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Soccerman06
Diamond Member
- Jul 29, 2004
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Ignorance like yours is why warlocks are getting the nerf bat. Go look at wws reports of a guild who's killed KJ and you'll notice warlocks are only on top of 2 bosses and that is because they get to aoe. Every dps class has a simple rotation except for sp and fury warriors to max their dps. You cant really say we're the only class that only has to watch agro. BM hunters, Mages, Rogues, Boomkin, and Ele/Ehn Shaman all spam 2 buttons, so technically all they do is watch threat meters and spam 222322232223 ect.
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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Sorry I wasn't thinking about hardcore raiders again. Really sorry. :roll: Those casuals... you know, the majority of the game's players, they experience what I experienced (again, this is just an alt with much less time played, topping dps) and that's my opinion on the matter. What do you think about locks who aren't T6?
non destruction warlocks should not be toping any metters unless it is an extreamly dot friendly fight or has heavy AOE, even at T5 lvls non Destro locks dont top anything that does not have some sort of gimic, yes when they make the swap to destro from aff in mid/late T5 they blow the other classes away simply because we scale faster at lower gear lvls then super gear dependent classes like rogues
if you take all the classes in full 10 man/badge gear with their prime DPS spec Rogues and hunter would be on par if not greater then destro locks depending on the fight, mages about equal with the rest of the DPS classes closely behind that
if you take all the classes in full 10 man/badge gear with their prime DPS spec Rogues and hunter would be on par if not greater then destro locks depending on the fight, mages about equal with the rest of the DPS classes closely behind that
Soccerman06
Diamond Member
- Jul 29, 2004
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I dont know what your raids are like, but for the most part, warlocks own everyone else in meters up until mid t5, then everything evens out. Even a rogue with the 2 weapon set from badges or hunter with badge xbow can own a warlock in dps. It more comes down to the fact that warlocks have it a tad easier in their dps rotation, another factor is how good the player is and their spec. Gear helps, but the largest difference between tier sets of gear is how good the player is at his class and his group makeup.
There is a lot of badly specced and poorly played characters, The reason why you see all these high dps is because they commit to being excellent, take a mage rotation, most mages in end game are just spam fireball pop icy veins when the cd is up and then 1 mage scorches every 25 seconds. Ive seen multiple mages in t4/5 who are a pom/pyro which is not the spec to be now days and will get beaten by a t4 warlock because of a poor spec.
A fully geared t4 warlock with a few tailoring sets can top out at 900dps with a decent group, a rogue with the same quality group with t4 and with the weapons from sunwell badge scan do 1000dps if he knows his rotation properly.
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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all that seems to say the same thing i did - which is a lot less effort on the lock's part as far as obtaining gear & effort needed to reach the top of the charts vs other classes prior to T6. It may not be right to nerf across the board just because you're not topping in Sunwell, but given everything leading up to it - locks are way too easy in pve. I go into raids pretty cocky on my lock but pretty reserved on my rogue knowing I need to actually concentrate. At the risk of sounding redundant - I don't even have to be topping the charts to see it - I know the kind of effort I put in and the results I'm getting.
troglodytis
Golden Member
- Nov 29, 2000
- 1,061
- 3
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howdy all
thinking about getting back in the game. anyone want to toss me a 'scroll of resurrection'?
PM me if so.
thx
EDIT: got one, thx anubis
thinking about getting back in the game. anyone want to toss me a 'scroll of resurrection'?
PM me if so.
thx
EDIT: got one, thx anubis
900dps from a T4 Warlock..... Honest question- do you seek out the poorest locks ever to play the game? Do they try and come up with the poorest spell rotation for dps possible? Are they bad enough at their class to be affliction in a raid? Seriously, either demo or destro have absolutely no hint of a problem clearing 1.2K dps in a ten man wearing nothing but T4 level gear and crafted epics- throw in just a little badge gear and they should be in the 1.5K range. I just geared an alt up through that level of a content with one of my buddies on his lock. We were in a Kara pug with an enhance shammy that was pushing out 900 dps wearing half blues..... the other half was greens- he got smoked by everyone but the tanks and healers(this was a straight alt run, outside of one BM hunter noone was packing any T5).
If they have the 2pc T5 bonus then being pom/pyro actually is an extremely viable spec. Most mages go frost for their 21 due to IV, but 40/xx/xx is the highest dps spec for 2pc T5 mage, has been for a while too.
We normally have out locks demo spec until they swap to destro, demo seems to do significantly higher dps then affliction. Also, we push to have them destro by the time they are finishing off T4 gear level(although it is a lot different then when you were doing it as the badge gear facilitates the swap much sooner).
Soccerman06
Diamond Member
- Jul 29, 2004
- 5,830
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I was talking general solo dps, because when you test your own dps on say Dr. Boom, you don't have outside offensive debuffs to increase your dps. Given a proper group a t4 destro lock can pull 1400dps whats your point, more times than not, the mages are the ones who get sp and group buffs because they need the regen more than warlocks in 25 mans. Unless you physically give the warlock every buff possible for karazhan, a t4 warlock will only do 900. Proper grouping can buff your dps by 50% any way you look at it.
Pom/Pyro is a poor spec to be even with 2 piece t5. It was the shit but now that certain fire abilities were buffed, a full 50 fire 11 ice is the way to go (increase in spell damage % on fireball). Most mages will consider the specs even at that point whether you have the set bonus or not, but when they don't have a shaman and sp (both) they will go oom on an extended fight.
Depending on the skill of the Aff warlock, a 35/0/26 will outdps an end tier demo warlock and for that matter most destro warlocks till end of T5. You can always spam 2 just like any other class, but aff locks need to actually be skilled and pay attention to timers to do proper dps, and being stuck in the tank group never helps their dps.
buuuut lets not argue who's got a bigger epeen. I was moreso just qqing at all the fing nerfs my class is getting for no real reason. We are getting something like 20% dps nerfs from the bottom 5 tiers alone.
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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^ looks like wotlk lock talents (destro) focus on more fire. Who knows how everything will turn out. I do think it'd be alright for another class to melt faces (yes, even before I-almost-beat-the-game phases).
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent
And maybe I'm stirring the pot again but personally, I still love affliction because I can EASILY both farm & bg too while doing pretty damn good raid dps. I tried destro once for a good while and if that's what it takes to stay in a solid raiding guild, no thanks to sb-spam multiple nights a week for hours on end. I don't find any fun in that. And I think they switched us to curse of elements so some locks wouldn't get carpal tunnel.
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent
And maybe I'm stirring the pot again but personally, I still love affliction because I can EASILY both farm & bg too while doing pretty damn good raid dps. I tried destro once for a good while and if that's what it takes to stay in a solid raiding guild, no thanks to sb-spam multiple nights a week for hours on end. I don't find any fun in that. And I think they switched us to curse of elements so some locks wouldn't get carpal tunnel.
When it comes to DPS and where they will all stand in WotLK, I wouldn't be upset nor excited about nerfs/buffs. Not only is everything subject to change (yes, I realize you have heard that 1000 times), but the other thing to consider are all of the encounters and how things will work in a raid as a team.
One of the biggest factors that people tend to forget is that the amount of DPS that a particular class/spec dishes out completely revolves around the type of encounter they are facing. While I realize they are far from perfection, Blizz did a really good job varying the encounters from Vanilla WoW to TBC when it comes to different DPS classes being #1 in usefulness and versatility. I expect them to do an even better job going from TBC to WotLK.
This also means, that while something might seem like a nerf at first it could very easily boil down to all of the classes and enemy NPCs being much more balanced for the upcoming changes. One of the biggest mistakes that I believe people are making when observing the beta info is that they are taking everything and applying it to TBC which could easily be grossly inaccurate.
One of the biggest factors that people tend to forget is that the amount of DPS that a particular class/spec dishes out completely revolves around the type of encounter they are facing. While I realize they are far from perfection, Blizz did a really good job varying the encounters from Vanilla WoW to TBC when it comes to different DPS classes being #1 in usefulness and versatility. I expect them to do an even better job going from TBC to WotLK.
This also means, that while something might seem like a nerf at first it could very easily boil down to all of the classes and enemy NPCs being much more balanced for the upcoming changes. One of the biggest mistakes that I believe people are making when observing the beta info is that they are taking everything and applying it to TBC which could easily be grossly inaccurate.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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So does Recklessness ^_^. They're all linked, hence why you can get a talent in Arms to lower the cooldown on all three (and raise their duration). Although, I found that Improved Shield Wall is a silly talent as it costs around the same amount of points, I believe it's a tier higher in the protection tree and only lengthens the duration of shield wall compared to the other that lengthens the duration and lowers the cooldown.
At least you can lower your aggro through spells/abilities... my poor Enhancement Shaman has one aggro lowering ability... death
. There is the innate 30% on all melee attacks, but that never really seems to help much. It'd be nice if they could make it so windfury strikes (kind of like Lightning Overload) deal less threat (but not 0, as to make it a bit more fair).One thing I'm wondering about... why exactly is fire destro-sac considered so bad? I haven't done any serious number crunching, but when doing a little, I don't really see why. From what I could see, fire gets an innate bonus from talents where shadow requires your SB to crit to gain the same bonuses. The only negative aspect that I can see is that to truly get the most DPS, you may have to use conflagration to help match the damage, which is an insta-cast, and insta-cast = insta-bad for the GCD. But as long as you keep up Immolate while casting Incinerate, the damage should be about the same?
Why would you want to spec that much into fire
. Even after getting Icy Veins, I could easily still throw 2 points into Arcane Concentration and still have all the necessary fire DPS talents.http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=of0MZxgz0fcI0eRxbhhbo
I threw the points into Improved Frost Ward, because of Naj'entus, but I don't personally know if you can actually reflect that or not. You may also want Improved Frost Nova for a little more utility in other situations. The only reason I could see someone spec'ing more points into fire is for utility outside of raids as sometimes Dragon's Breath and Blast Wave are simply good insta-casts.
Originally posted by: rh71
And maybe I'm stirring the pot again but personally, I still love affliction because I can EASILY both farm & bg too while doing pretty damn good raid dps. I tried destro once for a good while and if that's what it takes to stay in a solid raiding guild, no thanks to sb-spam multiple nights a week for hours on end. I don't find any fun in that. And I think they switched us to curse of elements so some locks wouldn't get carpal tunnel.
I hate affliction because of how bad it is for group DPS. I can't stand the fact that I'm specced for using DoTs and the mobs don't even last long enough for the DoTs to finish =\. I can't stand how inefficient that is, so in most groups, I'll literally just cast Corruption and Shadow Bolt spam hoping that my Corruption will proc Nightfall.
Fire currently is bad because it simply does less DPS then shadow the bonus shadow gets from Shadow Priests and the bonus ISB gives to SPs make Shadow far greater then fire. its all about the synergies
Conflag is a DPS decrease 10000% of the time, raid Fire destro builds dont even take the talent because its 100000% useless. there are 2 spells you cast as fire destro Immo and Incinerate, in wrath Fire will prob be better as they are buffing the fuck out of it and nerfing the fuck out of fire, + ISB will no longer benefit anyone other then the lock it procs off of, you will only need to cast Immo once because of that talent that has 100% refresh
Conflag is a DPS decrease 10000% of the time, raid Fire destro builds dont even take the talent because its 100000% useless. there are 2 spells you cast as fire destro Immo and Incinerate, in wrath Fire will prob be better as they are buffing the fuck out of it and nerfing the fuck out of fire, + ISB will no longer benefit anyone other then the lock it procs off of, you will only need to cast Immo once because of that talent that has 100% refresh
Beev
Diamond Member
- Apr 20, 2006
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Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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Fire Vulnerability is equivalent to the Misery effect. Also, the only reason I can see this as working would be that Improved Shadow Bolt applies itself after the fact where the talents on fire spells apply before the fact (i.e. if you incinerate range was 400-500 and you had a 10% buff from talents, it now does 440-550) where Improved Shadow Bolt would be afterward (such as if your shadowbolt hit normally, it'd deal 2000 damage... now it deals 2200 from a 10% buff rather than only having its base damage buffed). Other than having to actually refresh Immolate, I don't see how it's really that bad.
lupi
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2001
- 32,539
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Looks like to ease the incoming lock nerfs that. Blizz has given us a minor bone by alleviating access to the robes of arcana pattern. Had it drop for me over the weekend from a tauren in thousand needles. Not sure if they added some particular mobs to the 2 it used to drop from or made it a world drop, but after getting mine I searched for it on the AH and saw 3 others up, all way below what would have been the norm price.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
- 30,383
- 912
- 126
The Enchanted Bloodsoul Robe is a piece of crap compared to the stuff in instances. It used to be worthwhile, but Blizzard buffed instance loot and some quest loot, but seemingly ignored others. It's amusing how you can get +spell damage on your quest loot gear in Westfall
.This is so awesome. I want to roll a female shadow priest now with jet black hair just so I can make a her a biker chic.
fire isnt THAT bad but compaired to shadow is is bad
misery/shadoweaving > fire vuln
mana/HP return is better because of imp SB
SB hits harder then Incin with standard 70% ISB uptime, ive raided as both and ive never seen Incin crit for 11K on a fully debuffed mob,
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
- 30,383
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Misery affects all spells though.
Shadow Weaving only stacks to 10%. Fire Vulnerability stacks to 15%. It's also a little different now that the curses have been merged so fire and shadow can be buffed by the same curse. You should've seen my mage in Arc yesterday... regularly dealing 4000+ fireball crits :Q!
What bothered me is how people literally act like it's utter crap. Like one time my brother wanted to try it out and his guild laughed at him for it. He still produced 7k+ Incinerate crits (I don't know how the mob was buffed nor what his stats were at the time). So it's not like his damage was horrible. Although basing it on what I remember, he talked about 7k+ Incinerates but also mentioned (after changing) that he did 8k+ Shadowbolt crits.
I think I asked this before but I can't remember... what's a typical paladin tree that's combined with protection? I can see how you'd use holy or ret to fill in, but I can't make up my mind. I see ret as being better for raiding/grouping where holy serves as better for solo work.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVhuhx0dggqt
http://www.wowdb.com/talent.as...=2#f21e2fce2fef3e10f22
That's what I chose for the core talents, but I could see a benefit in both trees. +5% parry being great for avoidance where +SoR damage is good for simply holding aggro, but I see those as different roles. The +SoR being good for grouping where +parry is good for raiding where you want to have more avoidance.
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
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Damn it... 1% wipe on M'uru last night. Oh well at least we are getting adds down with seconds to spare, even before the nerf. Just gotta get that lucky attempt where nobody shanks aggro, busts a sheep, is .001 seconds late on a MD, etc, and everything goes absolutely perfect for more than a minute.
PS: and @#$@#$ blizzard for breaking the only bone they've given Holy pallys with libram juggling. Can't swap between LoM and LoAT and LoSR anymore without getting a GCD or interrupted heal. I'm going to start wearing resto shaman gear for MP5 and leave my relic slot empty as protest for Blizzard never reitemizing plate healing gear or librams for MP5 after the illumination and downranking and BoL nerfs.
PS: and @#$@#$ blizzard for breaking the only bone they've given Holy pallys with libram juggling. Can't swap between LoM and LoAT and LoSR anymore without getting a GCD or interrupted heal. I'm going to start wearing resto shaman gear for MP5 and leave my relic slot empty as protest for Blizzard never reitemizing plate healing gear or librams for MP5 after the illumination and downranking and BoL nerfs.
Aikouka
Lifer
- Nov 27, 2001
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Now you know how it feels to be an enhancement shaman stuck with MP5... but that's also because damn Hunters use mail gear and they don't mind MP5 where as since Shamanistic Focus and Shamanistic Rage, it's worthless for us and a complete waste of itemization points.
I think it's going to be even worse in WotLK with how they're combining all the stats together. That's probably why they're adding odd talents like warlocks having a talent that works off spirit... to pretty much force you to use these new items that are built to work with any class. It's why in the expansion, they gave shamans a stupid talent that gives us attack power per intellect... but it still becomes useless when you think of how much you get. It's like giving mages armor based on their intellect.
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