court ruled that that action breached their constitution, and that the rights of residency would be returned. Recently, Slovenia held a referendum, where 95% of those who voted (low turnout) disagreed with the court ruling. Although this is a negative sign, the referendum holds no legal weight, and the original court ruling still stands. Note that a right wing government was recently elected to form the government there, so likely there will be administrative foot dragging w/r/t this issue.

However, the constitution and the court system in Slovenia has shown its strength, and its commitment to protecting racial equality.

 

[f95toli]

Personally I would like to see Turkey join EU in a few years, I believe we need them just as much as they need us.

However there ARE still unsolved issues:
*Cyprus is a member of EU but is not (officially) recognized by Turkey, obviously this needs to be solved.
*There are still a lot of human rights issues in Turkey, torture is still common and the democracy is still in its infancy.
*The Kurds are still oppressed in Turkey, they were only recently recognized by the Turkish goverment (before that they were known as "Mountain-Turks" and were not allowed to use their own language).

Within the union the biggest issues are probably:
*Turkey is a big country with a large population, including Turkey WILL be a larger step than including for exampe Croatia (which will start negotiating next year)

*Agriculture. If you look at the EU budget you will see that most of the money is spent on supporting European agriculture, this is VERY expensive and reforms have been very slow. Adding another country with a large agrecultural sector will only make the problem wors. This was/is a also big issue when Poland joined.

*Free movement (aka "They will steal our jobs"). This is actually mainly BS, if you look at the polls you will see that the same people who opposed for example Poland and the Baltic states are know talking about Turkey. In reality it is probably not a big issue, people do not move just like that.
We DO have some problems, so the issue can not simply be ignored (which was a misstake some polticians made, for example in Austria which was one reason why Haider and his fellow nutcases were succesfull). Where I live (Sweden) we have already seen a relatively large increase of people comming from the Baltic states, mainly in construction. Since the salaries are lower it is hard for Swedish companies to compete.
However, it is not a huge problem and can be handled. Besides, the economy in Turkey is improving rapidly so when they eventually join I don't think this will be a big issue.

*Turkey is an important member of NATO and very close the US, this IS a problem for many people who want to see EU as a counterweight to the US. One of the biggest crisis so far in the history of EU was when UK, Spain and Italy supported the invation of Iraq and most of the othey countries did not (Poland was not a member at that time) .

*Xenophobia. Definitly exist and is definitly a reason why some people oppose Turkey joining. However, at least officialy this has not been a big issue (yet). We will know for sure how important this factor is until the results of the referendums in France and (probably) Austria are in (that is in about ten years).

It is important to remember that even "normal" negotiations take several years, so no one knows WHEN Turkey can join. However, I am quite confident that they will join eventually (in about ten years or so).
Personally I would also like to see at least one member from North Africa, but that will not happen any time soon.
Bosnia, Macedonia and maybe even Ukraine are other "obvious" members and should be allowed to join if they want to if you ask me.

 

[freegeeks]

another class act from Canoworms

Tell me about Sweden

Question from a Swedish member

I´m from sweden and I´m going to Texas later in the summer and will stay there for a whole year.
It would be nice to know what americans think and know about sweden.

So please, tell me what you think and know!

Canoworms reply

If you have any racist or discriminatory views, you should leave them in sweden (I'm not implying anything about you). That sort of stuff won't make you popular in the US.


So tell me Canoworms, was that also a "joke" , of course you are not "implying" anything

 

[Aimster]

Turkey really needs to work on its country .. especially when Iran's credit rating beats Turkey for the first time:

http://www.payvand.com/news/04/dec/1157.html

London, Dec 20, IRNA -- Iran's new credit rating is expected to allow the country to sell cheaper debt in the international capital markets following last week's upgrading by Fitch global agency.
Fitch announced on December 14 that it had upgraded Iran's long- term foreign and local currency rating to BB- from B+, but the country's short-term rating was retained at B.

The new rating puts Iran on par with Brazil and Venezuela and immediately above Turkey and Indonesia but still just below Peru and Azerbaijan.

The upgrade follows international credited agencies, including Fitch, being criticized for discriminating against Iran on "political grounds" at an economic conference in London last month.

Announcing its decision to improve Iran's rating, Fitch said it was made on the basis of higher foreign currency earnings from oil, a better legislative environment for economic liberalization and the diminished possibility of sanctions over the country's nuclear program.

Middle East Economic Digest said that high oil income would still make sovereign borrowing unlikely, but believed it would help corporate issues such as Iran Khodro's plans to issue more than dlr 300 million worth of bonds early next year.

The new rating puts Iran just behind the top sub-investment grade of BB+ given to Russia and Egypt. Above that is the investment grade of BBB-, assigned to Kazakhstan and Mexico, progressing to A-, A+, AA- and AAA, the top rating