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The AMD Mantle Thread

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So Oxide its gona release a engine that only runs on Mantle? thats the question because 300% on mantle means it will be unplayable on DX.

What i can take from that is that in order to fully use Mantle, DX must be dropped.
 
Shivansps said:
So Oxide its gona release a engine that only runs on Mantle? thats the question because 300% on mantle means it will be unplayable on DX.

What i can take from that is that in order to fully use Mantle, DX must be dropped.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc

The Nitrous engine was developed from start for DX, they added Mantle support later on, which took that guy alone about 2 months (this doesn't include optimizations, just making it work).

For example. If Mantle can do 6k units on screen on, DX can do 2k. That doesn't mean it's not playable on DX. You just can't have the same scale with DX like you can have with Mantle.

And remember, it's an engine demo, not a game.
 
Shivansps said:
So Oxide its gona release a engine that only runs on Mantle? thats the question because 300% on mantle means it will be unplayable on DX.

What i can take from that is that in order to fully use Mantle, DX must be dropped.
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Epic fail.So who is going to buy games of that company.If do that than not even 5% user will purchase the game.They are not stupid it is just marketing.
 
Shivansps said:
So Oxide its gona release a engine that only runs on Mantle? thats the question because 300% on mantle means it will be unplayable on DX.

What i can take from that is that in order to fully use Mantle, DX must be dropped.
Click to expand...

Remember this huge difference only exist for rts where you are drawcall limited. Dx is severely limited here.

But the difference is probably going to be even higher when they start to know mantle. A difference of 500-1000% is perhaps the most realistic in a year or 2 and even bigger in 3 years if they directly build the engine to take use of eg. the better multicore scaling in mantle.

But those 1000% difference whatever is easily used in a rts game making eg. your armies bigger or with more individual control of the units. I can see this used besides dx.

But the difference is going to big - yes - but thats the nature of it. It is fundamental gamechanger for the rts genre. But we need those new games for it to develop.
 
krumme said:
Remember this huge difference only exist for rts where you are drawcall limited. Dx is severely limited here.

But the difference is probably going to be even higher when they start to know mantle. A difference of 500-1000% is perhaps the most realistic in a year or 2 and even bigger in 3 years if they directly build the engine to take use of eg. the better multicore scaling in mantle.

But those 1000% difference whatever is easily used in a rts game making eg. your armies bigger or with more individual control of the units. I can see this used besides dx.

But the difference is going to big - yes - but thats the nature of it. It is fundamental gamechanger for the rts genre. But we need those new games for it to develop.
Click to expand...

I know that, but the thing is, you gona be limited if you still need to support DX, thats the main problem, in order to fully use mantle by definition you need to make a game that will be unplayable on DX.
 
Shivansps said:
I know that, but the thing is, you gona be limited if you still need to support DX, thats the main problem, in order to fully use mantle by definition you need to make a game that will be unplayable on DX.
Click to expand...

I agree there is a challenge here for the devs. They can make unique games using a low level api like Mantle that is simply not possible on dx.

But i dont know if its any different from the challenge on the low level apu side where perhaps quad core kabini and temash will be able to play the new plants vs zoombies in all its glory at full speed while a bt driven machine will just be more like bad.

I think thats perhaps a bigger problem for the studios. The few rts gamer freaks will just buy a card that can run the low level api eg mantle and cgn. But the family just dont change their cheap notebook to play a game. Its wasted game sale. But on the upside there will be a huge new apu market to play plants vs z. Johan says thats what dice is hoping for. And i am pretty sure thats why EA invested in engineering their new engine to mantle.
 
tonyfreak215 said:
AMD is not stuck at 5% marketshare forever! Marketshare changes!
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Exactly


There presentation numbers don't apply to every setup that's to be expected, but one thing's for sure, anyone using mantle is going to benefit, it's not going to make it worse.
 
Shivansps said:
I know that, but the thing is, you gona be limited if you still need to support DX, thats the main problem, in order to fully use mantle by definition you need to make a game that will be unplayable on DX.
Click to expand...

This may be where the consoles come in, if it turns out they can't do something on DX on the PC. But they can do it on consoles and mantle. They may just make it for those platforms, or make a cut down version for DX, using an algorithm to cut down on what you attempt to draw on screen.

The good thing about mantle is it should allow for anything that is made on a different platform to be ported to mantle and have good performance, and depending what platform it was ported from could be better performance.
 
What also could be interesting is patching mantle into open source games. Along with hobbyist and students working on some interesting projects.
 
Paul98 said:
This may be where the consoles come in, if it turns out they can't do something on DX on the PC. But they can do it on consoles and mantle. They may just make it for those platforms, or make a cut down version for DX, using an algorithm to cut down on what you attempt to draw on screen.

The good thing about mantle is it should allow for anything that is made on a different platform to be ported to mantle and have good performance, and depending what platform it was ported from could be better performance.
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RTS's aren't exactly a console genre. A mouse really is needed for RTS's. Are there any at all on consoles? I really don't recall ever seeing one.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc

Oxide games' Dan Baker says it took him 2 months to implement. Just him.

I would imagine it took the entire engine team at DICE longer because they were actually making the API. Seems like it won't be that hard to get working in engines after the get the Alpha and Beta API done and push for the release version of it.
 
krumme said:
I agree there is a challenge here for the devs. They can make unique games using a low level api like Mantle that is simply not possible on dx.

But i dont know if its any different from the challenge on the low level apu side where perhaps quad core kabini and temash will be able to play the new plants vs zoombies in all its glory at full speed while a bt driven machine will just be more like bad.

I think thats perhaps a bigger problem for the studios. The few rts gamer freaks will just buy a card that can run the low level api eg mantle and cgn. But the family just dont change their cheap notebook to play a game. Its wasted game sale. But on the upside there will be a huge new apu market to play plants vs z. Johan says thats what dice is hoping for. And i am pretty sure thats why EA invested in engineering their new engine to mantle.
Click to expand...

Its more like a roadblock than a challenge, at the end of the day you figure out that you have to do 2 games in parallel, one in a cpu limited enviroment under DX and other for mantle where you can do a lot more.

How many devs whould choose for doing the game as DX primary and them add Mantle implementation where CPU requeriments will be lower but the endgame will the same? That to me is not a big deal after all. Now a game with mantle as primary could yield very good results, THATs good, but when you realise that you could only sell that game to GCN radeon users things fell apart.
 
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Shivansps said:
Its more like a roadblock than a challenge, at the end of the day you figure out that you have to do 2 games in parallel, one in a cpu limited enviroment under DX and other for mantle where you can do a lot more.

How many devs whould choose for doing the game as DX primary and them add Mantle implementation where CPU requeriments will be lower but the endgame will the same? That to me is not a big deal after all. Now a game with mantle as primary could yield very good results, THATs good, but when you realise that you could only sell that game to GCN radeon users things fell apart.
Click to expand...

Imo, keeping visual parity between DX and Mantle makes more sense for the studios. High-end Nvidia hardware would still be good enough for the high settings in DX11, whereas Mantle could allow low-end PCs with GCN to pass the minimum requirements (in a couple of years, the GCN market can be substantial).

For a big showcase like BF4, I would expect some GCN-features only however.
 
VulgarDisplay said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yak25TKCCrc

Oxide games' Dan Baker says it took him 2 months to implement. Just him.

I would imagine it took the entire engine team at DICE longer because they were actually making the API. Seems like it won't be that hard to get working in engines after the get the Alpha and Beta API done and push for the release version of it.
Click to expand...
It may also be that they didn't go as low level as Dice did. From my understanding, Mantle does have high level features as well as close to the metal features. If you stick with the high level features, it is easier to use.
 
Shivansps said:
Its more like a roadblock than a challenge, at the end of the day you figure out that you have to do 2 games in parallel, one in a cpu limited enviroment under DX and other for mantle where you can do a lot more.

How many devs whould choose for doing the game as DX primary and them add Mantle implementation where CPU requeriments will be lower but the endgame will the same? That to me is not a big deal after all. Now a game with mantle as primary could yield very good results, THATs good, but when you realise that you could only sell that game to GCN radeon users things fell apart.
Click to expand...

There is the possibility as Paul98 wrote, that the consoles could drive new games and thereby we could end in a low api only solution for a game. Consoles and cgn is a huge market. And if you make a game that is just superior to the other games, people will buy it, and here the consoles plus cgn could be plenty. We have to see this not as a war between dx and mantle, but more as a way for the gaming market to outmaneuver the others and create compettitive advantages.

The question is, what game uses a low level api to the degree where dx is not viable. Well the obvious answer is ofcource rts and as said, rts is not a big console market.

But after Paul98 wrote it, it made me wonder if rts really is the only scenario where it could happen? Or if rts could never be a success at consoles? As it is now, yes, but what happens in a year or 2 with the new consoles. Looking at the oxide demo i think there is an opportunity for types of games we have not yet seen.

The situation is new. Consoles and PC is now very much alike unlike before. They can be treated as the same market. Normally when we have a new situation new solutions tend to arive after some time. We dont get more of the same, we get something new. But we will have to wait a year or two to see if something radically new pops up 🙂
 
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Shivansps said:
I know that, but the thing is, you gona be limited if you still need to support DX, thats the main problem, in order to fully use mantle by definition you need to make a game that will be unplayable on DX.
Click to expand...

Thus the reason some people are (prematurely I might add) saying DX is dead. In 2 to 3 years we'll know what Mantle's effect on the market is. In order for it to even be considered possible to kill DX, Mantle will have to make appreciable improvements across the board. More than the improved fps and visual performance we've been promised, it'll have to improve the business end as well. Imagine if it took 1yr instead of 3yr to make an AAA game. That would make it catch on a lot faster than any improvement from the consumer's side. It would also have to be run by an independent group consisting of the "main players" in the industry. Possibly, AMD, nVidia, Intel, M$ as prime members with maybe (just speculating here) some game devs and/or industry experts that are elected/appointed/approved by the main members. Then it could become a standard that everyone could live with. Instead of one company dictating while all of the other players are forced to accept it.
 
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