The Derek Chauvin / George Floyd Trial

[HumblePie]

For those wanting some fairly objective information as the case is on going I recommend, for those with the time, watching R&R law groups youtube channel. Here is the recent video from yesterday.

He is doing daily show on this. Robert Gruler is the one talking and is an active participating criminal defense lawyer.

 

[Viper1j]

Whether drugs OR phony money... it doesn't justify cold blooded murder. I don't know why the other officers are not on trial as well, they were accessory to Murder were they not?

Their trials are scheduled for August.

I think that they will have riots and lots of looting if convicted of murder or not.

There will be a Mardi Gras like atmosphere upon conviction.

Everybody will be partying and getting laid too much to consider a riot.

 

[Vic]

Complete cities have not been burned to the ground. Just large pieces of them.

Read what I said... Duh.

You do realize you can riot and loot without burning.
Right?

What do you think is going to happen with a conviction or not?

By "large pieces of them," you mean almost no pieces of them, right? Even Portland hasn't had a single block "burned to the ground" by rioters.

And what I personally believe is happening is that a large percentage of Americans are more concerned about the logical results of injustice than they are about the injustice itself. And that's because they support the injustice, they support a "big govt" taking away the rights and freedoms of their fellow Americans, they cheer on govt agents murdering citizens in the streets, as long as it's not happening to them, the "patriots."
I mean, these "patriots" believe their free speech is being infringed upon if someone else exercises their own free speech to disagree with them, and they complain about how persecuted they are if they get "canceled" (which really means that other people choose not to associate with them). They even chant "law and order" while they take up arms and riot inside the Capitol building, with Congress in session, in an attempt to overturn an election.
But if a black guy mildly resists arrest over a likely bogus claim that he passed a $20 counterfeit bill, then those very same "patriots" will make up all sorts of bullshit to justify that that fellow American had no rights or freedoms to begin with, and how he deserved to be murdered by the govt. The hypocrisy is beyond irony.

 

[brycejones]

By "large pieces of them," you mean almost no pieces of them, right? Even Portland hasn't had a single block "burned to the ground" by rioters.

And what I personally believe is happening is that a large percentage of Americans are more concerned about the logical results of injustice than they are about the injustice itself. And that's because they support the injustice, they support a "big govt" taking away the rights and freedoms of their fellow Americans, they cheer on govt agents murdering citizens in the streets, as long as it's not happening to them, the "patriots."
I mean, these "patriots" believe their free speech is being infringed upon if someone else exercises their own free speech to disagree with them, and they complain about how persecuted they are if they get "canceled" (which really means that other people choose not to associate with them). They even chant "law and order" while they take up arms and riot inside the Capitol building, with Congress in session, in an attempt to overturn an election.
But if a black guy mildly resists arrest over a likely bogus claim that he passed a $20 counterfeit bill, then those very same "patriots" will make up all sorts of bullshit to justify that that fellow American had no rights or freedoms to begin with, and how he deserved to be murdered by the govt. The hypocrisy is beyond irony.

Don't forget however the discriminated against protest its always the "wrong way or wrong time" to do so.

 

[HomerJS]

Their trials are scheduled for August.



There will be a Mardi Gras like atmosphere upon conviction.

Everybody will be partying and getting laid too much to consider a riot.

The sad part is holding police accountable for unjustified killings should be normal. I perfectly understand why people will be celebrating.

 

[Lanyap]

Not terribly relevant. Cops were called for the fake $20. The actions/intent of the officer on trial and the actions of the deceased will hopefully determine the outcome here. Of course the media has already convinced everyone that the cop is guilty of murder, so if he's convicted of anything less that riots will ensue.

Lot's of pics, videos and eye witnesses for the public to make a decision. I guess some people will decide based on media reports. People who watch fox news, newsmax, oann, etc. have already made their minds up that Floyd was a bad dude and had it coming. It was his fault that the cops murdered him. "Mainstream media" watchers on the other hand probably think the cops are guilty. We report, you decide...

 

[pauldun170]

I'm kinda assuming the following based on previous events
Chauvin gets off
Chauvin gets hired by a small police department elsewhere and gets a nice side hustle doing interviews with right wing outlets. Attends rallies and stuff and has his hand shaken.
Blacks will march in the streets carrying signs and shout slogans. Do a couple of interviews. Go home because they know how this crap turns out when the uninvited guests show up.
White people in masks will show up and wreck the place. White people in cosplay will show up and pose with police officers.
Random young people will show up to be part of "something". End up wandering around aimlessly until they get shot in the face with tear gas. Women will then shout at police officers escalating things resulting in every boyfriend at the protest getting punched by random strangers because his girlfriend started an argument with some random white dude playing cosplay.
Police officers will beat the shit out of reporters and anyone still who appears to be a pro-protestor.
In very specific areas with pre-existing conditions, the normal opportunist will come out afterwards.
People will then ignore everything else and focus on that last line and assume "Blacks marching = Looting" and "Black Marching = Rioting"

 

[Lanyap]

nm

 

[NWRMidnight]

He wasn't symptomatic for COVID. Are you trying to argue that they should have considered that he had it? He could have had any respiratory ailment, I suppose.

I'm getting tired of this exchange. I think the officers are guilty, but I think his repeated "I can't breath" statements will not help the prosecution. You can go listen to the recording and decide for yourself.

He wasn't symptomatic? Do you believe that have shortness of breath, and/or having difficulty breathing has to be visible for it to be taking place? If so, then why is one of the first things asked during a heart attack is if you are having difficult breathing by doctor's and EMT's if it is something you can see? (speaking from experience, that experience is also why I know about being agitated and acting irrational.. you can ask the EMT's who took me to the hospital or rather any EMT about how people act when they can't breath and/or fear the worst.. It's something you just can't really explain). It's a normal defense mechanism.

As for COVID-19:

Symptoms may appear 2-14 days after exposure to the virus. People with these symptoms may have COVID-19:
Fever or chills
Cough
Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing <------------------- (I can't breath) Isn't that a symptom? Shouldn't it be taken seriously during a pandemic when it's one of the top symptoms?
Fatigue
Muscle or body aches
Headache
New loss of taste or smell
Sore throat
Congestion or runny nose
Nausea or vomiting
Diarrhea


So Yes, they should sure as hell considered he had COVID-19, when difficulty breathing is one of the top symptoms since the beginning of the pandemic. But instead, they ignored the 5 times he said he can't breath, PRIOR to being on the ground. And some how, you think that will hurt the prosecution, even though the autopsy indicated he had COVID-19.

The only time it would be acceptable for a police officer to not stop and take a pause and consider that the man was showing symptoms of COVID-19 or other medical issues involving shortness of breath, difficulty breathing is if they where dealing with a violent criminal who committed a violent crime.. but this was all over an alleged counter fit $20.

 

[Torn Mind]

Not terribly relevant. Cops were called for the fake $20. The actions/intent of the officer on trial and the actions of the deceased will hopefully determine the outcome here. Of course the media has already convinced everyone that the cop is guilty of murder, so if he's convicted of anything less that riots will ensue.

I may despise BLM the organization but as I have stated in this thread, I am fully convinced that Chauvin actually murdered him in the first degree. The premeditation could have happened at any point from Floyd ejecting himself out of the vehicle to possibly 2 minutes after the knee was on his neck, or perhaps much earlier during their prior interactions. Obtaining that is legally impossible because Chavuin would never admit on the record he thought that. The cops know the weasel tactics of escaping the laws because they themselves are trained in it. So they immediately pounce on the window dressing factors such as drugs even though Floyd was of sound mind and body.

In such a situation, his senses would be magnified and every detail that passes every second would be under his attention.

With his knee on his Floyd's body, there is plenty of feedback by touch that Chauvin would be able to process in addition to the visual to comprehend when Floyd's was sufficently weakened.

Riots are a necessary moral correction for legal inadequacy.

 

[HomerJS]

I may despise BLM the organization but as I have stated in this thread, I am fully convinced that Chauvin actually murdered him in the first degree. The premeditation could have happened at any point from Floyd ejecting himself out of the vehicle to possibly 2 minutes after the knee was on his neck, or perhaps much earlier during their prior interactions. Obtaining that is legally impossible because Chavuin would never admit on the record he thought that. The cops know the weasel tactics of escaping the laws because they themselves are trained in it. So they immediately pounce on the window dressing factors such as drugs even though Floyd was of sound mind and body.

In such a situation, his senses would be magnified and every detail that passes every second would be under his attention.

With his knee on his Floyd's body, there is plenty of feedback by touch that Chauvin would be able to process in addition to the visual to comprehend when Floyd's was sufficently weakened.

Riots are a necessary moral correction for legal inadequacy.

If I guess you don't believe in the necessity of BLM's cause would I be correct? The premise being black lives are not treated like they matter.

 

[Torn Mind]

He wasn't symptomatic? Do you believe that have shortness of breath, and/or having difficulty breathing has to be visible for it to be taking place? If so, then why is one of the first things asked during a heart attack is if you are having difficult breathing by doctor's and EMT's if it is something you can see? (speaking from experience, that experience is also why I know about being agitated and acting irrational.. you can ask the EMT's who took me to the hospital or rather any EMT about how people act when they can't breath and/or fear the worst.. It's something you just can't really explain). It's a normal defense mechanism.

As for COVID-19:

Symptoms may appear 2-14 days after exposure to the virus. People with these symptoms may have COVID-19:
Fever or chills
Cough
Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing <------------------- (I can't breath) Isn't that a symptom? Shouldn't it be taken seriously during a pandemic when it's one of the top symptoms?
Fatigue
Muscle or body aches
Headache
New loss of taste or smell
Sore throat
Congestion or runny nose
Nausea or vomiting
Diarrhea


So Yes, they should sure as hell considered he had COVID-19, when difficulty breathing is one of the top symptoms since the beginning of the pandemic. But instead, they ignored the 5 times he said he can't breath, PRIOR to being on the ground. And some how, you think that will hurt the prosecution, even though the autopsy indicated he had COVID-19.

The only time it would be acceptable for a police officer to not stop and take a pause and consider that the man was showing symptoms of COVID-19 or other medical issues involving shortness of breath, difficulty breathing is if they where dealing with a violent criminal who committed a violent crime.. but this was all over an alleged counter fit $20.

He would also be displaying signs of exhaustion and fatigue. Something I did not see from him.


I don't think Chubbyemu is some right wing nut. Here he explains the following that Floyd was not materially affect by drugs or COVID. .

Floyd was making excuses and in engaging in deception. Very simple. He says one thing but contradicts himself via his actions. That people cannot see such obvious lying is frankly pathetic.
Claustrophobia was another excuse, a lie, from Floyd. He was just in another vehicle and was being transported into a SUV sized vehicle.

He also was perfectly fine in the store, showing no indications of exhaustion, but almost a sort of fidgety goofiness. I am watching live at just watched store footage; they are in recess.

 

[dank69]

He would also be displaying signs of exhaustion and fatigue. Something I did not see from him.


I don't think Chubbyemu is some right wing nut. Here he explains the following that Floyd was not materially affect by drugs or COVID. .

Floyd was making excuses and in engaging in deception. Very simple. He says one thing but contradicts himself via his actions. That people cannot see such obvious lying is frankly pathetic.
Claustrophobia was another excuse, a lie, from Floyd. He was just in another vehicle and was being transported into a SUV sized vehicle.

He also was perfectly fine in the store, showing no indications of exhaustion, but almost a sort of fidgety goofiness. I am watching live at just watched store footage; they are in recess.

All immaterial.

 

[Torn Mind]

If I guess you don't believe in the necessity of BLM's cause would I be correct? The premise being black lives are not treated like they matter.

Read the organization's principles. I will never accept any form of Marxist trained agents as benevolent or beneficial.
Trained Marxists never provide what they p

 

[Torn Mind]

All immaterial.

I already know George Floyd's immorality is separate from Chauvin's legal transgression. You like debating air?

 

[dank69]

I already know George Floyd's immorality is separate from Chauvin's legal transgression. You like debating air?

Then why waste time even mentioning it? What purpose does it serve other than muddying the water?

 

[NWRMidnight]

He would also be displaying signs of exhaustion and fatigue. Something I did not see from him.


I don't think Chubbyemu is some right wing nut. Here he explains the following that Floyd was not materially affect by drugs or COVID. .

Floyd was making excuses and in engaging in deception. Very simple. He says one thing but contradicts himself via his actions. That people cannot see such obvious lying is frankly pathetic.
Claustrophobia was another excuse, a lie, from Floyd. He was just in another vehicle and was being transported into a SUV sized vehicle.

He also was perfectly fine in the store, showing no indications of exhaustion, but almost a sort of fidgety goofiness. I am watching live at just watched store footage; they are in recess.

what are you trying to argue with that YouTube video? Do you know what adrenaline does to a person, sick or not? Besides, it doesn't matter. That is all AFTER the fact conclusions. Police are supposed to be trained in recognizing people in distress, but when you have only one focus, that goes out the window.

Also, you have already used Floyd's past and his girl friend's criminal past, to form your opinion, which disqualifies your position because his past and his girlfriend's past are not relevant to what happened. But you have allowed it to cloud your judgement and empathy of him based on his past actions. Do you know, in this case, his past history is irrelevant. And his girlfriend's criminal history is for sure not relevant.

 

[woolfe9998]

He wasn't symptomatic? Do you believe that have shortness of breath, and/or having difficulty breathing has to be visible for it to be taking place? If so, then why is one of the first things asked during a heart attack is if you are having difficult breathing by doctor's and EMT's if it is something you can see? (speaking from experience, that experience is also why I know about being agitated and acting irrational.. you can ask the EMT's who took me to the hospital or rather any EMT about how people act when they can't breath and/or fear the worst.. It's something you just can't really explain). It's a normal defense mechanism.

As for COVID-19:

Symptoms may appear 2-14 days after exposure to the virus. People with these symptoms may have COVID-19:
Fever or chills
Cough
Shortness of breath or difficulty breathing <------------------- (I can't breath) Isn't that a symptom? Shouldn't it be taken seriously during a pandemic when it's one of the top symptoms?
Fatigue
Muscle or body aches
Headache
New loss of taste or smell
Sore throat
Congestion or runny nose
Nausea or vomiting
Diarrhea


So Yes, they should sure as hell considered he had COVID-19, when difficulty breathing is one of the top symptoms since the beginning of the pandemic. But instead, they ignored the 5 times he said he can't breath, PRIOR to being on the ground. And some how, you think that will hurt the prosecution, even though the autopsy indicated he had COVID-19.

The only time it would be acceptable for a police officer to not stop and take a pause and consider that the man was showing symptoms of COVID-19 or other medical issues involving shortness of breath, difficulty breathing is if they where dealing with a violent criminal who committed a violent crime.. but this was all over an alleged counter fit $20.

I didn't say it would hurt the prosecution. I said it wouldn't help them. When this started, people kept talking about how many times he said "I can't breath" during the video. They did not know at the time that he was already saying it before they laid a hand on him.

It wasn't COVID though. It was most likely a panic attack brought on by the combination of being arrested and being on meth. Per the medical examiner:

But the virus played no known role in his death and he was likely not contagious, the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's office said in its final report Wednesday.
"Since ... positivity for (Covid-19) can persist for weeks after the onset and resolution of clinical disease, the autopsy result most likely reflects asymptomatic but persistent ... positivity from previous infection," it said.

If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that even though he didn't have symptomatic COVID, that the officers should have considered that he might have had it? That is not a great argument to a jury. There are many other facts which will be more persuasive to a jury than the "I can't breath" statement.

I would leave that statement alone. The defense is going to use the taped conversation to show that Floyd was being irrational and that they couldn't take anything he said seriously.

Focus instead on the basic fact that the force used was unnecessary under the circumstances, given that he was unarmed and cuffed. And while they kneeled on him, that he began to quietly whimper, then went totally silent. That they persisted in kneeling on him in spite of the fact that while he had been very talkative before, he had gone motionless. That they persisted in spite of warnings from the crowd, including that of a paramedic. That they persisted even after checking his pulse and finding he had none.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I didn't say it would hurt the prosecution. I said it wouldn't help them. When this started, people kept talking about how many times he said "I can't breath" during the video. They did not know at the time that he was already saying it before they laid a hand on him.

It wasn't COVID though. It was most likely a panic attack brought on by the combination of being arrested and being on meth. Per the medical examiner:



If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that even though he didn't have symptomatic COVID, that the officers should have considered that he might have had it? That is not a great argument to a jury. There are many other facts which will be more persuasive to a jury than the "I can't breath" statement.

I would leave that statement alone. The defense is going to use the taped conversation to show that Floyd was being irrational and that they couldn't take anything he said seriously.

Focus instead on the fact that while they kneeled on him, that he began to quietly whimper, then went totally silent. That they persisted in kneeling on him in spite of the fact that while he had been very talkative before, he had gone motionless. That they persisted in spite of warnings from the crowd, including that of a paramedic. That they persisted even after checking his pulse and finding he had none.

How is not helping the prosecution not going against them? If it doesn't help the prosecution, then it hurts them. There is no "neutral ground". Specially when you said the defense will probably try to use that against them.

You keep saying he didn't have symptoms, but he kept telling them he can't breath, which is one of the prominent symptoms of COVID-19 that you say he didn't have. So, just like the police, you are IGNORING his statements of "I can't breathe", which is the ONLY way that symptom can be diagnosed short of medical equipment. You seem to believe that because he was saying it before they laid hands on him, it doesn't mean anything, when the opposite is true. You are trying to make conclusions that it was from the police. You don't know that. Neither do I, nobody knows because it was ignored at that time, just as you are doing now. All of your conclusions are based off AFTER the fact information, or rather, your interpretation of that information.

Let the defense show them the tape of him being irrational. BEING IRRATIONAL is an AUTOMATIC built in defense mechanism when you are in distress. Now, if he didn't say "I can't Breathe" then you can say his distress was from the police, but since he said "I can't breathe" multiple times BEFORE being on the ground, nobody can conclude that it wasn't from COVID-19 at that time. (the only reason you can say it wasn't COVID, is because AFTER the fact conclusions.) The only reason we are in this argument is you said his stating that won't help the prosecution, when in fact, it will strengthen their case as it shows they disregarded his statements. It is just as relevant to when he was on the ground in the way of showing motive. AKA a person with only one motive will disregard everything else. (tunnel vision with only one desired outcome)

Now, if this wasn't during the pandemic of COVID-19, and/or if this was a violent situation where Floyd committed a violent act (he didn't) then your argument would be sound. But that isn't the case, since it was during the pandemic, he claimed multiple times he can't breath, which once again, was one of the top KNOWN symptoms at the time for COVID-19 and he didn't commit any violent crime, it once again strengthens the prosecution's case as it shows there was only one focus and motive, and they purposely disregarded any signs (physical and/or verbal) of distress.

 

[MrSquished]

Complete cities have not been burned to the ground. Just large pieces of them.

Read what I said... Duh.

You do realize you can riot and loot without burning.
Right?

What do you think is going to happen with a conviction or not?

Large pieces of major american cities were burned to the ground? 😀😀😀😀

Oh man you people just don't exist in reality.

 

[woolfe9998]

How is not helping the prosecution not going against them? If it doesn't help the prosecution, then it hurts them. There is no "neutral ground". Specially when you said the defense will probably try to use that against them.

The statement itself is of neutral significance. Dwelling on it, and for that matter, everything that was said before they kneeled on him, would probably hurt them.

You keep saying he didn't have symptoms, but he kept telling them he can't breath, which is one of the prominent symptoms of COVID-19 that you say he didn't have. So, just like the police, you are IGNORING his statements of "I can't breathe", which is the ONLY way that symptom can be diagnosed short of medical equipment.

You seem to be confused. It isn't ME who is saying he didn't have symptomatic COVID. It's the country medical examiner. It's in their report.

Let the defense show them the tape of him being irrational. BEING IRRATIONAL is an AUTOMATIC built in defense mechanism when you are in distress. Now, if he didn't say "I can't Breathe" then you can say his distress was from the police, but since he said "I can't breathe" multiple times BEFORE being on the ground, nobody can conclude that it wasn't from COVID-19 at that time. (the only reason you can say it wasn't COVID, is because AFTER the fact conclusions.) The only reason we are in this argument is you said him stating that won't help the prosecution, when in fact, it will strengthen their case as it shows they disregarded his statements. It is just as relevant to when he was on the ground in the way of showing motive. AKA a person with only one motive will disregard everything else.

I understand your argument. You're saying that they should have considered the possibility that he had COVID. That argument is not needed. The fact is, they had no justification for the force they used, whether we were in a pandemic or not.

Focusing on "I can't breath" as well as all the stuff he said before they kneeled on him is a distraction that is playing to the defense arguments. For example, aside from saying he couldn't breathe, he also said he couldn't get into the car because he was "claustrophobic," yet he was in a car when they initially encountered him. They are going to say that he was acting like a drama queen and that they believed all his behavior while the kneeled on him was an act.

If I'm the prosecution I'm going to say that none of that matters. What matters is that he was cuffed and they had no reason to apply that level of force, let alone persist at it for as long as they did.

Now, if this wasn't during the pandemic of COVID-19, and/or if this was a violent situation where Floyd committed a violent act (he didn't) then your argument would be sound. But that isn't the case, since it was during the pandemic, he claimed multiple times he can't breath, which once again, was one of the top KNOWN symptoms at the time for COVID-19 and he didn't commit any violent crime, it once again strengthens the prosecution's case as it shows there was only one focus and motive, and they purposely disregarded any signs (physical and/or verbal) of distress.

I just don't think it matters as much that this happened during COVID as you think it does. It DOES matter that he wasn't being violent though. That fact is crucial.

 

[nakedfrog]

Read the organization's principles. I will never accept any form of Marxist trained agents as benevolent or beneficial.
Trained Marxists never provide what they p

Hm.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013 in response to the acquittal of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is a global organization in the US, UK, and Canada, whose mission is to eradicate white supremacy and build local power to intervene in violence inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes. By combating and countering acts of violence, creating space for Black imagination and innovation, and centering Black joy, we are winning immediate improvements in our lives.

We are expansive. We are a collective of liberators who believe in an inclusive and spacious movement. We also believe that in order to win and bring as many people with us along the way, we must move beyond the narrow nationalism that is all too prevalent in Black communities. We must ensure we are building a movement that brings all of us to the front.

We affirm the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, undocumented folks, folks with records, women, and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. Our network centers those who have been marginalized within Black liberation movements.

We are working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically targeted for demise.

We affirm our humanity, our contributions to this society, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.

The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.

Could you be so kind as to point out the Marxism to me?

 

[JEDIYoda]

PEOPLE, PEOPLE....Don`t be afraid to say that you believe Chavin is innocent! Most of us believe otherwise! But you are allowed to have your misguided opinion!

 

[nakedfrog]

PEOPLE, PEOPLE....Don`t be afraid to say that you believe Chavin is innocent! Most of us believe otherwise! But you are allowed to have your misguided opinion!

Is his innocence or guilt even relevant?

 

[HomerJS]

Hm.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

Could you be so kind as to point out the Marxism to me?

I have the same question or is is just another right wing talking point like...

socialist
radical