The AT World of Warcraft Thread (Where do you play) and general BS

[Aikouka]

Yeah, it's 119 healing and I didn't include the other on equip buff because it's the same as the current alchemist stone. I think the +54 spell hit is poor because most gear will max you out already. I think the stone would be much better if they distributed some points toward spell damage so it was maybe +20 spell hit and +40 spell damage. It'd be nice if they did something similar with the physical crit one too.

Just as a note, here are the required items to make these (note that all of them require the Alchemist's Stone, so you need to make the +15 to all stats one first):
+spell hit - 2x Nether Vortex, 14x Primal Fire
+healing - 2x Nether Vortex, 14x Primal Life
+defense - 2x Nether Vortex, 14x Primal Air
+physical crit - 2x Nether Vortex, 14x Primal Shadow

Personally, I think the shaman change to Flametongue is rather worthless. The buff isn't going to affect them much because they're going to have to sacrifice one of their weapon buffs to do this. Also, how exactly does it work? Will each hit have a chance to apply the debuff or will any hit from the flametongue'd weapon apply the debuff. In this case, it might be better to use FT on the OH rather than dual WF. The MH would be a poor choice because WF is still good and almost necessary for burst damage.

The problem is... shamans like using 2H'rs in PVP because of the higher burst damage! They're not going to want to replace windfury with flametongue unless they replace windfury with flametongue, apply the debuff and then put windfury back on.

Another problem is, the Shamanistic Rage buff provides good use for PVP, but a PVP shaman that will use a 1H'r will not go that far and would most likely spec further into Restoration (although if the shaman wants more utility in PVE, they'll probably spec the usual raid spec). Then again, the Toughness change (grants +20% armor right now) may also push shamans into changing their spec even more. I think Blizzard is finally realizing that Shamans cannot be tanks and that they need to adjust the talents to make up for it. Right now, there's still Shield Specialization which either needs to be removed or changed to better suit the fact that Shamans aren't tanks (some can tank at lower levels but still not worth it).

Do the Alchemist stones also handle conjured items as well?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Do the Alchemist stones also handle conjured items as well?

I don't believe so.

Also, with 2.4 allowing the purchase of nether vortexes I don't find the mats to be bad at all if you are after the +healing version. I agree with the suggestion of changing spell hit to include or solely be comprised of spell dmg though. They also might even want to consider spell haste as a viable alternative.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
possibly a great day to be a resto shaman in certain 3s set-ups. never ending mana, and an MS debuff!

Also, locks have not been OP for a long time. People that still whine about them have decided to remain ignorant and refused to educate themselves. Every time I see a lock on the other team in my 2s or 3s my eyes light up. Either on my warrior or priest... hell even my frost mage too now, unless lock is proper played.

Locks are like Hunters to me, great when played well, but so many people that are bad rolled them with high hopes...

Don't tell Kalgan that. He must be having trouble in the 2v2 bracket with his warrior.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Shamans use DW just as much if not more than a 2H in PvP... plus yes they can weapon swap just like good rogues do if need be. If there is no healer then you don't need FT.

Resto Shamans in 2.4 will sure as shit spec into toughness, and the rest Resto.

I think on the PTR that was updated the debuff is either buggy or not working at all, can't verify if it's chance on hit or every hit or what.

 

[rh71]

I finally found my way onto elitistjerks.com rogue101 thread and there's spreadsheets to download from there. Apparently it's more accurate than shadowpanther as the latter is static info comparing one item with another using MAEP. Anyway, I used the spreadsheets from EJ and the new 2.4 rogue belt (which is +44 AEP from my current girdle of treachery according to SP.net) shows up as a minimal gain on the spreadsheets. I think it was only like 4dps more. The 2nd best belt in the game?! How can SP show such a huge gain but the spreadsheets show only 4dps more? This was supposed to be my biggest upgrade according to the MAEP system.

If that was supposed to be +44 AEP more, then less upgrades that would do +12AEP would be like 1dps more. Does that sound right to you? Any effort that's used on anything less than 25dps is crap imo. Am I looking at it all wrong?

EDIT>> Ok now it's showing +16dps. It's a bit flaky. Is +16dps for 1 item upgrade considered a huge gain?

 

[AntiFreze]

Originally posted by: rh71
I finally found my way onto elitistjerks.com rogue101 thread and there's spreadsheets to download from there. Apparently it's more accurate than shadowpanther as the latter is static info comparing one item with another using MAEP. Anyway, I used the spreadsheets from EJ and the new 2.4 rogue belt (which is +44 AEP from my current girdle of treachery according to SP.net) shows up as a minimal gain on the spreadsheets. I think it was only like 4dps more. How can the discrepancies be so much? This was supposed to be my biggest upgrade according to the MAEP system.

If that was supposed to be +44 AEP more, then less upgrades that would do +12AEP would be like 1dps more. Does that sound right to you? Any effort that's used on anything less than 25dps is crap imo. Am I looking at it all wrong?

So their spreadsheet is more accurate? Do you plug in all of your equipment, gems, enchantments, etc. and it calculates that way?

I have been using shadowpanther.net exclusively the last month for equipment. maybe i should switch over.

 

[rh71]

The spreadsheets allow you to plug in EVERYTHING.

EDIT>> Ok now the 2.4 belt is showing +16dps. It's a bit flaky. Is +16dps for 1 item upgrade considered a huge gain? A 5-min boss fight and that's only about 5k more dmg. Hmm.

 

[AntiFreze]

hmmmm.... now i wonder... i need to download that spreadsheet.

I'll use that to see if I should go for:

Talon of Azshara and S1 Offhand sword

or

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and S1 offhand fist (and later upgrade to the 2.4 badge one)

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Also, with 2.4 allowing the purchase of nether vortexes I don't find the mats to be bad at all if you are after the +healing version. I agree with the suggestion of changing spell hit to include or solely be comprised of spell dmg though. They also might even want to consider spell haste as a viable alternative.

Spell Haste... that's a good point. Blizzard seems to have a hard on for spell haste lately that I'm surprised they haven't used it.

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
Shamans use DW just as much if not more than a 2H in PvP... plus yes they can weapon swap just like good rogues do if need be. If there is no healer then you don't need FT.

Unless you're worried about your mana pool, there's no real issue with just switching the weapon buff. I'll have to give it a try in PVP, but yet again... one of the enhancement shaman's main power is from crits and well, we all know about crits in PVP.

Too much to think about these days =\.

 

[Lamont Burns]

I don't Arena on a shaman so I could be wrong, but wouldn't switching buffs be a gcd every time you wanted to refresh the MS, whereas swapping could be hot-keyed just as easily with no gcd? Whether either interrupts or resets a swing timer I'm also not 100% sure, but assuming the same then the method minus the gcd seems more advantageous? maybe swapping procs gcd, I'm not 100% on that either.

Enhancement shamans have terrible mana pools... and go OOM in arena pretty often if the fight lasts more than 2-3 minutes, sometimes less. Weapon buffs are cheap, but refreshing it every so often to reapply MS seems like a terrible waste of mana. The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome. Just leaving a fast OH with FT an entire match also would seem to suck for DPS.

I'm hoping to see some Resto Druid/Enhance Shaman 2s teams popping up in 2.4... would be cool to see imo.

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
I don't Arena on a shaman so I could be wrong, but wouldn't switching buffs be a gcd every time you wanted to refresh the MS, whereas swapping could be hot-keyed just as easily with no gcd? Whether either interrupts or resets a swing timer I'm also not 100% sure, but assuming the same then the method minus the gcd seems more advantageous? maybe swapping procs gcd, I'm not 100% on that either.

Enhancement shamans have terrible mana pools... and go OOM in arena pretty often if the fight lasts more than 2-3 minutes, sometimes less. Weapon buffs are cheap, but refreshing it every so often to reapply MS seems like a terrible waste of mana. The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome. Just leaving a fast OH with FT an entire match also would seem to suck for DPS.

I'm hoping to see some Resto Druid/Enhance Shaman 2s teams popping up in 2.4... would be cool to see imo.

Swapping weapons also causes the GCD. This was changed about a year ago, because rogues and warriors would abuse the hell out of switching in chained weapons which caused no penalty whatsoever.

The only times I went OOM in PVP on my shaman is when we didn't have the Shamanistic Focus talent and I'd be tossin' shocks like a frayed electric wire. The problem with having a separate weapon is the fact that you probably don't want to throw it on some piece of crap that could also harm your damage output for the time that you've got it on.

Also, is this debuff physical or magical? Also, will they buff rogue wound poison because of this? 5 stacks helps effectiveness in keeping them from being removed easily, but it also is harder to put on... unless you're a shiv'er 😛.

 

[DarkRipper]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze

Originally posted by: DarkRipper

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
I agree with the 54 crit being so-so. I currently use the Dragonspine trophy from gruul and the warp-spring coil from VR. My crit is low, but no way am I going to give up either of those trinkets.

How low is low? I run with 24ish unbuffed (combat rogue) and I regularly top the WWS.

that's about where im at with 23.9 or so unbuffed. I am always in the top 3 in damage charts (combat daggers).


So I've been looking around, and was planning on switching to swords once tidewalker dropped the nice 1h (already have honor saved up for my S1 offhand) - but - I saw 2.4 badge gear. Those fist weapons are looking pretty damn sweet.

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality - 105 badges
Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality - 45 badges

That would do significantly more dps than the Talon of Azshara and S1 Offhand sword. I have about 40 badges atm.... I should be able to pull off enough badges before 2.4 hits.

I'm just one of those rogues who refuses to use fist weapons 😀

 

[AntiFreze]

Originally posted by: DarkRipper

Originally posted by: AntiFreze

Originally posted by: DarkRipper

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
I agree with the 54 crit being so-so. I currently use the Dragonspine trophy from gruul and the warp-spring coil from VR. My crit is low, but no way am I going to give up either of those trinkets.

How low is low? I run with 24ish unbuffed (combat rogue) and I regularly top the WWS.

that's about where im at with 23.9 or so unbuffed. I am always in the top 3 in damage charts (combat daggers).


So I've been looking around, and was planning on switching to swords once tidewalker dropped the nice 1h (already have honor saved up for my S1 offhand) - but - I saw 2.4 badge gear. Those fist weapons are looking pretty damn sweet.

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality - 105 badges
Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality - 45 badges

That would do significantly more dps than the Talon of Azshara and S1 Offhand sword. I have about 40 badges atm.... I should be able to pull off enough badges before 2.4 hits.

I'm just one of those rogues who refuses to use fist weapons 😀

Up until 1 month ago when I read the rogue guide from elitistjerks I refused to use anything besides daggers. Now debating between swords and fists.


Why do you refuse to use fists but will use swords? 🙂

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Why do you refuse to use fists but will use swords? 🙂

Personally I prefer sword's chance on hit rather than fist's +crit.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
I don't Arena on a shaman so I could be wrong, but wouldn't switching buffs be a gcd every time you wanted to refresh the MS, whereas swapping could be hot-keyed just as easily with no gcd? Whether either interrupts or resets a swing timer I'm also not 100% sure, but assuming the same then the method minus the gcd seems more advantageous? maybe swapping procs gcd, I'm not 100% on that either.

Enhancement shamans have terrible mana pools... and go OOM in arena pretty often if the fight lasts more than 2-3 minutes, sometimes less. Weapon buffs are cheap, but refreshing it every so often to reapply MS seems like a terrible waste of mana. The whole thing seems extremely cumbersome. Just leaving a fast OH with FT an entire match also would seem to suck for DPS.

I'm hoping to see some Resto Druid/Enhance Shaman 2s teams popping up in 2.4... would be cool to see imo.

Swapping weapons also causes the GCD. This was changed about a year ago, because rogues and warriors would abuse the hell out of switching in chained weapons which caused no penalty whatsoever.

The only times I went OOM in PVP on my shaman is when we didn't have the Shamanistic Focus talent and I'd be tossin' shocks like a frayed electric wire. The problem with having a separate weapon is the fact that you probably don't want to throw it on some piece of crap that could also harm your damage output for the time that you've got it on.

Also, is this debuff physical or magical? Also, will they buff rogue wound poison because of this? 5 stacks helps effectiveness in keeping them from being removed easily, but it also is harder to put on... unless you're a shiv'er 😛.

Most high end rated players have more than a surplus of points... so a separate weapon should not be an issue. However, enhancement shamans in that area are rare, and respecers might need a month or 2 to gear it correctly I suppose.

I guess outside of 2s I still see them being bursted or kited just the same on most teams.

The Shaman I do 3s with on an alt now still goes OOM with mostly s2/s3 gear b/c he is either bursted and dead, or kited and using shocks with no focus procs. He's basically a bloodlust/purge bot with some totemzzz... but it's just alts so it's about 1650 or bust for us atm.

Maybe they could make instant wolf also remove movement impairing effects... that would be not surprising, and just as unoriginal and lame as MS for yet another class.

 

[AntiFreze]

Originally posted by: Aikouka

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
Why do you refuse to use fists but will use swords? 🙂

Personally I prefer sword's chance on hit rather than fist's +crit.

hmmm... I've always been daggers so i dont know too much about this.

So are you saying swords typically have chance on hits and fists typically have +crit stats on the weapon themselves? or is that in the talent tree?

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
hmmm... I've always been daggers so i dont know too much about this.

So are you saying swords typically have chance on hits and fists typically have +crit stats on the weapon themselves? or is that in the talent tree?

I just mean the talent.

 

[AntiFreze]

oh... never actually paid attention to that. I always assumed that daggers, swords, maces, and fist all had the same 5/5.... just specific to that weapon.

so...
swords are 5/5 +5% to hit?
fists are 5/5 +5% to crit?

What are daggers and maces? (at work and cant think atm)

🙂

 

[AntiFreze]

ah, found this from wowwiki (thanks google cache)

"...However, daggers are good because the Dagger Specialization talent is better than the Sword Spec talent. Dagger Spec gives an additional 5% to crit with daggers, whereas Sword Spec claims it gives a 5% chance to get an extra attack. But that's not actually how Sword Spec works.

What it really does is give a 5% chance to reset your swing timer, immediately swinging your sword. This is not quite an extra attack, since it can proc off specials -- if you SS when your sword was about to swing anyway, and get an sword spec proc off the SS, you haven't gained anything. Additionally, if sword spec procs from an offhand weapon, it resets the main hand swing timer, again not giving you the full benefit of an entire extra attack. Fists are the best of both worlds since you can find nice slow ones for you main hand, but the fist spec talent is just like dagger spec -- a juicy 5% crit. Thus, if you can find decent fist weapons (which is a lot easier in BC than it used to be in vanilla WoW), fists are better than swords."

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
oh... never actually paid attention to that. I always assumed that daggers, swords, maces, and fist all had the same 5/5.... just specific to that weapon.

so...
swords are 5/5 +5% to hit?
fists are 5/5 +5% to crit?

What are daggers and maces? (at work and cant think atm)

🙂

Swords are +5% chance on hit to gain an extra attack.
Maces are +5% chance on hit to stun and 5% extra critical attack damage.
Daggers are +5% crit chance.
Fists are +5% crit chance.

 

[AntiFreze]

so when the elitistjerks forum says Swords are better than fist by +/- <1% are they saying this because of that 5% difference in hit to crit.

or are they saying that in conjunction with available weapons?

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: AntiFreze
so when the elitistjerks forum says Swords are better than fist by +/- <1% are they saying this because of that 5% difference in hit to crit.

or are they saying that in conjunction with available weapons?

its not 5% to hit, its 5% TO CAUSE AN EXTRA ATTACK ON HIT, think windfury, same concept

and yes thats why swords are slightly better then fists

 

[invidia]

Fists and dagger specs are not better than sword spec. The extra swing is marginally better than the extra crit from fists and a much better than dagger spec. If you look through enough WoWstats of a rogue in a raid, you will notice that at least 60-70% of the damage they do comes from auto/white attacks. A high backstab with low white damage cannot keep up with the overall SS and white damage done by swords.

In MH and BT, daggers, both combat and mutilate, loses their edge in sustain DPS for rogues. Especially with the introduction of haste gear at that level. Many guilds require their rogues to be combat swords to keep up the damage in the raid. It's not a theory anymore - since it was tested over and over and over in raids - just a fact, that sword spec's damage is much higher than any dagger spec.

 

[AntiFreze]

Originally posted by: invidia
Fists and dagger specs are not better than sword spec. The extra swing is marginally better than the extra crit from fists and a much better than dagger spec. If you look through enough WoWstats of a rogue in a raid, you will notice that at least 60-70% of the damage they do comes from auto/white attacks. A high backstab with low white damage cannot keep up with the overall SS and white damage done by swords.

In MH and BT, daggers, both combat and mutilate, loses their edge in sustain DPS for rogues. Especially with the introduction of haste gear at that level. Many guilds require their rogues to be combat swords to keep up the damage in the raid. It's not a theory anymore - since it was tested over and over and over in raids - just a fact, that sword spec's damage is much higher than any dagger spec.

oh, I completely agree that daggers take a backseat right after Kara/gruul. My question is about swords vs fists.

I can attain higher dps fists than swords (after 2.4) but i don't know if that offsets the difference in a fist vs sword spec.

 

[Sutareteiru]

This is sort of the last place i expected to see a topic on WoW! I'm an old school player since the beta, done the whole, best gear in game stuff top end raiding fun(no life) stuff, i retired for about a year and am lookin to come back, im just looking for someone to play with, im gonna attempt casual, few hours a day so, if any1 wants to make a newbie horde or alliance either 1 toss me a msg. Preferrable looking for a pvp server with someone to do some 2v2 arena! mwahah



Sut