The Big 3 Failed. UAW is a joke.

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: chucky2

My BA is in IT. My AAS is in IT. I put myself through 4 years of nightschool working an almost minimum wage job so I could get that BA - so don't sit here and try to lecture me on value of professors or some other such BS.

You've never worked on a assembly line? You've never seen what those super duper smart BA and up having Management folks do in those same plants? You've never busted your @ss day in and day out?

You sound to me like some little know it all Mommy and Daddy sent their kid to college, where he got indoctrinated by his super duper smart professors - who are all protected by tenure, all the while doing basically nothing, go figure - on why Unions are so bad for our nation.

You essentially have, zero, clue of what you talk about. None. Zilch. Nada.

Answer me this oh uber smart almighty PhD educated person: When you've got rid of all the manufacturing in this country (why pay minimum wage here, when you can send it over to Mexico/oversea's for so much less!), got rid of all the textiles industry (whoops!! sorry about that one, that's already gone...for pennies on those tax dollars), got rid of all infinitely important PhD's (why, we can use "capitalism" with them too! Importing PhD's from other countries, who'll work for far less, sounds outstanding to me!), got rid of all engineers ("capitalism" again! Why pay a US engineer when I can get as good or better from India???), got rid of all our Dr.'s (wait! That's already happening...good mental reminder, I need to make an appt. with Dr. Babu so I can get my knee checked out), got rid of everything possible that can be done by anyone cheaper.....

...tell me, oh wonderous smart guy: Just WhoTF, from this country, is going to have a job here???? You know, a job where you can actually support a family of 4 on? Oh, OK, well, a job where your wife and you must both work if you want to be above the poverty line?

Why do you want to stop at manual labor workers as where "capitalism" must be used? I say, if you want to do that (and F some guy busting his @ss making $60k a year ((and that's what they bring home, around $60k/yr, providing no OT))), lets go all the way!!! Yippie!!!

Lets do it for every job in this country!!!! Dr.'s, PhD's, Corp. Exec's, teachers, labor workers, service workers, accountants, lawyers, etc. That way, we can live in your utopia where "capitalism" has run its course. Where each and every job is performed by the absolute lowest bidder....god, that sounds so perfect!!!

Tell you what, since you're so brave enough to want to F little guys: March right into work on Monday, tell your boss this: Boss, I want to compete with the absolute lowest wage person you can scrape up to perform my job tasks. I'll help you find him/her, they'll most likely be foreign, but, that's OK!!! We need to have the absolute lowest bidder doing my job, because, that's Capitalism!!! And only the lowest bidder should be doing my job!!! Please, either pay me far less money and benefits than I'm making right now, or, fire me and hire someone who will!!!

Let us know how that works out. Idoicy...

Chuck

Typical shortsighted response from someone that attaches too much emotion and pride into their job. Look at the big picture, FORGET your job or my job.

Micro-economics 101, let me give you some simple Competitive Advantage concepts:
Country A can make pizzas for $10 each, and hamburgers for $5 each.
Country B can make pizzas for $5 each, and hamburgers for $10 each.

It is beneficial for Country A to make their own hamburger, but buy pizzas from Country B.
It is also beneficial for Country B to make their pizza, but buy hamburgers from Country A.

Sure, there will be some pizza jobs lost in Country A, and some hamburger jobs lost in Country B. But in the broad economic picture, it is better for the two countries buy each others' goods.

Right now, other countries can manufacture goods cheaper, and we buy it. Because manufacturing require lots of unskilled labor, and unskilled labor is very expensive (relatively) in the USA.

The only reason Japanese carmakers built plants in the USA as oppose to Mexico is because they are afraid of political backlash, not because they think quality of workers are much better here. In fact, all the Mexicans I've met work much harder in manual labor jobs than the typical American, who takes things for granted. They think they all deserve making a comfortable wage because they live in America. Half of the world can't even feed themselves and will be glad to do your job for $1/day. We are spoiled.

Who knows, twenty years down the line, when other countries catches up, they may be offering skilled labor (such as engineering) for a cheaper rate while providing comparable quality. If so, then we should also buy those services from them.

I am fully aware of my skills may one day be offered by a foreign worker for cheaper. From a personal perspective, no, I do not want to be replaced as I need to eat. But personal feelings aside, it is best for a country to acquire goods/services from another country where it can be produced for cheaper. If I happen to be caught in this drift, then I will try to adapt my skills to produce goods or services in industries where America has a competitive advantage.

Again, take off your "average-Joe-trying-to-make-a-living" hat, and think, and think about the big picture. If losing jobs in a certain industry will benefit the overall economy, so be it.

It's not about fucking the little guys, it just happens that the manufacturing jobs that requires lots of manual labor are always the first ones to be outsourced from a developed country to a developing country. Other industries jobs may also be outsourced later such as tech support or programming. When the time comes, our labor market will just have to adapt and start producing goods/services that other countries can't as efficiently produce.

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO
UAW is to blame. CEOs are to blame too. It isn't just one or the other folks, BOTH are at fault, so don't try and pin it on just one or the other.

I agree with this.

I agree that wages should be determined by the market, not the UAW.

I also agree that the upper management needs to change it's ways too.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04

Typical shortsighted response from someone that attaches too much emotion and pride into their job. Look at the big picture, FORGET your job or my job.

Micro-economics 101, let me give you some simple Competitive Advantage concepts:
Country A can make pizzas for $10 each, and hamburgers for $5 each.
Country B can make pizzas for $5 each, and hamburgers for $10 each.

It is beneficial for Country A to make their own hamburger, but buy pizzas from Country B.
It is also beneficial for Country B to make their pizza, but buy hamburgers from Country A.

Sure, there will be some pizza jobs lost in Country A, and some hamburger jobs lost in Country B. But in the broad economic picture, it is better for the two countries buy each others' goods.

Right now, other countries can manufacture goods cheaper, and we buy it. Because manufacturing require lots of unskilled labor, and unskilled labor is very expensive (relatively) in the USA.

The only reason Japanese carmakers built plants in the USA as oppose to Mexico is because they are afraid of political backlash, not because they think quality of workers are much better here. In fact, all the Mexicans I've met work much harder in manual labor jobs than the typical American, who takes things for granted. They think they all deserve making a comfortable wage because they live in America. Half of the world can't even feed themselves and will be glad to do your job for $1/day. We are spoiled.

Who knows, twenty years down the line, when other countries catches up, they may be offering skilled labor (such as engineering) for a cheaper rate while providing comparable quality. If so, then we should also buy those services from them.

I am fully aware of my skills may one day be offered by a foreign worker for cheaper. From a personal perspective, no, I do not want to be replaced as I need to eat. But personal feelings aside, it is best for a country to acquire goods/services from another country where it can be produced for cheaper. If I happen to be caught in this drift, then I will try to adapt my skills to produce goods or services in industries where America has a competitive advantage.

Again, take off your "average-Joe-trying-to-make-a-living" hat, and think, and think about the big picture. If losing jobs in a certain industry will benefit the overall economy, so be it.

It's not about fucking the little guys, it just happens that the manufacturing jobs that requires lots of manual labor are always the first ones to be outsourced from a developed country to a developing country. Other industries jobs may also be outsourced later such as tech support or programming. When the time comes, our labor market will just have to adapt and start producing goods/services that other countries can't as efficiently produce.

First, I'm Management at a multi-$B Corp...not at all related to the auto industry. The Big 3 could entirely collapse, and I'm in one of the industries probably best suited to ride it out.

Second:

I realize what your saying, and in theory it all adds up.

Here's what those little theories fail to note: At the end of the day, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years down the road....if we keep following this trend: US Citizens, on the whole, will have gone from having a high standard of living, to a lower one.

Period.

And the reason for that is people like yourselves, running to embrace "Capitalism". Get this through your head: Unless you want you, or your kids, to be working for peanuts someday (because that's exactly what the Corp.'s will push for, as it's for "the shareholder" or "the Corp." or "overall health of our industry"...all but the people who work there), then you better decide if you want what you're advocating, or, some kind of protection from someone.

That someone can either be the Management at these Corp.'s, which, being Management, is out for anyone other than their workers - because those workers always cost too much.

Or it can be the Government...but Politicians are bought by the highest bidder, and guess what? Corp.'s have $Billions, we don't.

Or it can, gasp, maybe be a labor Union that has your - the average slob worker (Hint: That's you!!!) - welfare as its prime existance.

I can see you want Management at these Corp's to decide for the welfare of their workers...and that's where the utopia you dream about meets Reality: And reality is what I just proposed to you on how Management will not be happy until they've got the cheapest SOB doing those jobs they can possibly find.

You decide: Good jobs here, that are in the 40% of us that pay the taxes to finance social services in the US, that can support a family in a non-poverty lifestyle, Or....sh1t jobs here that pay subsistence wages, because that's what we'll be able to match up against the illegal/oversea's worker we'll be "competing" against.

I think we have your decision...so on that note: Let us know Monday night how that conversation with your boss goes...I for one am very eager to hear about i! :thumbsup:

Chuck

 

[Bignate603]

I wouldn't have as big of an issue with outsourcing if they were giving the employees in other countries comparable benefits. Taking manufacturing to a place where they don't have to give any sort of health benefits or retirement is cheaper, but is a horrible way to treat people. If we expect a certain standard being the minimum of what's livable (some sort of medical coverage, either a retirement plan or getting paid enough to be able to save, a roof overhead, etc) we should expect that the people making the things we use to have that level of living. Otherwise we shouldn't expect that standard for ourselves.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04

The only reason Japanese carmakers built plants in the USA as oppose to Mexico is because they are afraid of political backlash, not because they think quality of workers are much better here. In fact, all the Mexicans I've met work much harder in manual labor jobs than the typical American, who takes things for granted. They think they all deserve making a comfortable wage because they live in America. Half of the world can't even feed themselves and will be glad to do your job for $1/day. We are spoiled.

American car companies produce in Mexico. VW produces in Mexico. Where's the backlash? It is a business decision. Toyota is the poster child manufacturing companies because of its very high standards. If you have any experience with any manufacturing at all you'll know about it. They championed the six sigma movement and it requires quite a bit out of its assembly line workers. Each is in charge of their area and is supposed to be checking everything that they see on the vehicle for anything that doesn't match what its supposed to. Management doesn't make the call to shut down the line, the lowly assembly workers do. Each station has a button to shut it down. When something does go wrong they're expected to help sort it all out. They don't want stupid people on the line, it will foul up their process.

You're wrong about them not caring about the skills of their employees.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: chucky2

First, I'm Management at a multi-$B Corp...not at all related to the auto industry. The Big 3 could entirely collapse, and I'm in one of the industries probably best suited to ride it out.

Second:

I realize what your saying, and in theory it all adds up.

Here's what those little theories fail to note: At the end of the day, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years down the road....if we keep following this trend: US Citizens, on the whole, will have gone from having a high standard of living, to a lower one.

Period.

And the reason for that is people like yourselves, running to embrace "Capitalism". Get this through your head: Unless you want you, or your kids, to be working for peanuts someday (because that's exactly what the Corp.'s will push for, as it's for "the shareholder" or "the Corp." or "overall health of our industry"...all but the people who work there), then you better decide if you want what you're advocating, or, some kind of protection from someone.

That someone can either be the Management at these Corp.'s, which, being Management, is out for anyone other than their workers - because those workers always cost too much.

Or it can be the Government...but Politicians are bought by the highest bidder, and guess what? Corp.'s have $Billions, we don't.

Or it can, gasp, maybe be a labor Union that has your - the average slob worker (Hint: That's you!!!) - welfare as its prime existance.

I can see you want Management at these Corp's to decide for the welfare of their workers...and that's where the utopia you dream about meets Reality: And reality is what I just proposed to you on how Management will not be happy until they've got the cheapest SOB doing those jobs they can possibly find.

You decide: Good jobs here, that are in the 40% of us that pay the taxes to finance social services in the US, that can support a family in a non-poverty lifestyle, Or....sh1t jobs here that pay subsistence wages, because that's what we'll be able to match up against the illegal/oversea's worker we'll be "competing" against.

I think we have your decision...so on that note: Let us know Monday night how that conversation with your boss goes...I for one am very eager to hear about i! :thumbsup:

Chuck

This is where you and I differ in philosophy. I see USA moving from a manufacturing based economy to an intellectual/information driven economy. As we go through this transition, there will be casualties in the manufacturing industry, but it is a necessary evil.

This is already evident in the amount of education that the labor force has today versus 50 years ago. Thirty percent of the overall labor force have a Bachelor's today versus 5 percent 50 years ago. As we move towards an economy that produces intellectual properties (designing cars instead of producing them), more and more education is required from the labor force. Unfortunately, in this transition, those that cannot adapt to the higher job qualifications will lose out.

Other countries can already do our manufacturing jobs at a cheaper rate, thus we have to move on to produce goods/services that we have a competitive advantage. Producing information/intellectual property is only a natural progression because USA already has world's best higher-education infrastructure. We have the best universities and attract top minds from the world, which is a critical foundation to an information driven economy.

Jobs (especially in manufacturing) will be lost initially during this labor force transition. However, in the long term, jobs will be gained in other areas (such as research and design) as the labor force gratify towards jobs that require higher education. Our labor force have to constantly adapt to foreign competitors in order to remain competitive in the world economy.

It is naive to think that our quality of life will stay the same if our labor force don't adapt to foreign competition. Protectionism is not a solution, but rather a band-aid.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: Bignate603

Originally posted by: Imdmn04

The only reason Japanese carmakers built plants in the USA as oppose to Mexico is because they are afraid of political backlash, not because they think quality of workers are much better here. In fact, all the Mexicans I've met work much harder in manual labor jobs than the typical American, who takes things for granted. They think they all deserve making a comfortable wage because they live in America. Half of the world can't even feed themselves and will be glad to do your job for $1/day. We are spoiled.

American car companies produce in Mexico. VW produces in Mexico. Where's the backlash? It is a business decision. Toyota is the poster child manufacturing companies because of its very high standards. If you have any experience with any manufacturing at all you'll know about it. They championed the six sigma movement and it requires quite a bit out of its assembly line workers. Each is in charge of their area and is supposed to be checking everything that they see on the vehicle for anything that doesn't match what its supposed to. Management doesn't make the call to shut down the line, the lowly assembly workers do. Each station has a button to shut it down. When something does go wrong they're expected to help sort it all out. They don't want stupid people on the line, it will foul up their process.

You're wrong about them not caring about the skills of their employees.

Toyota have plants in Mexico, Google it. There goes your theory.

Do you honestly believe a U.S. high school grad is any smarter than a Mexican high school grad? If so, then you are probably racist. If anything, primary and secondary education in the U.S. is falling behind many third-world countries.

Most jobs on the assembly line do not require an education beyond high school, so as long as the Quality Assurance of the manufacturer is standard across all plants, the quality shall be the same.

 

[chucky2]

And 20-50 years down the road, when nothing requiring manaul work is done here (or is made/done by illegal aliens), and the higher education jobs have moved oversea's - as they will absolutely do in your "capitalistic" view of the world - what will the US workforce do then?

I know...be unemployed.

Or, work for far less of a ration than we do now, thus, enjoying our far less 1st world lifestyle.

Hope you're excited your kids will not live 1st world lifestyles, but rather, 2nd/3rd world! Or, maybe as this occurs, the actual "1st world/2nd world/3rd world" views will change....we'll just be one big happy world of mediocrity. Outstanding.

Me, I'd rather we actually have a manufacturing base here in the US that can actually produce sh1t if/when the sh1t hits the fan (and, it eventually will, that is inevitable). One that maintains the middle class, is self supportive, doesn't require 12 years University to get a job, and is actually able to buy all the stuff that all the college boys/girls jobs support/design/whatever.

Call me crazy, but I think that's something worth holding on to, rather than throwing away forever so we can get a vehicle for $1500 cheaper.

Chuck

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: chucky2
And 20-50 years down the road, when nothing requiring manaul work is done here (or is made/done by illegal aliens), and the higher education jobs have moved oversea's - as they will absolutely do in your "capitalistic" view of the world - what will the US workforce do then?

I know...be unemployed.

Or, work for far less of a ration than we do now, thus, enjoying our far less 1st world lifestyle.

Hope you're excited your kids will not live 1st world lifestyles, but rather, 2nd/3rd world! Or, maybe as this occurs, the actual "1st world/2nd world/3rd world" views will change....we'll just be one big happy world of mediocrity. Outstanding.

Me, I'd rather we actually have a manufacturing base here in the US that can actually produce sh1t if/when the sh1t hits the fan (and, it eventually will, that is inevitable). One that maintains the middle class, is self supportive, doesn't require 12 years University to get a job, and is actually able to buy all the stuff that all the college boys/girls jobs support/design/whatever.

Call me crazy, but I think that's something worth holding on to, rather than throwing away forever so we can get a vehicle for $1500 cheaper.

Chuck

do you *really* think that's possible? the whole reason the standard of living increases is because people become more educated to get better jobs. instead of producing goods all day, people now produce IP, designs, etc.

the US economy is moving from a goods based one to a services based one. it's been like this for a while.

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: chucky2
And 20-50 years down the road, when nothing requiring manaul work is done here (or is made/done by illegal aliens), and the higher education jobs have moved oversea's - as they will absolutely do in your "capitalistic" view of the world - what will the US workforce do then?

I know...be unemployed.

Or, work for far less of a ration than we do now, thus, enjoying our far less 1st world lifestyle.

Hope you're excited your kids will not live 1st world lifestyles, but rather, 2nd/3rd world! Or, maybe as this occurs, the actual "1st world/2nd world/3rd world" views will change....we'll just be one big happy world of mediocrity. Outstanding.

Me, I'd rather we actually have a manufacturing base here in the US that can actually produce sh1t if/when the sh1t hits the fan (and, it eventually will, that is inevitable). One that maintains the middle class, is self supportive, doesn't require 12 years University to get a job, and is actually able to buy all the stuff that all the college boys/girls jobs support/design/whatever.

Call me crazy, but I think that's something worth holding on to, rather than throwing away forever so we can get a vehicle for $1500 cheaper.

Chuck

You have to evolve and adapt, otherwise you get weeded out. Darwinism says the fittest survive. Applied to socio-economics, "fitness" in the human society is the ability get a job and put food on the table.

If other countries started designing microprocessors, then we move to quantum computing. If other countries starts to gain competitive advantage in providing tech support, we move to design human-computer interaction based support. If other countries can launch satellites cheaper than we can, then we develop better ways to communicate.

The possibilities are endless in an intellectual/information driven economy. Life is what you make it, but sitting in complacency will only lead to obsolesce.

Whether you like to admit or not, what I've stated is already becoming true. No empire lasts forever, especially one's labor force that sits in a stalemate. It's like a lion sitting in the wild waiting for food to come to him as opposed to going out to hunt.

The change in quality-of-life will be most apparent for the non-skilled laborers. Because they are the ones that are too naive to adapt, it is not their fault because they do not know any better. But they will be hit the hardest. A legacy UAW worker will not find any other jobs that pays close to $75/hr (in wages/benefits) once they are laid off. The higher educated will be less vulnerable because their skills are more transferable across industries.

Do you want to equip your kids with the ability to learn new skills or do you want to tell them that they can sit on their ass and expect comfortable living by being complacent? The latter will not happen in the 21st century, America is still a world super power in terms of economics, but others are catching up fast.

So we better learn how to find new ways to eat or be eaten.

 

[Bignate603]

Not everyone is suitable for desk jobs, some people just aren't cut out for it. Should we just deport those people because they don't fit this 'new economy' that you're proposing?

 

[AMCRambler]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: chucky2
1.) Having a BA from a university, I can without a doubt say the average professor, relative to the average UAW worker, is vastly overpaid for their work. Rehashing the same material year over year, waxing on about BS, and getting TA's to do half your work is not work, not is it value.

2.) It's clear you've never actually been in a factory, so essentially you're completely talking out your @ss.

3.) I have worked on a modern UAW assembly line, so I actually have some F'ing clue what I'm talking about.

4.) I'm a Management employee in a multi-$Billion Corp., not a UAW worker. Whoops!

5.) I could find any number of offshore workers to do your job as good, or better, than you for 1/8th of the cost. Since you're so passionate about it, why don't you go suggest to your boss that they do that, since, you know, you're so willing for "capitalism" to run so free.

6.) You have no macro reality idea of what you're talking about. None.

Then end.

Chuck

you can say the prof gets overpaid all you want. the fact of the matter is though, that there are only so many people who can and will get PhD's to be a professor and learn very specific knowledge. on the other hand, you are quite replaceable as an assembly line worker.

edit: did it even occur to you that professors do research? they are advancing the state of the art, advancing what we know about the world around us. you let me know how many assembly line workers start coming up with solutions for three dimensional, time dependent fluid flow that satisfy the navier-stokes equations.

this isn't to put down any workers. it's simply supply and demand. the professor is more valuable because of his knowledge and the fact that there are simply not many of them. hence, the prof gets paid more, even if he does "less work."

this is reality, even if you don't like it.

Anyone can be a PhD, all they have to do is have the luxury of spending the time, and having the money, to do so. There are many millions in this country who don't have either luxury, let alone one of them. I supposed we should regulate these undesirables to working for minumum wage, which is the lowest legal wage we can unfortunately pay them here in this country (at least, the ones lucky enough to get jobs, after we offshore/illegal alien, everything else), even though it'll be 2-5x higher than what the slave workers "our" Corp. will employ unhindered (as many largely do now).

Next time we fight a world war, probably with China and/or Russia, let me know how good those PhD's are at getting their hands dirty and cranking out product to combat the Billion or two sized armies we'll be competing with. I'm sure I want to see how that goes.....

Chuck

By your logic Chucky, once someone becomes educated or goes to college, they can't work with their hands. I strongly disagree. There is a select few of spoiled rich kids in this world that were born with the silver spoon in their mouth. Who's parents had no difficulty paying for college, they didn't need loans, etc. But I think on a whole the rest of America had to bust there butts working minimum wage jobs, take out loans and go into hock to get there college education and make a decent living wage.
You may be better at manual labor because your job entails it. But I'm pretty good with my hands too because outside of work I am willing to get my hands dirty. You give me a Chilton or Haynes manual and tell me to replace an alternator on your car and I'll get it done. It may take me an hour or two longer than the dude that does it every day, but I'll get it done.
Do you honestly think once you get a PHd, a hand tool suddenly becomes an enigma to you? I mean shit, if that was the case, we would have lost WWII. We had HOUSEWIVES building airplanes and tanks. My grandmother was one of them. Do you think their lady like sensabilities were offended when asked to help defend our country when Americans were getting killed at Pearl Harbor? Shit no.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: AMCRambler

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: chucky2
1.) Having a BA from a university, I can without a doubt say the average professor, relative to the average UAW worker, is vastly overpaid for their work. Rehashing the same material year over year, waxing on about BS, and getting TA's to do half your work is not work, not is it value.

2.) It's clear you've never actually been in a factory, so essentially you're completely talking out your @ss.

3.) I have worked on a modern UAW assembly line, so I actually have some F'ing clue what I'm talking about.

4.) I'm a Management employee in a multi-$Billion Corp., not a UAW worker. Whoops!

5.) I could find any number of offshore workers to do your job as good, or better, than you for 1/8th of the cost. Since you're so passionate about it, why don't you go suggest to your boss that they do that, since, you know, you're so willing for "capitalism" to run so free.

6.) You have no macro reality idea of what you're talking about. None.

Then end.

Chuck

you can say the prof gets overpaid all you want. the fact of the matter is though, that there are only so many people who can and will get PhD's to be a professor and learn very specific knowledge. on the other hand, you are quite replaceable as an assembly line worker.

edit: did it even occur to you that professors do research? they are advancing the state of the art, advancing what we know about the world around us. you let me know how many assembly line workers start coming up with solutions for three dimensional, time dependent fluid flow that satisfy the navier-stokes equations.

this isn't to put down any workers. it's simply supply and demand. the professor is more valuable because of his knowledge and the fact that there are simply not many of them. hence, the prof gets paid more, even if he does "less work."

this is reality, even if you don't like it.

Anyone can be a PhD, all they have to do is have the luxury of spending the time, and having the money, to do so. There are many millions in this country who don't have either luxury, let alone one of them. I supposed we should regulate these undesirables to working for minumum wage, which is the lowest legal wage we can unfortunately pay them here in this country (at least, the ones lucky enough to get jobs, after we offshore/illegal alien, everything else), even though it'll be 2-5x higher than what the slave workers "our" Corp. will employ unhindered (as many largely do now).

Next time we fight a world war, probably with China and/or Russia, let me know how good those PhD's are at getting their hands dirty and cranking out product to combat the Billion or two sized armies we'll be competing with. I'm sure I want to see how that goes.....

Chuck

By your logic Chucky, once someone becomes educated or goes to college, they can't work with their hands. I strongly disagree. There is a select few of spoiled rich kids in this world that were born with the silver spoon in their mouth. Who's parents had no difficulty paying for college, they didn't need loans, etc. But I think on a whole the rest of America had to bust there butts working minimum wage jobs, take out loans and go into hock to get there college education and make a decent living wage.
You may be better at manual labor because your job entails it. But I'm pretty good with my hands too because outside of work I am willing to get my hands dirty. You give me a Chilton or Haynes manual and tell me to replace an alternator on your car and I'll get it done. It may take me an hour or two longer than the dude that does it every day, but I'll get it done.
Do you honestly think once you get a PHd, a hand tool suddenly becomes an enigma to you? I mean shit, if that was the case, we would have lost WWII. We had HOUSEWIVES building airplanes and tanks. My grandmother was one of them. Do you think their lady like sensabilities were offended when asked to help defend our country when Americans were getting killed at Pearl Harbor? Shit no.

You must have missed it where I told him I too worked an almost minimum wage job, put myself through 4 years of nightschool for my associates, and then did 2 years of college to get my BA. I've been there, done that.

My job doesn't, in any way, entail manual labor...maybe you missed that to. I do IT program/project management. I have however done manual labor, and on a UAW assembly line...so I actually have some clue what I'm talking about.

I'm the same as you btw...I like doing my own manual labor myself.

Do I think once someone gets a PhD, they can't do manual labor? No, and I never said that.

Do I think the act of doing manual labor is something that takes one getting used to? Absolutely.

You point out we had "HOUSEWIVES" building tanks and airplanes. You're right! And those same housewives had husbands that, by far and large, were....wait for it...manual labor workers!!! And, by far and large, those same housewives....wait for it...did manual labor at home themselves!!!

So when WWI and WWII hit, we had a population that knew manual labor, and could do it. Fenixgoon and Imdmn04 want us to get to the point where we don't have manual labor in this country anymore...that's all going to be oversea's. So, when the next big one happens - and, it will, it's only a matter of time...human nature doesn't change - and we have basically 0 manual laborers here....just who is going to be on those tank, airplane, jeep, boat/ship, etc. assembly lines? Where will those be built???? We surely won't have any factories then. So first, we'll have to build the factories. But, that takes time...and, you need, well, you know, people that know how to do that. Then once they're built, we'll need people to, you know, work day after day after hour after hour building them.

You think the PhD who's job it is to theorize on how cow methane adds to Global Warming is going to be able to jump right on that line, working in the 120 degree heat, getting the job done??? Let me clue you in: He (and certainly not She) won't. No F'ing way.

The people that work in these plants aren't burger flippers folks...there's a complete and total difference to being at a job (your local burger flipper who gets it wrong half the time) and working at a job (your local factory worker...who is expected, and by far and large does, get it perfect every time).

For a massive and gargantuan $800 markup a car....I think, all things considered, I'll stick with the UAW worker at today's rates and bennies.

Chuck

 

[AMCRambler]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: AMCRambler

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: chucky2
1.) Having a BA from a university, I can without a doubt say the average professor, relative to the average UAW worker, is vastly overpaid for their work. Rehashing the same material year over year, waxing on about BS, and getting TA's to do half your work is not work, not is it value.

2.) It's clear you've never actually been in a factory, so essentially you're completely talking out your @ss.

3.) I have worked on a modern UAW assembly line, so I actually have some F'ing clue what I'm talking about.

4.) I'm a Management employee in a multi-$Billion Corp., not a UAW worker. Whoops!

5.) I could find any number of offshore workers to do your job as good, or better, than you for 1/8th of the cost. Since you're so passionate about it, why don't you go suggest to your boss that they do that, since, you know, you're so willing for "capitalism" to run so free.

6.) You have no macro reality idea of what you're talking about. None.

Then end.

Chuck

you can say the prof gets overpaid all you want. the fact of the matter is though, that there are only so many people who can and will get PhD's to be a professor and learn very specific knowledge. on the other hand, you are quite replaceable as an assembly line worker.

edit: did it even occur to you that professors do research? they are advancing the state of the art, advancing what we know about the world around us. you let me know how many assembly line workers start coming up with solutions for three dimensional, time dependent fluid flow that satisfy the navier-stokes equations.

this isn't to put down any workers. it's simply supply and demand. the professor is more valuable because of his knowledge and the fact that there are simply not many of them. hence, the prof gets paid more, even if he does "less work."

this is reality, even if you don't like it.

Anyone can be a PhD, all they have to do is have the luxury of spending the time, and having the money, to do so. There are many millions in this country who don't have either luxury, let alone one of them. I supposed we should regulate these undesirables to working for minumum wage, which is the lowest legal wage we can unfortunately pay them here in this country (at least, the ones lucky enough to get jobs, after we offshore/illegal alien, everything else), even though it'll be 2-5x higher than what the slave workers "our" Corp. will employ unhindered (as many largely do now).

Next time we fight a world war, probably with China and/or Russia, let me know how good those PhD's are at getting their hands dirty and cranking out product to combat the Billion or two sized armies we'll be competing with. I'm sure I want to see how that goes.....

Chuck

By your logic Chucky, once someone becomes educated or goes to college, they can't work with their hands. I strongly disagree. There is a select few of spoiled rich kids in this world that were born with the silver spoon in their mouth. Who's parents had no difficulty paying for college, they didn't need loans, etc. But I think on a whole the rest of America had to bust there butts working minimum wage jobs, take out loans and go into hock to get there college education and make a decent living wage.
You may be better at manual labor because your job entails it. But I'm pretty good with my hands too because outside of work I am willing to get my hands dirty. You give me a Chilton or Haynes manual and tell me to replace an alternator on your car and I'll get it done. It may take me an hour or two longer than the dude that does it every day, but I'll get it done.
Do you honestly think once you get a PHd, a hand tool suddenly becomes an enigma to you? I mean shit, if that was the case, we would have lost WWII. We had HOUSEWIVES building airplanes and tanks. My grandmother was one of them. Do you think their lady like sensabilities were offended when asked to help defend our country when Americans were getting killed at Pearl Harbor? Shit no.

You must have missed it where I told him I too worked an almost minimum wage job, put myself through 4 years of nightschool for my associates, and then did 2 years of college to get my BA. I've been there, done that.

My job doesn't, in any way, entail manual labor...maybe you missed that to. I do IT program/project management. I have however done manual labor, and on a UAW assembly line...so I actually have some clue what I'm talking about.

I'm the same as you btw...I like doing my own manual labor myself.

Do I think once someone gets a PhD, they can't do manual labor? No, and I never said that.

Do I think the act of doing manual labor is something that takes one getting used to? Absolutely.

You point out we had "HOUSEWIVES" building tanks and airplanes. You're right! And those same housewives had husbands that, by far and large, were....wait for it...manual labor workers!!! And, by far and large, those same housewives....wait for it...did manual labor at home themselves!!!

So when WWI and WWII hit, we had a population that knew manual labor, and could do it. Fenixgoon and Imdmn04 want us to get to the point where we don't have manual labor in this country anymore...that's all going to be oversea's. So, when the next big one happens - and, it will, it's only a matter of time...human nature doesn't change - and we have basically 0 manual laborers here....just who is going to be on those tank, airplane, jeep, boat/ship, etc. assembly lines? Where will those be built???? We surely won't have any factories then. So first, we'll have to build the factories. But, that takes time...and, you need, well, you know, people that know how to do that. Then once they're built, we'll need people to, you know, work day after day after hour after hour building them.

You think the PhD who's job it is to theorize on how cow methane adds to Global Warming is going to be able to jump right on that line, working in the 120 degree heat, getting the job done??? Let me clue you in: He (and certainly not She) won't. No F'ing way.

The people that work in these plants aren't burger flippers folks...there's a complete and total difference to being at a job (your local burger flipper who gets it wrong half the time) and working at a job (your local factory worker...who is expected, and by far and large does, get it perfect every time).

For a massive and gargantuan $800 markup a car....I think, all things considered, I'll stick with the UAW worker at today's rates and bennies.

Chuck

We will never get to a society that does not require manual laborers. It's impossible. show me a country that it's happened in or explain how that's even possible. In order for a country to exist its infrastructure needs to be maintained. That's manual labor.

We may get to a point where we don't have factory workers in this country though. You seem to think that will be a bad thing. Your reasoning being that if we ever have to fight a world war, we won't have the plants and factories to do it. There's two things wrong with that argument. 1. Our military is using equipment that is more technologically advanced than any country in the world. You don't need an huge batallion of tanks or a huge squadron of aircraft when the same firepower is available in the form of one tank or aircraft or missile. 2. The second problem with your argument goes along with my first point. The modern battlefield has changed. The nuclear deterrent has done that. Countries that have nuclear weapons have no fear of having to fight a conventional war on their own soil now that they have their fingers poised over the big red button.

So what it really comes down to, is does America need an auto industry or manufacturing base? As long as we can still produce our weapons or at the very least stockpile them, then the answer is no. And as for cars, we can buy those from other countries. So GM and the UAW have lost that ace in their pocket that kept them from needing to stay competitive. All they have left is that their shutdowns will throw us into a depression or at the very least a serious depression.

Now I don't know how I feel about that. On the one hand I don't want to see families of Auto Workers suffer. And they will be the ones that suffer the most for this mess. On the other hand, how many times will we keep bailing out these companies? My friggin work days keep getting longer and longer because I'm forced to do more with less. My company is not getting bailed out. And yet these guys are living the sweet life with all their union protection and then when their company can't support it any more my tax dollars bail them out and the keep on going. I bet they all have nice 8 hour a day jobs with paid breaks and paid over time. Meanwhile I'm working nights and weekends on salary to get all the work my company throws at me done. THAT is what pisses me off.

 

[Knavish]

Originally posted by: Imdmn04

This is already evident in the amount of education that the labor force has today versus 50 years ago. Thirty percent of the overall labor force have a Bachelor's today versus 5 percent 50 years ago. As we move towards an economy that produces intellectual properties (designing cars instead of producing them), more and more education is required from the labor force. Unfortunately, in this transition, those that cannot adapt to the higher job qualifications will lose out.

I fundamentally agree with your argument: it's ridiculous to think that we can prop up the current American Car Industry. If we stabilize the Big3 for the short term (without making big union and management changes), it won't be very long until they're competing with even more imports from China and India and this happens all over again. The alternative is to have the US Government decree that all auto workers get paid a "high living wage" no matter how much the cars sell for and we become the Communist States of America. (I'm not trying to act like some 80s redneck yelling about Commies here, but it seems like a lot of auto workers really want this to happen.)

The *HUGE* danger: We desperately need more highly educated Americans to maintain our country's status as a 1st world country. Unfortunately, our country does not place great value on education. This is a social problem with no visible solution: since the average american doesn't place high value on education, their children aren't driven to do well in school or college. Society / culture encourages the brightest students to go into SERVICE jobs (law and medicine) that really just maintain the status quo instead of improving society (by creating new technology, IP, etc.) Our government barely funds scientific research, so there are few jobs for developing new technology. Corporations have almost entirely cut their research divisions (ever hear of Bell Labs) in favor of short term product development. etc etc etc.. I need to stop ranting

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: Bignate603
Not everyone is suitable for desk jobs, some people just aren't cut out for it. Should we just deport those people because they don't fit this 'new economy' that you're proposing?

I don't buy that, that is just a cop out excuse.

I did not like schoolwork, but I went through it because I realize its importance to my life. Ninety percent of people that goes to college don't enjoy the academics, but they do it because they need to eat. You can't eat very nice meals theses days without a higher education.

Unless you are mentally retarded (declared by a mental institution), your brain is physically capable of doing college-level math, science, foreign languages, etc. It is a simple matter of desire, lots of young people see UAW workers making $75/hr in wage and benefits without a higher education, so they think to themselves they are set. Not going to happen in this day and age.

I've said it ten times before and I'll say it once again, the days of raising an entire family on one assembly line worker's wage is over. We are not a manufacturing-based economy anymore. If you look at all the newer UAW labor contracts, wages start around $14/hr. It is not enough to raise a family, but it is as high as the market is willing to pay these days.

 

[Bignate603]

You really think that every single person is capable of doing well at any academic thing as long as they just try harder? I'm sorry, but not everybody will make it and there's many people where it would be a waste of their time. Telling somebody who would make a good mechanic he should study chemistry isn't the most productive use of his time. Some people are good at school. Some are good with their hands. Some are good with people. All people are not the same. A diversified economy makes use of all the skills out there and is more efficient for it. A narrow economy breaks everything into groups of 'haves' and 'have nots' depending on if they just happen to be aligned with the desirable skills. It breeds inefficiency also because someone who has one set of skills may be forced into something they aren't as good at because they don't have a choice. The people that are lucky enough to have the right combination of genetics, upbringing, and chance will be able to succeed, others will struggle to get by in a job they aren't that good at.

Not everybody fits into your cookie cutter of what you think is a valuable human being. I'm sorry but somebody who has different skills isn't any less of a person. Apparently you feel if somebody doesn't match what you decided they can't possibly have tried hard enough.

I'm done with this thread. I'm tired of reading a few guys who have never done any real manual labor in their life debate how the US needs to kick out any job that doesn't fit what they see as respectable. I'm tired of arm chair economists think that they know better than everyone else because they happened to take an economy course when they were going to school on their parent's dollar. Above all I'm really tired of people saying that those jobs can just go away and it either won't have an effect on the economy or that it serves them right. If the jobs are lost that's a fact of life. People reveling in the fact that hundreds of thousands of people are going to be out of work sickens me. People on ATOT are taking joy in other people's misery. You may not like the company, you may not want the bailout, and you may not like their products but enjoying other people's pain is a terrible thing to do.

Enjoy your life. Just remember when your job gets outsourced that you're ok with it because it's the best for the economy. I'm sure that will keep you warm at night.