The AMD Mantle Thread

[Paul98]

so the Oxide engine which was built for Mantle runs poorly in DX mode? QUELLE SUPRISE!

It was written for DX11 taking advantage of what DX11 can do, they then ported to mantle. I wonder if that has any mantle GPU optimizations yet. When they showed it off it was only CPU optimizations.

So no it wasn't built for mantle, it was built with DX11 long before mantle was announced.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Back on topic AMD delivered on frame pacing, late, but they delivered. It took nearly a year of complaining but at least they responded and have never to my knowledge 'cheated'. I reckon Mantle will make a big difference but Nvidia will counter in dozens of ways. Software and how easy it is to code games has been an issue for several years so anything that unifies coding for similar architectures in any way is beneficial. Ideally all software could be open source so Mantle, Gsync and Dx could all get on well but until then......

AMD hasn't fixed anything...they do PER GAME framepacing hotfixes...that is not a fix...that is band-aid.

 

[dacostafilipe]

AMD hasn't fixed anything...they do PER GAME framepacing hotfixes...that is not a fix...that is band-aid.

Please, stop spreading fud. 🙄

Yes, it's not perfect (not working for OpenGL, D3D9, Eyefinity) and yes it should never happend in the first place.

But they fixed one part of the problem. Now let's wait for the second phase ...

 

[Lonbjerg]

Please, stop spreading fud. 🙄

Yes, it's not perfect (not working for OpenGL, D3D9, Eyefinity) and yes it should never happend in the first place.

But they fixed one part of the problem. Now let's wait for the second phase ...

So they fixed...or they didn't?
Since they need a second "Phase" the answer must be: NO.

And here is documentation for my "FUD":
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx

Improves frame pacing r​esults in AMD Quad CrossFire™ configurations for the following: Hitman: Absolution, and Total War™​: Rome 2

PER game hotfixes!!!

Like I stated.

Prove me wrong ^^

 

[Spjut]

If Kaveri even comes remotely close to 45% better performance with Mantle than DX11, it could be great for providing cheap and capable Steam Machines

 

[dacostafilipe]

So they fixed...or they didn't?

They did, but not for all cards. What's not clear

Since they need a second "Phase" the answer must be: NO.

And here is documentation for my "FUD":
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx
PER game hotfixes!!!

Like I stated.

Prove me wrong ^^

D:

Look, you said "AMD hasn't fixed anything", and that's wrong. Just look anands review and you know that they fixed a part of the problem. I did not say they fixed everything ...

"Improves frame pacing" != "Enables frame pacing" ... 😵

 

[blackened23]

Just to correct you, i'm not sure if you're referring to the 290 series or the older cards. But, with the 79xx cards and prior, frame pacing is certainly not "fixed". It is still broken in crossfire DX9. It is also broken in eyefinity with crossfire. AMD managed to "Fix" it with the 290 series, but didn't fix it yet with the older cards. They state that they will fix it this month. Yet by the same token, keep in mind that this bug has existed for nearly 2.5 years. That certainly doesn't give you confidence in AMD's software team, does it? Especially since their competitor had this same issue solved 4-5 years ago with the elimination of nearly all microstutter.

I also am under the impression that crossfire will not work simultaneously with Mantle. I do remember reading that somewhere. That COULD be a good thing in AMD's case given their poor software support, but if anyone could clarify whether CF works with Mantle, that would be great.

I'm quite sure that I read that Mantle will be single GPU only. I could be wrong though.

 

[TerryMathews]

So they fixed...or they didn't?
Since they need a second "Phase" the answer must be: NO.

And here is documentation for my "FUD":
http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx
PER game hotfixes!!!

Like I stated.

Prove me wrong ^^

Did you overlook the word "quad"?

 

[dacostafilipe]

Just to correct you, i'm not sure if you're referring to the 290 series or the older cards. But, with the 79xx cards and prior, frame pacing is certainly not "fixed". It is still broken in crossfire DX9. It is also broken in eyefinity with crossfire. AMD managed to "Fix" it with the 290 series, but didn't fix it yet with the older cards. They state that they will fix it this month. Yet by the same token, keep in mind that this bug has existed for nearly 2.5 years. That certainly doesn't give you confidence in AMD's software team, does it? Especially since their competitor had this same issue solved 4-5 years ago with the elimination of nearly all microstutter.

I also am under the impression that crossfire will not work simultaneously with Mantle. I do remember reading that somewhere. That COULD be a good thing in AMD's case given their poor software support, but if anyone could clarify whether CF works with Mantle, that would be great.

I'm quite sure that I read that Mantle will be single GPU only. I could be wrong though.

Yes you are right, and I also wrote it in my first answer, just have a look:

Yes, it's not perfect (not working for OpenGL, D3D9, Eyefinity) and yes it should never happend in the first place.

For Mantle, if I remember well, AMD said something about not having support for multiple cards at the beginning.

Mantle does support multiple cards (that's official), but I think it will support it in an other way, not like actual CF configurations. The 3D Engines will handles the cards and not the driver.

 

[Lonbjerg]

D:

Look, you said "AMD hasn't fixed anything", and that's wrong. Just look anands review and you know that they fixed a part of the problem. I did not say they fixed everything ...

Saying that is just false:

Here is what I wrote:

AMD hasn't fixed anything...they do PER GAME framepacing hotfixes...that is not a fix...that is band-aid.

 

[frozentundra123456]

If Kaveri even comes remotely close to 45% better performance with Mantle than DX11, it could be great for providing cheap and capable Steam Machines

Except for the vast majority of games that don't support mantle. How many games using mantle have a firm release date in 2014? Maybe 5, 10 at the most out of the huge number of legacy games and upcoming games that won't support it?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Except for the vast majority of games that don't support mantle. How many games using mantle have a firm release date in 2014? Maybe 5, 10 at the most out of the huge number of legacy games and upcoming games that won't support it?

I think this is a case of quality over quanity. There are a lot of games released every year, but I don't buy more than 5 of them.

If it's in the right 5 games that would be far better than 100 trash games.

 

[Spjut]

Except for the vast majority of games that don't support mantle. How many games using mantle have a firm release date in 2014? Maybe 5, 10 at the most out of the huge number of legacy games and upcoming games that won't support it?

Right now yes, but the situation may change.
Everything upcoming from AMD will use the GCN architecture, and if Mantle allows the studios to target the userbase using low-end APUs/GPUs, that could make studios use Mantle.

You must also remember that most games use a licensed engine nowadays, so if Mantle were to be supported in the UE4, that would guarantee support for many games.

And regarding Steam Machines, most "legacy games" won't be supported on it anyway.

 

[Skurge]

Please don't derail the thread. If you have nothing mantle related to talk about go to another thread. I am enjoying a lot of the posts here and I don't the thread locked again. That said.

The slides are from a Kaveri presentation. So they obviously will not say much about mantle. January should be the month all is revealed. BF4 and the oxide demo. I think a lot of other devs are also just waiting to see how this goes. If 45% is the max. I definatly see the average being around 30%. Which is Massive at the moment.

Although that 45% is with kaveri, so with a dGPU and a high end CPU who knows. It could be more or less.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Right now yes, but the situation may change.
Everything upcoming from AMD will use the GCN architecture, and if Mantle allows the studios to target the userbase using low-end APUs/GPUs, that could make studios use Mantle.

You must also remember that most games use a licensed engine nowadays, so if Mantle were to be supported in the UE4, that would guarantee support for many games.

And regarding Steam Machines, most "legacy games" won't be supported on it anyway.

By "legacy games" I mean any game released up until the present time, because none of them support mantle. Don't want to get into steam OS, but I thought it would have some way of playing Dx games. Anyway, steam os is beside the point. It doesn't change the fact that only a very small percentage of games even in the coming year will support mantle, and only a small proportion of the graphics hardware will be able to use mantle to play that proportion of games.

And yes, that could change, but no one knows when or by how much.

 

[ultimatebob]

So 45% best case.

I can't wait to see the first set of benchmarks from a reliable site when this finally gets released. If it's anywhere near 45%, I'd be amazed.

I like AMD as much as the next guy, but this slide got my BS alarm ringing.

 

[dacostafilipe]

Here is what I wrote: : AMD hasn't fixed anything

Yep, and it's still wrong ...

I'm done with the OT, sorry for that guys.

 

[3DVagabond]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Fed and US taxpayers bailing out the US banks was the biggest incidence of babying a market in all of human
history. They socialised the debt but maintained private the profits.
I guess as an American that's an inconvenient truth best ignored like so many others.
I reckon 15-40% in games with mantle when it decides to show up.
P.S. Don't get me wrong I like Americans I just don't like it when people rewrite history.

He's been suspended for being a knob. Don't waste your time. 😉

This "up to 45%" has my interest.
Is it up to 45% on APU's, where there's more of a chance for relieving the CPU bottleneck?
Is it up to 45% with Hawaii or Pitcairn, or both, neither?
Is it up to 45% in BF4?
Is it up to 45% in something like the Oxide demo?

So, what are they going to use Mantle for in the games?
Are they just going to use it to make their cards "up to 45%" faster?
Are they going to use it to make games "up to 45%" better? And if they do will it make them run like total crap on non Mantle hardware?
Are there going to be higher IQ settings than what we have now to take advantage of Mantle? Or will we simply crank the aa and sit there impressed?

I understand not wanting to say too much too soon, but I think that by now they'd be better off talking more than they are.

 

[Lonbjerg]

He's been suspended for being a knob. Don't waste your time. 😉

This "up to 45%" has my interest.
Is it up to 45% on APU's, where there's more of a chance for relieving the CPU bottleneck?
Is it up to 45% with Hawaii or Pitcairn, or both, neither?
Is it up to 45% in BF4?
Is it up to 45% in something like the Oxide demo?

So, what are they going to use Mantle for in the games?
Are they just going to use it to make their cards "up to 45%" faster?
Are they going to use it to make games "up to 45%" better? And if they do will it make them run like total crap on non Mantle hardware?
Are there going to be higher IQ settings than what we have now to take advantage of Mantle? Or will we simply crank the aa and sit there impressed?

I understand not wanting to say too much too soon, but I think that by now they'd be better off talking more than they are.

If it's anything like driver statements is could mean 2 vs 3 FPS at some stupid settings...aka useless in the real world.

 

[Noctifer616]

He's been suspended for being a knob. Don't waste your time. 😉

This "up to 45%" has my interest.
Is it up to 45% on APU's, where there's more of a chance for relieving the CPU bottleneck?
Is it up to 45% with Hawaii or Pitcairn, or both, neither?
Is it up to 45% in BF4?
Is it up to 45% in something like the Oxide demo?

Good questions. Considering that the entire CES AMD event was focused on the new APU, those Mantle numbers could be based on the APU performance.

I guess we will know more later this month. Both the Oxide demo and BF4 Mantle patch should be out.

Some think that BF4 Mantle patch will come out on Jan 14th cause that is the end of the embargo for yesterdays event. Will see I guess.

 

[Keysplayr]

He's been suspended for being a knob. Don't waste your time. 😉

This "up to 45%" has my interest.
Is it up to 45% on APU's, where there's more of a chance for relieving the CPU bottleneck?
Is it up to 45% with Hawaii or Pitcairn, or both, neither?
Is it up to 45% in BF4?
Is it up to 45% in something like the Oxide demo?

So, what are they going to use Mantle for in the games?
Are they just going to use it to make their cards "up to 45%" faster?
Are they going to use it to make games "up to 45%" better? And if they do will it make them run like total crap on non Mantle hardware?
Are there going to be higher IQ settings than what we have now to take advantage of Mantle? Or will we simply crank the aa and sit there impressed?

I understand not wanting to say too much too soon, but I think that by now they'd be better off talking more than they are.

My guess is that they spiked to a 45% improvement momentarily in one area of one map for a brief moment. This legally permits them to say UP TO 45% and they would not be lying. Deceitful? Yes. Lying? No. My money is on that scenario.

 

[blackened23]

My guess is that they spiked to a 45% improvement momentarily in one area of one map for a brief moment. This legally permits them to say UP TO 45% and they would not be lying. Deceitful? Yes. Lying? No. My money is on that scenario.

IMO: When has an AMD marketing slide ever had a basis in reality. I'd say take the marketing slide, and expect 25-50% of the claim if that. Bottom line is marketing fluff is just that. Fluff. When benchmarks are out for Mantle BF4? Wake me up then. I'm sick of seeing the marketing garbage for Mantle. Yawn.

Bulldozer sure had some awesome powerpoints though! Reading through those stupid things made one think that they had a sandy bridge killer coming. Remember that pre-hype? LITTLE DID WE KNOW. Whoever makes powerpoints for AMD has to be the most talented liar employed by AMD.

 

[3DVagabond]

so the Oxide engine which was built for Mantle runs poorly in DX mode? QUELLE SUPRISE!

No, the Oxide engine was not built for Mantle. Have you not seen any of the source material? Mantle was added to the engine. That was a fairly big deal in the presentations, how easy it was and how little work it was to add it in.

 

[Lonbjerg]

IMO: When has an AMD marketing slide ever had a basis in reality. I'd say take the marketing slide, and expect 25-50% of the claim if that. Bottom line is marketing fluff is just that. Fluff. When benchmarks are out for Mantle BF4? Wake me up then. I'm sick of seeing the marketing garbage for Mantle. Yawn.

Bulldozer sure had some awesome powerpoints though! Reading through those stupid things made one think that they had a sandy bridge killer coming. Remember that pre-hype? LITTLE DID WE KNOW. Whoever makes powerpoints for AMD has to be the most talented liar employed by AMD.

It goes even further back...remeber AMD's "conroe-killer"?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/amd-k8l.html

AMD's PR has always been..."hyperbole"...

 

[3DVagabond]

AMD hasn't fixed anything...they do PER GAME framepacing hotfixes...that is not a fix...that is band-aid.

Since crossfire w/eyefinity works on Hawaii and not on prior chips, it would make sense that they did fix something. They have done a software fix for the older GCN chips, which is probably all that can be done.