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The banking industry knew what they were doing and knew what it would lead to.. so.. why did they do it? why do we allow

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,261
68
86
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Where in that article did it say that Wells forced them into bankruptcy?
Bolded for you
Where does it mention WFC did this?
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,293
10,081
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Where in that article did it say that Wells forced them into bankruptcy?
Bolded for you
Where does it mention WFC did this?
Nowhere obviously, that article doesn't mention exactly what credit card processor they are using. Dave is reading things that aren't there...as usual.

They only mentioned WFC since it is their largest creditor not that they were responsible for credit card situation.

More on the story, see my bolded part.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...eOnlSyUK0s&refer=news#

April 11 (Bloomberg) -- Frontier Airlines Holdings Inc., the U.S. discount carrier that serves 70 destinations from Denver, filed for bankruptcy, becoming the fourth U.S. airline to seek court protection in less than a month.

Frontier took the step after its credit-card processor, First Data Corp., began withholding proceeds from ticket sales, the Denver-based carrier said in a statement today. Frontier pledged to continue flying and keep paying workers while it seeks additional financing.

``We filed for very different reasons than those of other recent carriers,'' Frontier Chief Executive Officer Sean Menke said in the statement. ``We believe that we currently have adequate cash on hand to meet our operating needs while we take steps to further strengthen our company.''

Frontier's action adds to the turbulence in the U.S. airline industry. AMR Corp.'s American Airlines canceled more than 3,000 flights this week to inspect and repair wiring on its Boeing Co. MD-80 jets. U.S. carriers will post combined losses of $1.2 billion in the first quarter, Ray Neidl, a New York- based analyst at Calyon Securities Inc., said in a report today.

The cost of jet fuel, soaring 78 percent in the past year, and a slowing economy were blamed for the filings of Skybus Airlines Inc., Aloha Airgroup Inc. and ATA Airlines Inc. in the past three weeks.

Higher Collateral

First Data told Frontier April 8 it would retain half the proceeds of bankcard sales and increase collateral to $130 million from $54.5 million, according to a statement by Frontier Vice President Edward Christie filed with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Manhattan.

The company is exploring action including an equity infusion, Christie said. Frontier is considering securing the financing with the equity in its aircraft, which Christie estimated at ``in excess of $150 million.'' In January, Frontier said it would sell four Airbus SAS planes to boost cash.

Frontier's mainline operation has 62 Airbus A320 series jetliners and its Lynx Aviation unit has 10 Bombardier Inc. regional turboprops, the company said. Frontier Airlines has debt of $500 million to $1 billion and about the same in assets, according to Chapter 11 documents filed in bankruptcy court.

Frontier's Chapter 11 filing will block efforts to collect debts from the carrier, including those proceeds that the credit-card company is seeking to retain. While the ban may be lifted by court order, Frontier said it's prepared to litigate.

If First Data's hold on proceeds went unchecked, ``it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations.'' Menke said. First Data is based in Greenwood Village, Colorado.

Shares Drop

Frontier, the second-largest carrier at Denver International Airport, plunged 73 percent to 42 cents at 10:30 a.m. New York time in Nasdaq Stock Market trading, after tumbling 12 percent yesterday.

The 30 largest creditors without collateral backing their claims are owed a total of $109 million, court papers show. Wells Fargo & Co., the fifth-largest U.S. bank by assets, is listed as the largest unsecured creditor. It's owed $93 million. The largest secured claimholder with an $84 million claim is Q Aviation of Fort Worth, Texas.

Honolulu-based Aloha said on March 30 it was shutting down after failing to find a buyer or financing to keep flying. The carrier had applied for Chapter 11 protection on March 20, blaming a price war with Mesa Air Group Inc.'s Go! inter-island carrier.

Aloha previously filed for bankruptcy in December 2004 and emerged 14 months later.

Other Bankruptcies

ATA, based in Indianapolis, filed for court protection April 2 and ceased operations, citing fuel prices and the loss of a contract for military charter flights. ATA had exited bankruptcy in February 2006.

Skybus Airlines Inc., a U.S. low-fares carrier that started operations less than a year ago, filed for bankruptcy April 5 after stopping flights.

American Airlines has canceled 570 flights today. More than 273,000 passengers had been stranded through yesterday, and the latest cancellations may add about 63,000 others to that count. Compensating those travelers and fixing the planes will cost ``tens of millions of dollars,'' AMR Corp. CEO Gerard Arpey said yesterday.

Fuel Suppliers

Frontier also indicated in its court filings that fuel suppliers were tightening their credit terms, cutting into the company's liquidity. Frontier's average fuel cost rose from $2.12 a gallon for the quarter ended Dec. 31, 2006 to $3.39 a gallon as of April 9.

During March, Frontier bought about 430,000 barrels of jet fuel. The company sought approval from U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Robert Drain to continue fuel supply agreements. Frontier expects to make advance payments of $54.5 million to fuel suppliers for May, according to court papers.

The carrier serves 62 cities in 36 U.S. states, plus six in Mexico, one in Canada and one in Costa Rica. It employs about 6,000 people. Subsidiaries Frontier Airlines and Lynx Aviation also sought bankruptcy.

The case is In re: Frontier Airlines Inc., 08-11297, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan).

To contact the reporters on this story: Dawn McCarty in Wilmington, Delaware, at dmccarty@bloomberg.net; Hugo Miller in Toronto at hugomiller@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: April 11, 2008 11:04 EDT
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,850
0
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Where in that article did it say that Wells forced them into bankruptcy?
Bolded for you
Where does it mention WFC did this?
Heh, the article says "The credit card processor, First Data Corp., did not have an immediate comment Friday." right after that bolded statement.

And I don't blame credit card processor for doing that. Does frontier expect their vendors/customers/banks to treat them the same when their credit rating has plummeted?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: rchiu
Heh, the article says "The credit card processor, First Data Corp., did not have an immediate comment Friday." right after that bolded statement.

And I don't blame credit card processor for doing that. Does frontier expect their vendors/customers/banks to treat them the same when their credit rating has plummeted?
Why are you and LK so protective of Wells Fargo???

Calyon Securities analyst Ray Neidl "We do not see a future for Frontier as it faces tough competition in Denver from United on the network side and Southwest on the low cost side,"

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
FWIW.. First Data is only a processing company.. right? They are not a lending institution.. and from what I can see they do have a contract with Wells Fargo to take care of their processing...

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,534
733
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Read your own article troll.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Where in that article did it say that Wells forced them into bankruptcy?
Bolded for you
Please assist my reading.

Where in what you bolded does it say Wells Fargo?
Also, the Ariticle title does not state they were forced by Wells Fargo.
You either jumped the gun by making assumptions or again twisted the facts.
Either way, in black and white, you completely ended up with egg on your face.

WFC is a creditor - not the reason why they filed.
While you are at it, why not also blame the City of Denver - they are a creditor also.

First Data wanted 3x the amount of money upfront from Frontier for use of the credit card processing. That would cripple the cash flow of Frontier or depleted all of their reserves.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Where in that article did it say that Wells forced them into bankruptcy?
Bolded for you
Please asist my reading.

Where in what you bolded does it say Wells Fargo.

WFC is a creditor - not the reason why they filed.
While you are at it, why not also blame the City of Denver - they are a creditor also.
OK add the city too. First Data, Wells Fargo and Denver.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
You just want to spread the blame and fog up your mistake.

There was only one reason - which I explained more clearly in the post which is requoted
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Please assist my reading.

Where in what you bolded does it say Wells Fargo?
Also, the Ariticle title does not state they were forced by Wells Fargo.
You either jumped the gun by making assumptions or againstwisted the facts.
Either way, in black and white, you have completely ended up with egg on your face.

WFC is a creditor - not the reason why they filed.
While you are at it, why not also blame the City of Denver - they are a creditor also.

First Data wanted 3x the amount of money upfront from Frontier for use of the credit card processing. That would cripple the cash flow of Frontier or depleted all of their reserves.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
216
101
We just cry, and bend over to take another round in the pooper.
Why is it that anal sex has to be the metaphor all the time? I suppose if it's rape we're talking about that's one thing. But, it does get pretty old.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
You just want to spread the blame and fog up your mistake.

There was only one reason - which I explained more clearly in the post which is requoted
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Please assist my reading.

Where in what you bolded does it say Wells Fargo?
Also, the Ariticle title does not state they were forced by Wells Fargo.
You either jumped the gun by making assumptions or againstwisted the facts.
Either way, in black and white, you have completely ended up with egg on your face.

WFC is a creditor - not the reason why they filed.
While you are at it, why not also blame the City of Denver - they are a creditor also.

First Data wanted 3x the amount of money upfront from Frontier for use of the credit card processing. That would cripple the cash flow of Frontier or depleted all of their reserves.
Wha are you defending Wells Fargo? Have an interest in the bank?
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1

"Shady lenders" werent the only ones making risky loans. I worked for Wells Fargo, and we did sub prime paper every day of the week (back in the late 80's). I think the percentage of unscrupulous lenders is like the number of subprime loans that actually went bad-single digits. Thats speculation of course, but we have no way of knowing. Yes, their use has increased quite a bit in the last 15 years; however, Im not sure blaming the Fed is the right thing to do. More and more people live in excess. They drive cars they cant afford, buy TV's on credit, and generally spend money the same way our government does. On credit. Now, admittedly I am an anti-credit activist. I have zero debt at this moment, and the most Ive had in the last 10 years was about $700. And that was living through 3 layoffs. But when is the last time you saw an ad on TV that wasnt a lease payment? Its been YEARS. Its all about the monthly payment. And its all about people wanting more than they have, and not learning to live within their means. As I said before I *do* lay *some* blame on *some* lenders. But the bulk of the blame lies with consumers.
Sorry but it it is not the consumers job nor responsibility to ensure that then lenders make money. You simple can not blame any of the problems the banks are having on the consumers. It is completely illogical.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,599
5
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
You just want to spread the blame and fog up your mistake.

There was only one reason - which I explained more clearly in the post which is requoted
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Please assist my reading.

Where in what you bolded does it say Wells Fargo?
Also, the Ariticle title does not state they were forced by Wells Fargo.
You either jumped the gun by making assumptions or againstwisted the facts.
Either way, in black and white, you have completely ended up with egg on your face.

WFC is a creditor - not the reason why they filed.
While you are at it, why not also blame the City of Denver - they are a creditor also.

First Data wanted 3x the amount of money upfront from Frontier for use of the credit card processing. That would cripple the cash flow of Frontier or depleted all of their reserves.
Wha are you defending Wells Fargo? Have an interest in the bank?
Not defending Wells Fargo.

Just making sure that accuracy is kept on who triggered the problem and why.

Deliberate misrepresentation assists no one except those with a hidden agenda.

 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,534
733
126
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: blackangst1

"Shady lenders" werent the only ones making risky loans. I worked for Wells Fargo, and we did sub prime paper every day of the week (back in the late 80's). I think the percentage of unscrupulous lenders is like the number of subprime loans that actually went bad-single digits. Thats speculation of course, but we have no way of knowing. Yes, their use has increased quite a bit in the last 15 years; however, Im not sure blaming the Fed is the right thing to do. More and more people live in excess. They drive cars they cant afford, buy TV's on credit, and generally spend money the same way our government does. On credit. Now, admittedly I am an anti-credit activist. I have zero debt at this moment, and the most Ive had in the last 10 years was about $700. And that was living through 3 layoffs. But when is the last time you saw an ad on TV that wasnt a lease payment? Its been YEARS. Its all about the monthly payment. And its all about people wanting more than they have, and not learning to live within their means. As I said before I *do* lay *some* blame on *some* lenders. But the bulk of the blame lies with consumers.
Sorry but it it is not the consumers job nor responsibility to ensure that then lenders make money. You simple can not blame any of the problems the banks are having on the consumers. It is completely illogical.
But the problems banks are having are BECAUSE of consumers. For the most part. Who are the ones not paying their debts?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,731
13,842
136
From blackangst1-

But the problems banks are having are BECAUSE of consumers. For the most part. Who are the ones not paying their debts?
OTOH, whose financial "experts" failed to properly evaluate risk in their modeling?

Lenders, of course. They were blinded by the fat profit potential in acting as a conduit for risky mortgages, and got caught holding more than they could choke down when investors shied away.

Investors did so for good reason. Methods commonly used in furniture loans and credit card rates were being applied to mortgages by lenders. It's one thing to get screwed to the tune of $50 or $100 per month for a few years or months- consumers can take that hit, come out whole on the other side. They can't take hits of $500 or $1000 per month for 30 years on their mortgage, plain and simple. And that's exactly what happens when their teaser ARM resets.

Real estate salespeople and lenders invoked a state of near panic in potential homebuyers who feared they'd be shut out of home ownership forever if they didn't hurry up and buy now! Then hustled them into a loan they *thought* they could sell to somebody, anybody, else...

So, who's dumber- guys who took the loan, or credentialed teams of analysts who ignored basic household finance when they issued the loan? Who ignored the possibility that their firms might be left holding the bag when investors balked?

Being leveraged at 30 or 40 to 1 is a money making proposition on the way up, for sure, but potentially lethal when the market turns. Even relatively small losses can easily lead to insolvency... this so-called lack ok of liquidity just being the precursor to that...
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: smack Down
Originally posted by: blackangst1

"Shady lenders" werent the only ones making risky loans. I worked for Wells Fargo, and we did sub prime paper every day of the week (back in the late 80's). I think the percentage of unscrupulous lenders is like the number of subprime loans that actually went bad-single digits. Thats speculation of course, but we have no way of knowing. Yes, their use has increased quite a bit in the last 15 years; however, Im not sure blaming the Fed is the right thing to do. More and more people live in excess. They drive cars they cant afford, buy TV's on credit, and generally spend money the same way our government does. On credit. Now, admittedly I am an anti-credit activist. I have zero debt at this moment, and the most Ive had in the last 10 years was about $700. And that was living through 3 layoffs. But when is the last time you saw an ad on TV that wasnt a lease payment? Its been YEARS. Its all about the monthly payment. And its all about people wanting more than they have, and not learning to live within their means. As I said before I *do* lay *some* blame on *some* lenders. But the bulk of the blame lies with consumers.
Sorry but it it is not the consumers job nor responsibility to ensure that then lenders make money. You simple can not blame any of the problems the banks are having on the consumers. It is completely illogical.
But the problems banks are having are BECAUSE of consumers. For the most part. Who are the ones not paying their debts?
No the problem banks are having isn't because of consumers. Banks are in trouble because they made loans that are no being paid back.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
First Data is not a creditor.. FWIW.. they only do the paperwork - if I understand their role correctly
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,261
68
86
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is one of the banks I said would fail well back last January 2007.

Wells Fargo is getting more desperate by the day.

4-11-2008 Wells Fargo forces Frontier to file for bankruptcy protection

DENVER - Frontier Airlines sought bankruptcy protection Friday, the fourth carrier to do so in the past several weeks as exorbitant fuel prices eat into earnings and a weak U.S. economy keeps more people grounded.

The Chapter 11 filing in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York prevents the credit card processor from increasing its "holdback," Frontier CEO Sean Menke said.

"Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the sale of Frontier tickets," he said. "This change in established practices would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints on Frontier's liquidity and would have made it impossible for us to continue normal operations."

He said Frontier Holdings Inc. was prepared to litigate, if necessary.

The creditor listed in bankruptcy court documents as having the largest general unsecured claim against Frontier by far was Wells Fargo, with $93.5 million. Frontier said it had fewer than 50 creditors.

At the end of last year, Frontier said, it had assets of $98.3 million and debts of $92.2 million.

A Frontier spokesman said earlier this week the airline had "no concerns about bankruptcy" but added that it was working on strengthening its cash position.

Last month, Frontier said it had agreed to sell four planes to counter rising fuel costs.

Frontier shares lost most of their value in premarket trading Friday, tumbling $1.27 to 30 cents each.
Where in that article did it say that Wells forced them into bankruptcy?
Bolded for you
Please asist my reading.

Where in what you bolded does it say Wells Fargo.

WFC is a creditor - not the reason why they filed.
While you are at it, why not also blame the City of Denver - they are a creditor also.
OK add the city too. First Data, Wells Fargo and Denver.
It wasn't anybody but First Data who grabbed cash and forced bankruptcy. Don't be intentionally dense dave.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
It wasn't anybody but First Data who grabbed cash and forced bankruptcy. Don't be intentionally dense dave.
Speaking of grabbing cash:

4-13-2008 Wachovia to get $7B investment

Wachovia's troubles with the housing slump have been compounded by its 2006 acquisition of California-based Golden West, a $24 billion deal whose timing, Thompson has admitted, "was not the best."

"With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the timing was poor for this expansion in the mortgage business," Thompson wrote in February.
=========================================

Let's hear the defending of yet another bank by the corporate supporters here.

Sure blast individuals but don't say anything bad against the mighty corporate whores.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,534
733
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
It wasn't anybody but First Data who grabbed cash and forced bankruptcy. Don't be intentionally dense dave.
Speaking of grabbing cash:

4-13-2008 Wachovia to get $7B investment

Wachovia's troubles with the housing slump have been compounded by its 2006 acquisition of California-based Golden West, a $24 billion deal whose timing, Thompson has admitted, "was not the best."

"With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the timing was poor for this expansion in the mortgage business," Thompson wrote in February.
=========================================

Let's hear the defending of yet another bank by the corporate supporters here.

Sure blast individuals but don't say anything bad against the mighty corporate whores.
See the word "hindsight"? Not everyone has the foresight you do Dave. Not everyone can foresee something going backwards.

Oh wait.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,912
46
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
It wasn't anybody but First Data who grabbed cash and forced bankruptcy. Don't be intentionally dense dave.
Speaking of grabbing cash:

4-13-2008 Wachovia to get $7B investment

Wachovia's troubles with the housing slump have been compounded by its 2006 acquisition of California-based Golden West, a $24 billion deal whose timing, Thompson has admitted, "was not the best."

"With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the timing was poor for this expansion in the mortgage business," Thompson wrote in February.
=========================================

Let's hear the defending of yet another bank by the corporate supporters here.

Sure blast individuals but don't say anything bad against the mighty corporate whores.
See the word "hindsight"? Not everyone has the foresight you do Dave. Not everyone can foresee something going backwards.

Oh wait.
Oh yeah, Oh wait you didn't answer the question as usual.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
216
101
Male sex hormone may affect stock trades

The hormone that drives male aggression and sexual interest also seems able to boost short term success at finance. But what seems to start out well can turn bad, with elevated testosterone levels over several days possibly leading to irrational risk-taking, according to researchers at the University of Cambridge in England.

"If people want to get practical, it would be good for both banks and the financial system as a whole if we had more women and older men in the markets,"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...n_sc/traders_sex_drive
An interesting insight. The article is worth a look I think.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
20,534
733
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
It wasn't anybody but First Data who grabbed cash and forced bankruptcy. Don't be intentionally dense dave.
Speaking of grabbing cash:

4-13-2008 Wachovia to get $7B investment

Wachovia's troubles with the housing slump have been compounded by its 2006 acquisition of California-based Golden West, a $24 billion deal whose timing, Thompson has admitted, "was not the best."

"With the benefit of hindsight, it is clear that the timing was poor for this expansion in the mortgage business," Thompson wrote in February.
=========================================

Let's hear the defending of yet another bank by the corporate supporters here.

Sure blast individuals but don't say anything bad against the mighty corporate whores.
See the word "hindsight"? Not everyone has the foresight you do Dave. Not everyone can foresee something going backwards.

Oh wait.
Oh yeah, Oh wait you didn't answer the question as usual.
Question? What question? youre making shit up again. As usual.
 

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