The Book of Mormon is FICTION!

[DaShen]

4567
There can be no doubt that the homoletic problem must give way to undue reliance on derivative materials.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: cscpianoman
Think car accident survivors. There are several instances where people have lived that should not have. Those are the easy ones to point out because you see those ones everyday.

We have one out here that just happened recently. The car accident was really bad, there was not much left of the car. Two of the passengers managed to survive with minor cuts and bruises. The other two were severely injured, one with serious head trauma. The one with head trauma was in a coma for weeks. They did not expect much in the way of any recovery, actually they were suspecting paralysis. He is now out of the coma, in physical therapy, he is talking, he can read, they are expecting a very complet recovery. Miracle? Coincidence? Either way you look at it he should not have lived and if he did live he would have had some major brain trauma which would have prevented him from doing anything.

So how exactly does "god" choose who lives through an accident like this and who doesn't? Millions die that probably didn't deserve it in any way shape or form. Who is in charge then? Guardian angels? Perhaps those thousands of babies who are miscarried on a daily basis, simply had guardian angels who were on their lunch break? Maybe God had the day off.

I've seen a few instances when people walked away from accidents personally, I know what your talking about. In these cases, luck was on there side. That is all. I know this because I've also seen incidents where people didn't walk away when they should have. Luck was against them that day, luck is a mysterious thing. I'm not about to believe that god, or some guardian angel chose to save one in a dire accident, then let another equally good person die, in a much less serious accident. Or maybe its the devil who is interferring, and also playing his own game. Rediculous argument.

 

[AMDZen]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: cscpianoman
For example, for the longest time people accepted the fact the world was flat. They had failed, at the time, to disprove the hypothesis. They had no evidence to suggest otherwise, until Galileo or whoever it was proved it otherwise. Even though we accept the earth as round today and we can see the reality of it, it is not proven, there is just nothing to say against it.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you... but are you saying we have no proof that the Earth is round?

No, I'm pretty sure thats exactly what he said.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: cscpianoman
Think car accident survivors. There are several instances where people have lived that should not have. Those are the easy ones to point out because you see those ones everyday.

We have one out here that just happened recently. The car accident was really bad, there was not much left of the car. Two of the passengers managed to survive with minor cuts and bruises. The other two were severely injured, one with serious head trauma. The one with head trauma was in a coma for weeks. They did not expect much in the way of any recovery, actually they were suspecting paralysis. He is now out of the coma, in physical therapy, he is talking, he can read, they are expecting a very complet recovery. Miracle? Coincidence? Either way you look at it he should not have lived and if he did live he would have had some major brain trauma which would have prevented him from doing anything.

What would you consider a miracle then? Another I can think of is the forming of the American Nation. Study the history of the event and you'll see that there was a lot more at play then just mere chance. Everything was against the formation of the US. All the major governments of the day were monarchial/dictatorship/anything but democratic. The British army was the only army at the time. George Washington just happened to survive the crossing of the Potamic River by a fog bank that stirred up.

There are several from Mormon history that were witnessed not by a few, but hundreds of people. Zion's camp is very famous and those events were/are very well documented across several journals and points of view.

You are welcome to not accept these as miracles, that's fine. Proving miracles is just like proving the existence of God. It can't be done, because there is no testable null hypothesis. However, on that same note you can't prove there is no God for the very same reason. Likewise with miracles. The scientific world can't "prove" anything, they can only fail to disprove. Take any science course and for one aspect of science they will all agree. Failure to reject the null hypothesis does not mean something is true. For example, for the longest time people accepted the fact the world was flat. They had failed, at the time, to disprove the hypothesis. They had no evidence to suggest otherwise, until Galileo or whoever it was proved it otherwise. Even though we accept the earth as round today and we can see the reality of it, it is not proven, there is just nothing to say against it. Think of gravity, time, cells, quantum mechanics each one of these things had previously understood and accepted theories about that which subsequently fell by the wayside as further understanding came about. Einstein has already been proven incorrect about General Relativity because a higher law was found of the governance of light, time and gravity. If you can give me an experiment that you can reliably test to prove/disprove the existence of God, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or miracles you are a greater person than us all and worthy of several Nobel prizes. Good luck, mate!

I do believe in miracles. You can call me brainwashed, delusional or whatever, but for my life I feel that I am a better individual for believing in something greater. You can criticize, demean and make fun, but when it all comes down to it, I would rather take the approach that God created the earth and see His hand in all that happens then live my existence choosing to believe otherwise. I do not know how God created the earth, I do not know when Christ will come again, as a matter of fact I don't know a lot of things, but I plan to ultimately find out and if it takes forever and then some to do it, so be it.

one last time . . . MIRACLES like those in the bible . . . i.e. stopping the sun in the sky for hours; making the shadows go backward; parting the Red Sea; fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt; the 10 plagues on Egypt in Moses' day; the Mt Sinai "smoking"; the "burning bush"; resurrection of people dead [for days] . . . hundreds more . . .

and then what? they just stopped?

:roll:

:thumbsdown:

 

[kitkat22]

Oh boy, looks like I opened a can of worms!

First off, the world is round. I didn't say that we didn't have evidence that the world is round, what I did say is there is no evidence suggesting otherwise, therefore we conclude that the earth is round. However, if evidence dictates otherwise then the original hypothesis has to be thrown out and the new evidence included to adjust our thinking.

Basically, all I'm saying is the conversation is fruitless and will not lead to anything. You can say proof this or proof that, but ultimately, and the scientific community will agree, there is no way to prove it. I don't care how many articles you cite or your sources there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God, miracles or the truthfulness of the Bible or Book of Mormon. Saying that "large" miracles haven't happened does not mean that they will not happen in the future.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: cscpianoman
First off, the world is round. I didn't say that we didn't have evidence that the world is round, what I did say is there is no evidence suggesting otherwise, therefore we conclude that the earth is round. However, if evidence dictates otherwise then the original hypothesis has to be thrown out and the new evidence included to adjust our thinking.

Um, I don't think you get exactly how it works. We concluded that it was flat when we had no evidence suggesting otherwise, and now that we have evidence that it IS, in fact, round, we conclude that it is.

 

[ruffilb]

How absurd.

 

[Saulbadguy]

Mormonism has got to be the stupidest religion ever. They are very nice people, but they have got to be pretty fvcking stupid and gullible to believe any of it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: cscpianoman
Oh boy, looks like I opened a can of worms!

First off, the world is round. I didn't say that we didn't have evidence that the world is round, what I did say is there is no evidence suggesting otherwise, therefore we conclude that the earth is round. However, if evidence dictates otherwise then the original hypothesis has to be thrown out and the new evidence included to adjust our thinking.

Basically, all I'm saying is the conversation is fruitless and will not lead to anything. You can say proof this or proof that, but ultimately, and the scientific community will agree, there is no way to prove it. I don't care how many articles you cite or your sources there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God, miracles or the truthfulness of the Bible or Book of Mormon. Saying that "large" miracles haven't happened does not mean that they will not happen in the future.

i'm saying that there is NO EVIDENCE "large" miracles haven't happened in the past and that does not mean ANYthing about the future . . . most 'belief' is just wishful thinking based on supersitionm and fear of death.

 

[PatboyX]

its hard when you are raised in a religion that you disagree with. i think mormons who are no longer with the church feel this in a big way because of the tight-knit community that is pretty much required for mormons. there is a big emphasis on group counsel. so you cant just not go to services anymore. tough getting out, so to speak.
so i can sort of understand the idea of plastering things all over to spread your message against.

 

[DigitalX]

All religious are fiction, they make me sleep real fast...when i tried to understand them.

Some stories are funny as ....

 

[plaidfro]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
Mormonism has got to be the stupidest religion ever. They are very nice people, but they have got to be pretty fvcking stupid and gullible to believe any of it.

I guess to be your friend, one is "required" to believe everything that you believe and how you believe it...

 

[Ronin]

Originally posted by: Saulbadguy
Saulbadguy has got to be the stupidest ATOTer ever. He isn't very nice people, and you have got to be pretty fvcking stupid and gullible to believe anything he says.

Edited for truth

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: cscpianoman
First off, the world is round. I didn't say that we didn't have evidence that the world is round, what I did say is there is no evidence suggesting otherwise, therefore we conclude that the earth is round. However, if evidence dictates otherwise then the original hypothesis has to be thrown out and the new evidence included to adjust our thinking.

Um, I don't think you get exactly how it works. We concluded that it was flat when we had no evidence suggesting otherwise, and now that we have evidence that it IS, in fact, round, we conclude that it is.

Actually, in the Bible it talks about the earth being round. Trying looking in the book of Isaiah chapter 40 (I'll leave out the verse so people can read the whole chapter). Let's see, that was about 700 B.C. Matter of fact, prior to that time, many other civilization had already concluded that the earth was in fact round and already knew exactly how large it was. And you can't say the Bible was altered once this was discovered, even if you do believe Galileo was the first to discover this because the KJV was translated at the same time that Galileo was making his discoveries.

Therefore, I'm not really sure who concluded it was flat. Matter of fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Galileo's finding had to do with determing that the Earth rotated, had an orbit, and was not the center of the solar system or the universe.

 

[engineereeyore]

Being Mormon, I will say only this. As a Mormon, I believe in the following things (plus others, but we'll look at these for now)

1.) That God is my father and love me very much,
2.) That Jesus is my brother and died for me so that I could live again with him,
3.) That my family here on Earth can and will be my family after this life, and
4.) That I will live again after this life on Earth.

Now personally, I like these ideas. I see nothing wrong with science or scientific belief, but it provides no hope in an after life. I have no problems with other religions, but all other couples that I know of are married till death do they part, and not for all eternity. If this makes me an idiot in your eyes, so be it. If I'm wrong, then I've lived my life believing in something that has brought me great hope and comfort, and I'll never know I was wrong cause I'll just be dead. If I'm right, then I've properly prepared myself for the events that are to come.

So think of me and other Mormons as you will, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and always believe in him.