The Bible vs. The Koran on various issues of Man.

[yllus]

Preface

Because of another thread posted by Jimbo earlier today, I've been asking around a little to people of the Christian faith to see where exactly the Bible and Koran differ from each other. I haven't been able to get answers of any concreteness at all, so...

I'm not religious in the least, though I hold open a small window that there may be a great Maker out there. I do know my stuff about the religion I was brought up in, though. I thought I'd take this opportunity to dig up my English-translation Koran and see if anyone well-educated about the Bible could educate us with on the literal wording of a number of common, important issues. So representing the words of the Koran, here goes. This information has been picked out carefully, but it is by no means ALL the Koran says on any one subject.


Women

How many a man is to take: And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justic (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands posess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice. (4-83)

On serious disagreements between husband and wife: And if ye fear a breach between them twain (the man and wife), appoint an arbiter from his folk and an arbiter from her folk. If they desire amendment Allah will make them of one mind. (5-90)

Gender equality: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom *unreadable* fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. (5-89)

Lewdness: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah toward those who do evil in ignorance then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. These are they toward whom Allah relenteth. (4-86)


Islam vs. Other Religions

Other gods: Say: He is Allah, the One!

Allah the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him.

Disbelievers: Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship. Nor worship ye that which I worship;

And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (30-604)


Conclusion

Okay...I was going to post more than just two topics but you can see it tends to go on quite a bit. Would anyone well-read in the Bible, or at least just someone with a Bible near them as a source, be able to reply here with the actual words of the Bible on these two topics? I'd love to see people drop the personal interpretation garbage and tell us all just what each holy book has to say.

My own "interpretation" and other commentary to follow in a bit.

 

[Adul]

sits back with popcorn and soda.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

<< sits back with popcorn and soda.

>>

*plops down on the couch next to Adul with a couple decks of cards and some nachos

 

[Martin]

<< sits back with popcorn and soda.

>>



dont get too close, you might get a burn from all the flames that are sure to ensue.

 

[yllus]

Only total maroons would flame over this post - I didn't write up two pages to get this locked! Since I've never read the Bible or have access to it, or perhaps I could be construed as biased towards Islam, I'd like to have someone educated about the Bible post a response on these two exact topics - the literal words of the book. You can't tell me that's trying to make trouble.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

0sully, you now have easy access.

At the bottom there is a search box. And actually, if anyone knows of something similar for the Koran, I'd appreciate if they posted it.

 

[chiwawa626]

Pepsi vs. Coke

 

[goob2k]

Women

How many a man is to take: Monogamy
Matthew 19:3-6
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,'
5 and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

On serious disagreements between husband and wife: Not sure

Gender equality:
Ephesians 5:22-25
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Lewdness:Read just about any of Paul's letters...

Christianity vs. Other Religions

Other gods: Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

Disbelievers: Step 1:
Matthew 20:19-20
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

If that fails:
Mark 6:11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.

Am I wrong in stoking the flames of this flamewar that's about to erupt?

 

[Wallydraigle]

How long till this thing reaches critical mass?

 

[yllus]

goob2k, thank you.

It sounds like gender equality in the two holy books is saying the same thing: Man above woman. Monogamy, the Bible leaves no room for deviation from it, where the Koran has a range from 1-4. I'm not even ready to handle one let alone four! :Q

Other gods...exclusivity 0wnz both religions. Disbelievers of Christianity...I don't understand the duality of those two statements. I assume it means try your damndest, but leave in peace if you fail? The Koran says just about the same though I was too lazy to write up all of that once.

Funny how when you get the literal words written out the two books sound quite similar.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<< The Koran says just about the same though I was too lazy to write up all of that once. >>



Sure about that?

 

[goob2k]

<< Disbelievers of Christianity...I don't understand the duality of those two statements. I assume it means try your damndest, but leave in peace if you fail? >>


Yeah, pretty much. In effect, it's saying if they won't listen to you, leave peacefully and find someone who will listen.

 

[Tripleshot]

>>>Narrated Ikrima: The statement of Allah?s Apostle, " Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."<<<

Hmmmm. Makes missionary work a wee bit difficult, me thinks.

 

[PsychoAndy]

<<

<< The Koran says just about the same though I was too lazy to write up all of that once. >>



Sure about that? >>


Hmmm. Let's have a conversation about issues of man, and then throw in random quotings about Jihad from a CHRISTIAN source, of all places, which is almost irrelevant to the topic at hand with the exception of these "quotes" being from the Koran...

 

[yllus]

Heya Gonad. Okay, want me to dissect and see where that page of yours is saying things correctly and where it's not? I'll start with what you wrote in the other thread:


<< Sura 17:33 - You shall not kill any man whom Allah has forbidden you to kill, except for a just cause. (Repeated in Sura 25.67) >>

Actually written in front of my eyes as "And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! He will be helped."

Any clue what the structure of that paragraph in the book is? I didn't think so. The entire page leading up to that one is talking about the mercy Allah should show on one's parents, as "they did care for me when I was little!" It goes on to admonish people against slaying their own children, against adultery, to your sentence: Against slaying one's parents for their fortune. Let him not commit excess in slaying.

Busted.

Edit: Oops, forgot to address the rest of that website. Let's take a sampling...

Sura 9:5 - When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them.

Sura 9:12 - But if, after coming to terms with you, they break their oaths and revile your faith, make war on the leaders of unbelief.

Sura 9:14 - Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the spirits of the faithful.

Sura 9 is entitled Tawbah: Repentence. The page had paragraph 5 in there, let's take a look at paragraph 4:

Sura 9:4 - Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported nothing against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Well isn't that odd. The whole damn sura (chapter) is talking about an centuries-old war between the Muslims during the life of Prophet Muhammed and the "idolators". It's talking history - NOT what to follow. That entire chapter (9) should be thrown out when it comes to rules on how to govern one's life.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<<

<<

<< The Koran says just about the same though I was too lazy to write up all of that once. >>



Sure about that? >>


Hmmm. Let's have a conversation about issues of man, and then throw in random quotings about Jihad from a CHRISTIAN source, of all places, which is almost irrelevant to the topic at hand with the exception of these "quotes" being from the Koran...

>>



If treatement of disbelievers was irrelevant to this topic maybe it should have been left out of the initial post. I know it's from a Christian source, and rebuttals are welcome, if there are any.

Oh no, looks like 0sully got one. So it's OK to kill people as long as it's not too many and not your parents, unless it's for a just cause, then it doesn't matter what Allah says. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[yllus]

<< Oh no, looks like 0sully got one. So it's OK to kill people as long as it's not too many and not your parents, unless it's for a just cause, then it doesn't matter what Allah says. Thanks for clearing that up. >>

Nice try.

What I wrote on the topic of Disbelievers is what the Koran says is to be followed. It never says it's okay to kill people as a rule to live by anywhere. That's strictly myth, ignorance and your own bias talking. You really think I couldn't pick out a phrase from the Bible that would grant me permission to kill in the same way as the web page you showed did? Give me five minutes and that Bible search engine (neat).

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

<< You really think I couldn't pick out a phrase from the Bible that would grant me permission to kill in the same way as the web page you showed did? Give me five minutes and that Bible search engine (neat). >>



That's what I posted it for.

 

[yllus]

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Numbers 31:17

Forget just disbelievers! I have been ordered by God to kill EVERY male child and woman for hath something! Woo! Well you and I know this is grossly out of context, but that's exactly what the page you linked to is doing. Taking things grossly out of how they were meant to be read and using them to show how evil the teaching Islam is.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Hey, I'll give you one point for that, but it's Old Testament. Double points for anything from the New Testament.

 

[Ameesh]

thanks for doing this sully, even though i dont believe in either i think some people on this board need too look at the sources a little more carefully.

 

[yllus]

<< thanks for doing this sully, even though i dont believe in either i think some people on this board need too look at the sources a little more carefully. >>

*nod* Same here. I threw out all organized religion as part of my belief system a long time ago.

I wanted to see exactly how much the teachings of the two holy books differed; thus far it seems like not too far. How the two books are interpreted has no bearing on the actual religions, that you could call a fault of man. The literal words from each on at least these two topics we've covered are the same. I'd dearly love to hear how one religion can be evil and one cannot.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Interpretation is the ONLY way to defend Islam. You did it yourself with the parent-killing verse and the 'these are here but don't really say this is how you should live your life' verses. If you look at literal words, the Koran is filled with many more calls for violence than the Bible. And most of what isin the bible is in the Old Testament, which gets superceded by Jesus's teachings in the New Testament. In fact, I searched for the word 'kill' in the New Testament, and the only time it is even used is in past tense recounting an event, in reference to killing an animal, not killing at all, or the killing of Jesus, until Revelations, where it talks mostly of people being killed by 'the beast.'

 

[Josephus]

This is a very complex topic, two religions based substantially on similar texts with different theologies and practices... There is a great deal of grist for the mill it appears. I found a couple of sites with interesting information and negation of misinformation....


Myths of Islam discussed here

Differences between Bibile and Koran (from a converted Islam)

I don't want to get into flames and disparage anyones relaionship with God, understanding the basis of differences in belief and respecting the same is a tennant of my faith.

"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. (RO 14:13 )"

 

[yllus]

<< Interpretation is the ONLY way to defend Islam. You did it yourself with the parent-killing verse and the 'these are here but don't really say this is how you should live your life' verses. >>

That wasn't interpretation. That was the web page you linked to making "You shall not kill any man whom Allah has forbidden you to kill, except for a just cause" sound like a slimier version of a Commandment, where in fact it's talking about cautioning against matricide/fratricide in order to gain riches. Most of that chapter governs how the estate of one's parents should be divided up in Islamic law. What you call interpretation is just the correct context.


<< If you look at literal words, the Koran is filled with many more calls for violence than the Bible. >>

Muhammed was a commander in times of war. His stories, experiences and life in general are contained in the Koran. It's not actually calling for violence, but it may or may not recount more violence than the Bible - I don't know, I haven't read both. Telling history is far from a calls to arms.


<< And most of what is in the bible is in the Old Testament, which gets superceded by Jesus's teachings in the New Testament. >>

To a counterpart of that web page you linked would that matter? I can still translate and retranslate anything I want out of what's written, anywhere. I just made a quick job of it for now.