The Constitutional right to a job.

[JellyBaby]

LunarRay, Patrick J. Buchannan for president? He's prolly got one more run in him.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: JellyBaby
LunarRay, Patrick J. Buchanan for president? He's prolly got one more run in him.

He'd do things a bit faster than I would. A very slow transition is my solution because of the dependence on the US by lots of nations.. sorta like raising kids and watching them grow... but, If we go broke in the mean time... there is stress a plenty...

I know that we could do it and if we did have jobs available and some of the lazy folks didn't want to work well... sorry. If folks were truly needy we could care for them with no problems and have a national health care system... just think another 60 million jobs than now.. an economy of massive thrillions.. lower taxation maybe even a flat tax or VAT.. we could do anything with full employment.
Heck me and the Beamer could even kick back and read Plato, Homer and what's his face.... Confucius.. instead of pontificating on the merits of what could be... if we only wanted to ...

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
Nyet, Drag

The real issue is a simple one and it is very capitalist if you look beyond the sound of 'jobs'. Don't you think the role of the government is to initiate and maintain a strong economy? If you do, and don't you think they try, what is the result of that strong economy? Might it be JOBS? It seems to me that is why we have all these government economists bouncing about. We have Monetary and Fiscal policies of observable competence. Who makes these decisions? (I didn't say bad) And why do they even bother. It, I suggest, is to sustain the very best economic environment possible and with that JOBS. The jobs fuel the economy and pay the taxes that enable the foreign policy that we embark on both of war and humanitarian aid. Jobs do this and that is why it is the Governments responsibility to create them and if that is their job why would there job be to not try and create a job for everyone through the economic policies. Are some folks better? I don't think so. But the day this government says to its citizens, "you pay us to do only a so so job and those of you who can't find a job, tuff! Those who work but, can't live tuff!" How long do you think that Royal Government will stay in power? The Constitution was adopted with these self evident ideals in mind. It had to because to measure perfection in an economy you only get an A if everyone is employed... it is a right because it is a duty. Our government has the duty and its citizens the right.

It's silly. The government can't control or direct the economy any more then they can control the rain. It's a natural reaction of peopel interacting together. Can you control the wind? Can you MAKE food grow? Can you make people be productive? Can you force me to go out and make cars? No of course not. Anybody who beleives that the government controls and directs the economy of the United States are delusional as the people who try. Just because somebody has a degree or goes around saying they know what the economic forcast is in 30 years is smoking crack. The government has the duty to f-off and let people decide what to do with their time and money.

Anyways the declaration of independance says that it a right for Life, liberty (which is a purely economic idea. If I work for something it is mine and it's up for me to do with it what I will. In otherwords my time and work is spent in pursuits that I see fit. This is the defenition of liberty) and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

You can't garantee HAPPINESS anymore then you can garentee to make me sexy. This is idea that it's the government's duty to make sure that people are productive and ecomonicly successfull is a perversion of the original concept. The pursiut of happiness is YOUR RIGHT AND DUTY. RIGHTS GO BOTH WAYS; YOU GET THE GOOD AND THE BAD, YOU CAN'T BE TREATED LIKE A BABY, BEING GIVEN EVERYTHING AND EXPECT TO BE HAPPY ABOUT IT.

You can't put a small amount of people in charge of controlling and manipulating the lives of everybody else.

Think about it this way. If I am incharge of a company and make a bad decision, only me and my employees are screwed, or other possible investors. There would always be some other company ready to take my place in the economy. That way the rest of the population are isolated from the long range effects of my bad business desicions.

HOWEVER

If I am in the government and make a bad decision about the economy of the country the entire country suffers. And the suffering will go on for a long time. What if I made a bad decision and try to compicate it with a worse desicion what happens to the country? The whole country goes in the toliet. This one of the reasons that US's economic model is more successfull then the more socialist countries. Even if you mean well as a ruler of a country (weither your democraticly elected or not, doesn't enter into it) you will make bad decisions every once and a while. This could end up killing people, or destroying peoples lives.

This is why the promise of socialism is a fallacy. No human being is fit to control thousands/millions of other people. Think about what mistakes you've made in your life. Everybody else is the same way. But since we are not in charge of millions of people then they only affect us and people close to us. Do you realy want these mistakes to amplified by the power to control people lives?

Time and time again its been proven that the majority of the people are usually right. So if the majority of people are allowed to control there own lives then things will work out the majority of the time. It's freedom. It's a self leveling affair. You don't need to control it, because it's simply the NATURAL state that we are suppose to exist in.

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends...

This means that the government is created to protect our right TO PURSUE HAPPINESS. It's not the goverment's job to enforce happiness. The only way the government can control "hapiness" (a concept you express in purely economic terms, which is silly in the first place), is by taking money from some and giving it to others. This is a violation of those people's Liberty and should be considured destructive of people's rights. This is something that the government should not do.

It's not the government's job to watch out for the economy then it is for me to make you feel good.

 

[Moonbeam]

Not only is this a lousy worthless selfish dog eat dog world, but I insist that it be. I demand that it be. I will absolutely go nuts if it isn't. Damn, I sold my soul to play this game well. Nobody's going to come along and change the rules. I like being sick and my life ambition and all my drive are focused on becoming sicker.

 

[Corn]

YOU CAN'T BE TREATED LIKE A BABY, BEING GIVEN EVERYTHING AND EXPECT TO BE HAPPY ABOUT IT.

Acutally, Moonbeam does.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Not only is this a lousy worthless selfish dog eat dog world, but I insist that it be. I demand that it be. I will absolutely go nuts if it isn't. Damn, I sold my soul to play this game well. Nobody's going to come along and change the rules. I like being sick and my life ambition and all my drive are focused on becoming sicker.

No - its just that to FORCE others to pay for your lazy ass is not right - no matter which way you look at it. People who NEED help get it and should get it(help) but those that are just plain not motivated by personal responsibilty shouldn't be able to force the rest of us to do their work for them.

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

Oh glorious universe, I thank you from the bottom of my heart and with tears of the deepest joy for the infinite blessings of my life. I am staggered by your dimensions and depth, by your infinite wonder. On the shores of this world I was given this short time meteoric life. It is unbelievable. I cannot comprehend. I am stunned with awe. I who am nothing have been given everything. I don't understand but I wish your splendor upon all.

Thank you Corn. I am forever remiss in my gratitude.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Not only is this a lousy worthless selfish dog eat dog world, but I insist that it be. I demand that it be. I will absolutely go nuts if it isn't. Damn, I sold my soul to play this game well. Nobody's going to come along and change the rules. I like being sick and my life ambition and all my drive are focused on becoming sicker.

No - its just that to FORCE others to pay for your lazy ass is not right - no matter which way you look at it. People who NEED help get it and should get it(help) but those that are just plain not motivated by personal responsibilty shouldn't be able to force the rest of us to do their work for them.

CkG

Caddy, if your worhless ass is worth anything at all it's because of other people.

 

[Corn]

Thank you Corn. I am forever remiss in my gratitude.

You're welcome Moonie, and as your President, the first thing I'd do for you is give you a paper picker. I wouldn't want you to not have the tools necessary to fufill the duties of your mandated vocation. I'm sure you'll also find the clothing, food, and residence that I'll provide for you to be "satisfactory". Truly, you'll want for nothing.

Sounds like heaven, no?

 

[rjain]

Everyone's ass is worth something only because someone else is willing to pay for it. Speaking of paying for ass...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Not only is this a lousy worthless selfish dog eat dog world, but I insist that it be. I demand that it be. I will absolutely go nuts if it isn't. Damn, I sold my soul to play this game well. Nobody's going to come along and change the rules. I like being sick and my life ambition and all my drive are focused on becoming sicker.

No - its just that to FORCE others to pay for your lazy ass is not right - no matter which way you look at it. People who NEED help get it and should get it(help) but those that are just plain not motivated by personal responsibilty shouldn't be able to force the rest of us to do their work for them.

CkG

Caddy, if your worhless ass is worth anything at all it's because of other people.

Yes - they see benefit from my labor - hence they pay me for it. Now if some lazy ass has a job just because the gov't guarantees him one - what is his motivation to do actual work? Nothing.

Next.

CkG

 

[Moonbeam]

Hehe, I failed to realize that your self congratulatory boobery would blind you to the intent of my remark.

Your employability and opportunities are all come from the efforts of other people. Society gave you everything you have except , of course, for your smug egotistical self flattery. That you created yourself to bandage your shameless lack of humility and desire to hoard your gains.

Comming soon to your local theater.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hehe, I failed to realize that your self congratulatory boobery would blind you to the intent of my remark.

Your employability and opportunities are all come from the efforts of other people. Society gave you everything you have except , of course, for your smug egotistical self flattery. That you created yourself to bandage your shameless lack of humility and desire to hoard your gains.

Comming soon to your local theater.

That's right CAD (geez what an appropraite name) without government action you and your blowhard friends would be nothing more than little serfs renting your whole life. Everything you take for granted from the roads you travel on to your ability to get a home loan to your ability to attend a public university was legislation at one time or another without these supports, there would be no free market in the first place nor any freedom.

 

[DealMonkey]

I don't mean to "geek out" here, but why can't we move towards a system similar to Star Trek? Essentially, everyone finds their little niche, whatever they're good at, and just does it. There's no need for money (apparantly), everyone has their role to play and their needs are taken care of? Aside from random attacks by the Borg, everyone seems pretty happy. I know I'm OT a bit and that I've strayed from reality, but seriously, could it be done?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Corn

Thank you Corn. I am forever remiss in my gratitude.

You're welcome Moonie, and as your President, the first thing I'd do for you is give you a paper picker. I wouldn't want you to not have the tools necessary to fufill the duties of your mandated vocation. I'm sure you'll also find the clothing, food, and residence that I'll provide for you to be "satisfactory". Truly, you'll want for nothing.

Sounds like heaven, no?

Funny you should pick that example, Corn, I used to own a business doing that, picking up papers, cigarette butts, and odd bits from parking lots. A couple of hundred a month a piece for about an hours work. But I didn't use a paper picker, I used a garbage bag and my hands. The butts get in cracks, and the nail don't puncture asphalt. Or I'd sweep with a big push broom. I gave it up after a couple of years cause I didn't need the money and it was cutting into my leisure time.

 

[Corn]

I don't mean to "geek out" here, but why can't we move towards a system similar to Star Trek?

One word: Fiction.

OK, 2 other words: Human nature.

 

[Corn]

Funny you should pick that example, Corn, I used to own a business doing that, picking up papers, cigarette butts, and odd bits from parking lots.

Not funny, simple deductive reasoning, or clairvoyance (as I've previously been accused of by vous).

So, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly did/do you do during your "leisure time"?

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Corn

I don't mean to "geek out" here, but why can't we move towards a system similar to Star Trek?

One word: Fiction.

OK, 2 other words: Human nature.

We are predisposed for cooperation Corn. Most anthropoligists agree until the relativly RECENT avent of capitalism.. egalitarianism, sharing and lack of domination were the most prominent features in hunter-gatherer societies.

A good is example is a family or in my offices. We do what it takes to get the job done. We need to drop self intrest, it's manufactured by capitalism, when in fact true self intrest are best realised with people working together.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hehe, I failed to realize that your self congratulatory boobery would blind you to the intent of my remark.

Your employability and opportunities are all come from the efforts of other people. Society gave you everything you have except , of course, for your smug egotistical self flattery. That you created yourself to bandage your shameless lack of humility and desire to hoard your gains.

Comming soon to your local theater.

That's right CAD (geez what an appropraite name) without government action you and your blowhard friends would be nothing more than little serfs renting your whole life. Everything you take for granted from the roads you travel on to your ability to get a home loan to your ability to attend a public university was legislation at one time or another without these supports, there would be no free market in the first place nor any freedom.

Damn, I wish I'd thought to use the use 'blowhard'. Pretty much the perfect word.

For the umpteenth time, Corn, you don't know nuthing about human nature. You know about sick human nature. You ain't seen the well and doubtless wouldn't recognize them if you did. An honest man examines his assumptions. For the millions of years or our evolution we were hunter gatherers who survived through each other and owned no more that what went on our backs or in our hands. We did it through social skills, as a team. We are the family of man and all the same. What we have become is civilized beasts, alone in our holes and afraid. Somebody may take my crumb.

 

[naddicott]

Richard Dawkins' "The Selfish Gene" is a good source of reading to understand why this selfish "human nature" theory is an outdated misconception. If you are completely alone and uncaring about anybody besides yourself, it's completely your own doing. Don't blame your genes.

 

[Moonbeam]

Damn, Zebo, I guess the truth is out there. Wow. It's nice to cooperate.

 

[Zebo]

It's weird to me how anti-social behavior (self-intrest) has become so normalized and acceptable behavior.. Seems to me a self-fulfilling prophecy where everyone is entitled to be a immoral, shiftless, self-gratifying, good-for nothing sh1t. I think that's what happening in the world today very slowly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Two heads are better than one.

Wow, ya think?

 

[Corn]

If we are predisposed for cooperation, how do you account for Cain?

We are predisposed for survival. Cooperation was simply a tool used by the primitive to ensure their survival. By nature we are competitive creatures, small cooperative groups constantly waged war against other groups to secure the most fruitful lands. It's easy to be cooperative with "your own".......

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I don't mean to "geek out" here, but why can't we move towards a system similar to Star Trek? Essentially, everyone finds their little niche, whatever they're good at, and just does it. There's no need for money (apparantly), everyone has their role to play and their needs are taken care of? Aside from random attacks by the Borg, everyone seems pretty happy. I know I'm OT a bit and that I've strayed from reality, but seriously, could it be done?

They tried that in China and Russia.