The Bible vs. The Koran on various issues of Man.

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<< Differences between Bibile and Koran (from a converted Islam) >>



That is a damn good page.



<< Muhammed was a commander in times of war. >>



That's a whole 'nother point. Muhammed was a man of war that founded a 'peaceful' religion. No one else sees a problem with this?

 

[CarpeDeo]

Link from a Christian apologetic perspective concerning Islam.

Please note that it is indeed a biased argument but <hopefully> based on accurate observations about Islam.

Link

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

I don't have a copy of the Quran at hand to look it up, but maybe 0sully can quote the part where it says you are not allowed to attack/kill nonbelievers except if they attack first.

Death penalty for believers who then choose to ditch the religion is quite sensible from the point of the religion: If you have believed in a god, but chose to ditch him/her/it, you basically choose AGAINST that religion. For Christians it would mean someone choosing for Satanism instead of Christianity (witchhunts showed how Christians used to deal with presumed Satanists). Christianity has basically set aside a lot of the rules from the Bible as being outdated, while the Islam often sees straying from the Quran as a sin. More and more Muslims and Islamic countries are becoming more liberal though, you aren't allowed more than one wife in Marocco anymore, not sure how it is in for example Egypt.

 

[yllus]

The Comparison grid between Christianity and Islamic doctrine is a pretty good one, though it sounds a little biased towards Christianity (eg. the bit about angels in Islam "without free will"). Almost everything, except for the base "this is the true religion not that one" kind of pronouncements are the same. Thanks CarpeDeo.

 

[Athlon4all]

The main idea of the Bible on Women is that Women submit to Man, that is the structure of order in Genesis before man sinned and that is what GOd intends today. Its not that the Men are in charge of the women and the women are worthless or lower than men, but that they are to sumbit to men. And also the bible says that men are to be the husband of one wife. To be quite honest, any interperations of the Bible by anyone who is not a believer in Jesus Christ as savior, and does not have the holy spirit in him/her will not be able to interperate the bible. And yes, I am a believer is Jesus Christ as Savior and I am going to heaven! I urge you all to repent of your evil ways and come to Christ! "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord!!!" But we just have to accept his perfect sacrifice on the cross, "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved!" Repent! For the Kingdom of heaven is at hand!!

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Spouting Christian rhetoric here only gets people pissed at you because nobody listens when it degrades down from a theological discussion to Christian rhetoric. Stick to the facts and don't get all "YOU'RE GOIN' T'HELL, FARMER JOE!" and everybody might just keep on listening to what you have to say.

*pulls the ripcord
"...there's a snake in my boot!"

nik (<-- Christian)

 

[Texmaster]

Cry all you want 0sully. The FACT is the majority of Islam being taught in Arab dominated countries focuses on the negative parts of the religion.

You can't change that fact that no matter how hard you try.

 

[yllus]

<< Cry all you want 0sully. The FACT is the majority of Islam being taught in Arab dominated countries focuses on the negative parts of the religion.

You can't change that fact that no matter how hard you try. >>

Who's trying to change facts (which facts are those?) or crying for that matter? If you made an attempt to read the length of this thread you'd see that I'm comparing the literal words of each book. Interpreting the Koran to justify killing people is a human failing. A damn lot of the illiterate idiots over there interpret it the wrong way. That does not make the religion evil. That is, as you seem to grasp things, a FACT.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Who's trying to change facts (which facts are those?) or crying for that matter?If you made an attempt to read the length of this thread you'd see that I'm comparing the literal words of each book. Interpreting the Koran to justify killing people is a human failing. A damn lot of the illiterate idiots over there interpret it the wrong way. That does not make the religion evil. That is, as you seem to grasp things, a FACT. >>



I dont CARE about what the book says. I only care what is TAUGHT. You can have a great book but if you only focus on the negative parts, its not going to reflect well on the relgion

 

[BigJohnKC]

0sully, I truly appreciate your bringing this up. I feel like I'm learning a bit more about islam than I knew before, which was mostly the biased rhetoric mentioned here.

A lot of people have a problem with the way Christianity addresses man/woman relationships. The way I heard it once is that from that verse mentioned, Matthew 19:3-6, is that the wife submits to the husband not because he is in charge of her, but out of love. Again, on to your point of contextual interpretation, the man should love her like Christ loved the church, who loved the church enough to die for the sins of all true believers. It's not a matter of who is the greater sex, or of lesser value of women, but a matter of a love so strong that the husband would die for his wife. I know, it doesn't explain a lot about equality, though.

As for you, Athlon4all, you spouted that rhetoric quite nicely, eh? Saying things in that manner make you come off as condescending and an overbearing jackass. If you want to share the gospel here, preaching down at people will get you nowhere. I've done it in the past and gotten yelled at, so I know the way it goes. I completely agree with your sentiment, but your tone makes it hard for the very smart atheists and agnostics on this board to take you seriously.

 

[yllus]

<< To be quite honest, any interperations of the Bible by anyone who is not a believer in Jesus Christ as savior, and does not have the holy spirit in him/her will not be able to interperate the bible. >>

I thought exactly the same. I knew there would be Bible resources online but not only do I not know where to look for certain passages, my way of reading the context of what's written will be different than a Christian's.


<< 0sully, I truly appreciate your bringing this up. I feel like I'm learning a bit more about islam than I knew before, which was mostly the biased rhetoric mentioned here. >>

Thank you, BigJohnKC! I'm now wondering if I can get a copy of the Koran on CD-ROM somewhere and make a project out of making a searchable Web index out of it, so people don't assume wildly from what they read in newspaper opinion pieces or take that "Jihad sayings and verses" page as truth. 600+ pages makes that a bit daunting to actually put into motion, though.


<< The way I heard it once is that from that verse mentioned, Matthew 19:3-6, is that the wife submits to the husband not because he is in charge of her, but out of love. >>

I think a lot to do with that supposed subjugation of women before men has to do with the ancient times in which each book was composed. You could say we know better than that now...but in that there's a lot of hypocrisy too. Knowing better or not, we're now taking the literal texts and changing them to what we find more palatable. Can we do the same to homosexuality, to marrying more than one (or in the case of the Koran, more than four!) woman, etc? In my mind you can either go word by word or not call yourself a follower of the religion at all.

 

[yllus]

Your words, Texmaster, in the other thread:


<< There is a great deal of reason to be interested in passages like this in the Koran and in the very culture of Islam. >>

Then you follow with this statement, in the present thread:


<< I dont CARE about what the book says. I only care what is TAUGHT. You can have a great book but if you only focus on the negative parts, its not going to reflect well on the religion >>

If you are judging a religion itself, you are making no sense at all.

We have the literal words of the Bible. We have the literal words of the Koran. These are set in stone. They are fact. They're even similar. You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers, if just because humans are innately flawed. Which followers do you make the decision upon? Catholics? Protestants? Branch Dividians? I could easily pick the latter and throw up a website about it denouncing the entirety of Christianity based on that. It's a totally illogical judgement call when you start talking believers.

If you wants LOL FACTS LOL LOL, try reading the book and keep quiet about people "crying". You're the only one acting the fool in this thread.

 

[justint]

It's all about context as many of the posters in this thread have stated, but the context should go beyond literal readings of text. How a religion is taught, and how it is applied has a great deal to do with the socioeconomic and cultural situation at the time.
Unfortunately most peoples view of Islam and it's teachings are focused solely on the actions of fundamentalists and terrorists who have thier own version of Islam that gains more attention than the more general version accepted and believed by the majority of Muslims.

The Arab world and the Muslim world (two seperate things) currently is based in regions and countries considered to be developing. Much of the populations of these countries are poor, and opressed by governments who do not reperesent thier interests
and do not allow them to have a voice. Couple that with a lack of non-religious education and critical elements of a free society such as a thriving free press and you have a situation that is rife for opportunities for fundamentalist teachings that lean towards
extreme actions such as violence that is justified on shaky religious grounds. In those cases religion is one of the few ways in which people can express themselves and political views become intertwined with religion.

This has also been the pattern with Christianity until very very recently. Look at much of the history of Europe which was governed by a dogmatic interpretation of Christianity that encouraged such lovely things as the Crusades in which millions of Muslims,
Christians, and basically anyone else who had the misfortune of being in the way were slaughtered in the name of religion. The persecution and near extermination of the Jews in Europe, burnings of heretics, countless religious wars between Protestants
and Catholics, witch burnings, etc. etc. lovely stuff like that. During that period of time, the place to go if you wanted to be free of religious persecution and violence in the name of religion would most likely have been in the Muslim rather than the Christian world.

These sort of things are becoming increasingly rare in Western countries due to a radically changed culture which allows for greater personal and social freedom, greater opportunity for individuals and groups, and more education and reasoned debate. All
of these elements are lacking in areas where "fundamentalist violent" strains of Islam emerge. In the western world with it's increasingly secular nature we are spared the problems of religion intertwining with the political and economic frustrations of the population.
We have contexts outside of religion to express our grievances and to act upon them.

That said, I agree with Texmaster to the extent he says that those who teach this twisted brand of Islam are reprehensible. Taking any elements out of a religion be it from it's holy texts or its general teachings and using them in isolation to support a negative
or positive view on that religion is foolish at best and dangerous at worst. Many of the sites and qoutes I have seen critizing Islam by attempting to pick and choose "negative" elements fall into this trap and I would hope that most ATOT'rs who seem to be
smarter than the average bear would discount them on thier face.

I would like to point out that the vast majority of Muslims do not follow this type if Islam and have committed no crime against us even if they may hold different worldviews for a variety of reasons.

 

[BigJohnKC]

<< I think a lot to do with that supposed subjugation of women before men has to do with the ancient times in which each book was composed. You could say we know better than that now...but in that there's a lot of hypocrisy too. Knowing better or not, we're now taking the literal texts and changing them to what we find more palatable. Can we do the same to homosexuality, to marrying more than one (or in the case of the Koran, more than four!) woman, etc? In my mind you can either go word by word or not call yourself a follower of the religion at all. >>


No, you missed my point. What I was talking about is not taking a literal texts and twisting them into a modern day interpretation. BTW, I apologize, I copied down the wrong verse there, I meant to talk about Ephesians 5:22-25. Again, I bring back the context of the surrounding verses, you can read on in Ephesians, through verse 33:

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

As you can see, the Bible doesn't teach that men are greater than women, so it is not just a cultural thing that says "wives, submit to your husbands." Paul explicitly says that the two are joined in one flesh, that they will become one person before God.

From what you wrote in your original post, it seems the Koran says explicitly that men are better than women, but the Bible says they become one when they become man and wife.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Your words, Texmaster, in the other thread:


<< There is a great deal of reason to be interested in passages like this in the Koran and in the very culture of Islam. >>

Then you follow with this statement, in the present thread:


<< I dont CARE about what the book says. I only care what is TAUGHT. You can have a great book but if you only focus on the negative parts, its not going to reflect well on the religion >>

If you are judging a religion itself, you are making no sense at all. >>



Thats EXACTLY right.

The culture of today's Islam is Wahabism. Try looking it up. That is the main culture that Islam is floating around. It is the dominating form of Islam being taught in Arab dominated nations today.

Here is a definition of the word Culture you obviously missed: The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought

The Culture is not the book, it is how the book is taught. Nice try little buddy





<< We have the literal words of the Bible. We have the literal words of the Koran. These are set in stone. They are fact. They're even similar. >>



Really. Show me where Christians call non believers "infidels". Show me where the Bible mentions specific religions by name and then condemns them.




<< You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers, if just because humans are innately flawed. Which followers do you make the decision upon? Catholics? Protestants? Branch Dividians? I could easily pick the latter and throw up a website about it denouncing the entirety of Christianity based on that. It's a totally illogical judgement call when you start talking believers. >>



Are you kidding? Thats the whole point of relgion! The teaching of it to others. It doesn't matter what the book says if the people teaching it only focus on the negitive aspects.



<< If you wants LOL FACTS LOL LOL, try reading the book and keep quiet about people "crying". You're the only one acting the fool in this thread. >>



The fool is you little buddy. You don't want to deal with the REALITY of the Muslim countries and how Islam is being taught. You want to focus on how is could be taught, not the reality.

 

[yllus]

<< As you can see, the Bible doesn't teach that men are greater than women, so it is not just a cultural thing that says "wives, submit to your husbands." Paul explicitly says that the two are joined in one flesh, that they will become one person before God.

From what you wrote in your original post, it seems the Koran says explicitly that men are better than women, but the Bible says they become one when they become man and wife. >>

The paragraph I posted about gender equality is from the 4th chapter of the Koran. The chapter is entitled "Women". In that way, when I wrote out the quotes for this post, I supposed that chapter was THE source on a woman's role in Islamic society. I figured that people new to the religion who would peruse the Koran would see and stick to that as their guide. However there are other verses which mirror what you've written:

And all things We have created by pairs, that haply ye may reflect. (51-49). God has created every living being in equal parts - male and female - including mankind.

And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends of one another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. (9-71) Men and women are partners in protecting each other.

And their Lord hath heard them (and He saidth): Lo! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. (3-195) God will reward both men and women in the life after death.

You'll see from the reference numbers that these quotes are spread all over, but they talk about the equality of the pair. But to go literally from either book would, in my opinion, see woman lowered before man.

 

[Nitemare]

<<

<< Who's trying to change facts (which facts are those?) or crying for that matter?If you made an attempt to read the length of this thread you'd see that I'm comparing the literal words of each book. Interpreting the Koran to justify killing people is a human failing. A damn lot of the illiterate idiots over there interpret it the wrong way. That does not make the religion evil. That is, as you seem to grasp things, a FACT. >>



I dont CARE about what the book says. I only care what is TAUGHT. You can have a great book but if you only focus on the negative parts, its not going to reflect well on the relgion >>



And you know this how? Was it something you read or were you TAUGHT this?

 

[308nato]

<<

<<

<< Who's trying to change facts (which facts are those?) or crying for that matter?If you made an attempt to read the length of this thread you'd see that I'm comparing the literal words of each book. Interpreting the Koran to justify killing people is a human failing. A damn lot of the illiterate idiots over there interpret it the wrong way. That does not make the religion evil. That is, as you seem to grasp things, a FACT. >>



I dont CARE about what the book says. I only care what is TAUGHT. You can have a great book but if you only focus on the negative parts, its not going to reflect well on the relgion >>



And you know this how? Was it something you read or were you TAUGHT this? >>



Its called common sense which some of us have.

 

[Hammer]

Tex, you're making generalizations. Not every Muslim state is like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran. Don't forget Turkey is even a part of NATO. They are hardly hostile to us and have pledged troops to us on more than one occasion.

 

[Texmaster]

<< And you know this how? Was it something you read or were you TAUGHT this? >>



ROFLOL!!! Do you even know how to pick up a newspaper?

Are you caliming ignorance on the schools the Saudis have funded all over the Arab world that teach hatred towards Jews and Christians?

Please don't make me embarrass you on this.

 

[yllus]

<< The culture of today's Islam is Wahabism. Try looking it up. That is the main culture that Islam is floating around. It is the dominating form of Islam being taught in Arab dominated nations today. >>

Show ME that statistic. The majority of Muslims in my mind have always been of the moderate Sunni branch. But let's see what the Web has to say.

Iran: Religious Persuasion: Shi'a Muslim: 95%; Sunni Muslim: 4%; Other: 1%.

Pakistan: Religious Persuasion: Sunni Muslim: 87%; Shi'a Muslim: 20%; Hindu: 2%; Christian 1%.

Indonesia: Religious Persuasion: Muslim: 87% (does not mention sect). At the bottom of the page it mentions, "There is legal sexual equality, and women take an active part in public life." Not exactly the flag carrier of Wahabism, is it?


<< Here is a definition of the word Culture you obviously missed: The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought

The Culture is not the book, it is how the book is taught. Nice try little buddy >>

Yet again, I'm talking about the religion. I've said a dozen time the PEOPLE have major issues. The people are the culture, not the religion.


<< Really. Show me where Christians call non believers "infidels". Show me where the Bible mentions specific religions by name and then condemns them. >>

Show me where the Koran does that and I will honestly look up the context and tell you if it's true. Until you can do that, you have no point.


<< Are you kidding? Thats the whole point of religion! The teaching of it to others. It doesn't matter what the book says if the people teaching it only focus on the negitive aspects. >>


You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers.
You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers.
You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers.

You read the teachings and texts of the religion and decide about it based on that. What is so hard to grasp about this concept?



<< The fool is you little buddy. You don't want to deal with the REALITY of the Muslim countries and how Islam is being taught. You want to focus on how is could be taught, not the reality. >>

Uh, little buddy, I'm not a Muslim. I'm just educated about the religion. I see the reality a hell of a lot better than you do. The point of this thread is to show people that the teachings of Islam, based on its holy book, are not evil or twisted or whatever you'd like to sling at it. It's turning out very similar to the Bible.

 

[Texmaster]

<< Tex, you're making generalizations. Not every Muslim state is like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, or Iran. Don't forget Turkey is even a part of NATO. They are hardly hostile to us and have pledged troops to us on more than one occasion. >>



I dont think I'm generalizing when I say a majority of Arabs in the Arab dominated world support attacks on Judism and Chrstianity.

Turkey is only a small portion of the Arab world.

I'm using simple logic. From teleisivion to print, we all see anti-american anti-Israeli protests. We never see even a single pro-peace protest even by the Turks.

If the majority of Muslims are truely peaceful where are they? Where are the protests? Where are the voices. And if you are going to claim they are being pushed down, how do you know this?

 

[justint]

Texmaster

Turks are NOT ARABS. Neither are IRANIANS for that matter. I hate it when people screw that up it shows they really have no comprehension about the complexities of culture, religion, and ethnicity that exist in the world.


Tex, you need to do a little more in depth research and try and have a little more understanding about people before you start generalizing about them.

Sorry just pet peave there.

 

[dababus]

<< Turkey is only a small portion of the Arab world. >>




thats' the most ignorant statement i have ever seen.

turkey as a small portionn of arab world, who told you that.


i see tex, you probably haven't gone outside of Texas. lol

 

[Texmaster]

<< Show ME that statistic. The majority of Muslims in my mind have always been of the moderate Sunni branch. >>



Not a problem:

A PBS link that looked reasonably informative

Another link related to Chechnya

Who or What is a Wahhabi?

Interesting link explaining the origins of the movement

Easily done.




<< Yet again, I'm talking about the religion. I've said a dozen time the PEOPLE have major issues. The people are the culture, not the religion. >>



How can you measure a religion without looking at the people who practice it? That makes no sense.



<< Show me where the Koran does that and I will honestly look up the context and tell you if it's true. Until you can do that, you have no point. >>



HAHAHA no problem:

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9:5), fight with them, (Q. 8:65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that ?they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter? (Q.5: 34). ?As for the disbelievers?, it says that ?for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods? (Q. 22: 9). Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28). Quran asks the Muslims to ?strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9). The holy Prophet demanded his follower to ?strike off the heads of the disbelievers?; then after making a ?wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives? (Q. 47: 4). As for women the book of allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (Q. 4:34). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q. 66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (Q. 2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (Q. 4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the court (Q. 2:282).



<< You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers.
You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers.
You cannot make a judgement about a religion based on its followers. >>



wrong
wrong
wrong

A religion is nothing without followers. Looking at the followers is critical to understanding the culture of the religion.
Of course a culture can change but cuture and relgius texts do NOT coincide.



<< You read the teachings and texts of the religion and decide about it based on that. What is so hard to grasp about this concept? >>



I'm not having the problem you are.

A book cannot tell you what is important and what isn't. All religions are based in the interpretation of the documents. This goes to the HEART of the religious culture.



<< Uh, little buddy, I'm not a Muslim. >>





<< I never said you were and if you continue to claim it, I challenge you to quote me where I said it.
I'm just educated about the religion. I see the reality a hell of a lot better than you do. The point of this thread is to show people that the teachings of Islam, based on its holy book, are not evil or twisted or whatever you'd like to sling at it. It's turning out very similar to the Bible. >>



Yes yes I know. You have extremely high levels of smartness.

Once again, its the culture of the religion and the people that practice it that define it at any point in time.

Your philosophical viewpoint isn't based in the reality of today, merely an interpration of a book by yourself.