The AMD Mantle Thread

[Carfax83]

did you actually read the summary or watch the videos?

Did you actually read what I said?

The API that the Xbox One uses although similar in features to the Direct3D version, is not the same.

It's a low level API with greatly reduced overhead, so it's comparable to Mantle in that respect. That's what Microsoft wants to implement in the Windows version.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Did you actually read what I said?

The API that the Xbox One uses although similar in features to the Direct3D version, is not the same.

It's a low level API with greatly reduced overhead, so it's comparable to Mantle in that respect. That's what Microsoft wants to implement in the Windows version.

It should work well to give low level access Microsoft's CPUs and GPUs that everyone is using.

Microsoft can improve DX but I doubt they can reduce overhead to the level amd will be able to with mantle.

 

[Noctifer616]

Did you actually read what I said?

The API that the Xbox One uses although similar in features to the Direct3D version, is not the same.

It's a low level API with greatly reduced overhead, so it's comparable to Mantle in that respect. That's what Microsoft wants to implement in the Windows version.

If it's a low level API than MS can't implement it to work on PC's without AMD and NVidia help.

Low level API implementation require extensive hardware knowledge, AMD and NVidia don't just give away that stuff.

And the question is, why would MS even bother with a new API? DX has been slow for ages, the console market is a bigger pie for them than the PC one. Is it really worth for them to go and make a new API?

 

[GaiaHunter]

I'll give you the cpu, but what performance figures have you seen for direct GPU increases?

It seems to me the small batch problem is the big problem at the moment.

Once that is removed a whole host of techniques will be able to emerge that simply couldn't emerge while the batch commands were so restricted.

The biggest visible aspect of mantle on GPU memory at the moment seems to be memory management, allowing resources to kept for future use or the be prepared way in advance. Higher degree of control of the commands queue should also allow much better performance.

 

[Carfax83]

If it's a low level API than MS can't implement it to work on PC's without AMD and NVidia help.

Microsoft has been working with IHVs for years when it comes to DirectX so that shouldn't be a problem.

Low level API implementation require extensive hardware knowledge, AMD and NVidia don't just give away that stuff.

When I said low level API, I don't necessarily mean like a console. I mean, lower level than current DirectX. Mantle is somewhere between DirectX and the low level APIs found in consoles. Obviously to retain a degree of abstraction, it can't be too focused.

If Microsoft does make a lower level API than current DirectX, then I would expect it to be similar to Mantle.....which still allows for abstraction.

And the question is, why would MS even bother with a new API? DX has been slow for ages, the console market is a bigger pie for them than the PC one. Is it really worth for them to go and make a new API?

Because PC gaming has been growing, and will continue to grow. The PC gaming market is not to be sniffed at.

 

[Carfax83]

Microsoft can improve DX but I doubt they can reduce overhead to the level amd will be able to with mantle.

Mantle still allows for abstraction apparently, so it's not as low level as a console. Microsoft also has more experience with this sort of thing than AMD, so I'm sure they can pull it off.

 

[cytg111]

Allrighty. Mantle.

Mantle will surely shine more on an huma-hsa-APU than on a regular setup with descrete graphics radeon - or otherwise. Right? What kind of "low level" optimizations would Mantle provide that is today not allready feasable with, say, directx?
Mantle must be all about the shared memory space and an API build on top of it, otherwise i've completly missed the point.
Getting nvidia and co on board mantle? makes no friggin sense, they dont have the product.
My bet is that AMD is trying to lock down the gaming segment for the next 10 years.. Will it play out? Dunno. Problary not, lotsa big $$ players involved.

 

[OCGuy]

yep I'm getting the same feel. mantle is an APU product.the problem is at that point they're going up against intel not nv.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Allrighty. Mantle.

Mantle will surely shine more on an huma-hsa-APU than on a regular setup with descrete graphics radeon - or otherwise. Right? What kind of "low level" optimizations would Mantle provide that is today not allready feasable with, say, directx?
Mantle must be all about the shared memory space and an API build on top of it, otherwise i've completly missed the point.
Getting nvidia and co on board mantle? makes no friggin sense, they dont have the product.
My bet is that AMD is trying to lock down the gaming segment for the next 10 years.. Will it play out? Dunno. Problary not, lotsa big $$ players involved.

That is the big question. Apus are usually bandwidth limited. One would assume that hsa/huma/mantle would help alleviate this problem, but in all the publicity, no one has directly addressed this as far as I know. All the talk has been about increasing draw calls, but I don't know how this relates if you are bandwidth limited.

 

[Gloomy]

Mantle still allows for abstraction apparently, so it's not as low level as a console. Microsoft also has more experience with this sort of thing than AMD, so I'm sure they can pull it off.

...you think Microsoft has more experience with GPUs than a company that makes and programs GPUs?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

yep I'm getting the same feel. mantle is an APU product.the problem is at that point they're going up against intel not nv.

Why is that a problem? Intel isn't what I would call a dominant player in PC gaming on the GPU side. Amd stands a better chance against them in the gaming market than nvidia.

 

[Carfax83]

...you think Microsoft has more experience with GPUs than a company that makes and programs GPUs?

Mantle is an API, not a GPU.

 

[Enigmoid]

The whole question with mantle and draw calls is how much does doubling draw calls increase performance? Is performance generally draw call limited?

Someone correct me but in BF3 singleplayer it is possible to hit the 200 fps cap on the game fairly easily assuming you have enough GPU power. In MP however, framerates are a lot lower and quite often CPU bound. This is not because of draw calls but because of other game processes (tasks to keep a 64 person match running properly). Decreasing draw call overhead would have a minimal effect on performance then.

 

[OCGuy]

Why is that a problem? Intel isn't what I would call a dominant player in PC gaming on the GPU side. Amd stands a better chance against them in the gaming market than nvidia.

Huh?

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Huh?

Read what I quoted.

Amd's apus perform very well in games compared to Intel. Especially when you look at the same price point. Amd is mantle update and possibly a memory bandwidth update away from making themselves the only option in the low end/small form factor PC gaming market. Intel and nvidia both should be very worried about how well the upcoming kaveri apus and mantle work together. If they do work well together that is.

I wonder if the death of the gddr5 on an apu for PC rumor is because Microsoft and Sony have some sort of exclusivity deal in place that only allows them to use them. Imagine if youcould buy the ps4 chip and build your own htpc with it. It would sell like crazy at the right price.

 

[desprado]

Why is that a problem? Intel isn't what I would call a dominant player in PC gaming on the GPU side. Amd stands a better chance against them in the gaming market than nvidia.

Lol joke of the year.Can u post figures plz if cannot than just dont post this nonsense or u want to make people laugh.

 

[desprado]

Read what I quoted.

Amd's apus perform very well in games compared to Intel. Especially when you look at the same price point. Amd is mantle update and possibly a memory bandwidth update away from making themselves the only option in the low end/small form factor PC gaming market. Intel and nvidia both should be very worried about how well the upcoming kaveri apus and mantle work together. If they do work well together that is.

I wonder if the death of the gddr5 on an apu for PC rumor is because Microsoft and Sony have some sort of exclusivity deal in place that only allows them to use them. Imagine if youcould buy the ps4 chip and build your own htpc with it. It would sell like crazy at the right price.

U want to talk about console than ok
PS4 barely running bf4 on 60 fps on 900p(High settings,no HABO, 2x MSAA)
i have 7850 for buckup and runs battlefield 4 60fps on 1080p with same settings and even fps goes above 70 sometime.

 

[selni]

targeting end of December now for mantle on BF4? those new slides do not sound as confident as the Hawaii presentation

Given the state of BF4 on release it's not too surprising and the delays may just be due to having to actually make the game work. Not sure if the crashing caught DICE off guard or they knew it was such a buggy release, but they have far bigger issues with BF4 than finishing mantle currently.

 

[bystander36]

Read what I quoted.

Amd's apus perform very well in games compared to Intel. Especially when you look at the same price point. Amd is mantle update and possibly a memory bandwidth update away from making themselves the only option in the low end/small form factor PC gaming market. Intel and nvidia both should be very worried about how well the upcoming kaveri apus and mantle work together. If they do work well together that is.

I wonder if the death of the gddr5 on an apu for PC rumor is because Microsoft and Sony have some sort of exclusivity deal in place that only allows them to use them. Imagine if youcould buy the ps4 chip and build your own htpc with it. It would sell like crazy at the right price.

Intel does ok with their Iris Pro. It just isn't widely available yet. It is mostly an Apple thing, but we can expect that should change eventually.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/9

 

[selni]

The whole question with mantle and draw calls is how much does doubling draw calls increase performance? Is performance generally draw call limited?

Someone correct me but in BF3 singleplayer it is possible to hit the 200 fps cap on the game fairly easily assuming you have enough GPU power. In MP however, framerates are a lot lower and quite often CPU bound. This is not because of draw calls but because of other game processes (tasks to keep a 64 person match running properly). Decreasing draw call overhead would have a minimal effect on performance then.

it sounds like it's more that game design itself is working around draw calls being slow (ie you can't have more than X units, Y objects in the background etc or performance would be unacceptable on their target hardware). That's the sort of thing that would seem like it couldn't be fixed without making games mantle exclusive though.

 

[bystander36]

it sounds like it's more that game design itself is working around draw calls being slow (ie you can't have more than X units, Y objects in the background etc or performance would be unacceptable on their target hardware). That's the sort of thing that would seem like it couldn't be fixed without making games mantle exclusive though.

The difference may be that non-Mantle users will hit minimums that are much lower than Mantle users, but they also won't likely go to the extremes as the demo are doing, as you are right, they need to be able to support all users.

 

[monstercameron]

Intel does ok with their Iris Pro. It just isn't widely available yet. It is mostly an Apple thing, but we can expect that should change eventually.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/9

here is the context

Amd's apus perform very well in games compared to Intel. Especially when you look at the same price point.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

here is the context

At least you found one of the many caveats in what I was saying. Iris pro is like $600 minimum isn't it?

Like I said, AMD would leave intel in the dust if they solved memory bandwidth and got mantle usage widespread. They would eat up all the low end PC gaming market.

 

[blackened23]

Intel does ok with their Iris Pro. It just isn't widely available yet. It is mostly an Apple thing, but we can expect that should change eventually.

The biggest issue with Iris Pro isn't availability, it is cost. It really isn't more cost effective to use over a discrete GT750M..... as far as AMD APUs go, I don't even put those in the same category as the 750M and Iris Pro.

Most of those chips are LGA and the mobile versions are cut down so much and don't perform nearly as well. I mean look at the chart posted above - the A10-5800K is a LGA desktop part . I don't think AMD has any APU that is in the same ballpark in terms of BOTH performance and power use for mobile. Iris Pro is designed for mobile, and these A10 chips aren't. So it's pretty stupid to even compare them.

So this begs the question: which mobile APU fits in the same power budget as the Iris Pro and performs the same? Not a single one. Then again, you could point at the price tag of the Iris Pro which is the reason it performs so much better than AMD's mobile APUs. The only one comparable in terms of performance is an LGA desktop part. Unless the argument is that Mantle is the performance equalizer for AMD APU's to bring them to parity with the GT750M or Iris Pro for mobile gaming. I dunno. Seems like a long shot and I doubt it, but i'll hold judgement until Mantle is here.

 

[tential]

The biggest issue with Iris Pro isn't availability, it is cost. It really isn't more cost effective to use over a discrete GT750M..... as far as AMD APUs go, I don't even put those in the same category as the 750M and Iris Pro.

Most of those chips are LGA and the mobile versions are cut down so much and don't perform nearly as well. I mean look at the chart posted above - the A10-5800K is a LGA desktop part . I don't think AMD has any APU that is in the same ballpark in terms of BOTH performance and power use for mobile. Iris Pro is designed for mobile, and these A10 chips aren't. So it's pretty stupid to even compare them.

So this begs the question: which mobile APU fits in the same power budget as the Iris Pro and performs the same? Not a single one. Then again, you could point at the price tag of the Iris Pro which is the reason it performs so much better than AMD's mobile APUs. The only one comparable in terms of performance is an LGA desktop part. Unless the argument is that Mantle is the performance equalizer for AMD APU's to bring them to parity with the GT750M or Iris Pro for mobile gaming. I dunno. Seems like a long shot and I doubt it, but i'll hold judgement until Mantle is here.

Or, the reason Iris Pro costs so much could be that there isn't a competitor that fits the same power envelope and performance.