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The AMD Mantle Thread

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Communism said:
Johan's keynote had him basically saying it outright, that when/if the games he listed get Mantle support, it will be implemented by the technical team at DICE.

That makes them DICE games to me.
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So you're saying that all of Oxide games with mantle will be added in by DICE? And Square Enix's too? And Star Citizen? How much time does DICE's team have?

They already have a driver in alpha apparently.
 
Communism said:
Johan's keynote had him basically saying it outright, that when/if the games he listed get Mantle support, it will be implemented by the technical team at DICE.

That makes them DICE games to me.
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It won't be implemented by the DICE team, it will work out of the box with Frostbite 3.
 
DarkKnightDude said:
So you're saying that all of Oxide games with mantle will be added in by DICE? And Square Enix's too? And Star Citizen? How much time does DICE's team have?

They already have a driver in alpha apparently.
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Yes. Unless the specification is done (actually finished for release fully documented) by the time that the game comes out, that's the way it has to be, as DICE's technical team literally wrote (and is in the process of writing) most of it.

Noctifer616 said:
It won't be implemented by the DICE team, it will work out of the box with Frostbite 3.
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Johan specifies in the keynote that taking advantage of Mantle isn't as easy as that. You have to do more.
 
desprado said:
So here some people were thinking they could get full benefit mantle by using Intel CPU+AMD GPU but thank god AMD prove me right.There is no way AMD will pay there money for Intel benefits.Mantle full advantage will be from APU+AMD GPU.
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You said earlier that Mantle can't run on systems with a Intel CPU, it can. In fact, Mantle can even run on Intel and NVidia GPU's if they they want to add support to it.

So ye, you are wrong.
 
Noctifer616 said:
You said earlier that Mantle can't run on systems with a Intel CPU, it can. In fact, Mantle can even run on Intel and NVidia GPU's if they they want to add support to it.

So ye, you are wrong.
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If u can read my post again what i said is u cannot get full advantage of Mantle by using intel CPU.U can go twiter there explanation amd of APU how they remove bottleneck by using Mantle.AMD will never allow intel to take advantage from Mantle and why they will.What AMD clearly said that it remove CPU bottleneck.

So i am guessing is that AMD will pay hell of money so that Intel cpu run better on Mantle.
 
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desprado said:
So here some people were thinking they could get full benefit mantle by using Intel CPU+AMD GPU but thank god AMD prove me right.There is no way AMD will pay there money for Intel benefits.Mantle full advantage will be from APU+AMD GPU.
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Intel and AMD benefit equally, AMD just brought their x8 up to Intels x4, they're still using Intels x6 to show even greater potential with Mantle.
 
desprado said:
If u can read my post again what i said is u cannot get full advantage of Mantle by using intel CPU.U can go twiter there explanation amd of APU how they remove bottleneck by using Mantle.AMD will never allow intel to take advantage from Mantle and why they will.
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Running Mantle on a PC with a Intel i7 or a AMD FX CPU will give you the same performance. Running it on a APU will give you more performance because you have the APU's GPU and the dedicated graphics cards, so it's like running a R9 290X + a mobile 7750 (the GPU inside the Kaveri).

There is no Intel bottleneck inside Mantle.
 
Noctifer616 said:
Running Mantle on a PC with a Intel i7 or a AMD FX CPU will give you the same performance. Running it on a APU will give you more performance because you have the APU's GPU and the dedicated graphics cards, so it's like running a R9 290X + a mobile 7750 (the GPU inside the Kaveri).

There is no Intel bottleneck inside Mantle.
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Who said bottleneck.What i am saying Intle+AMD GPU of course performance will increase but not much as APU+AMD GPU this combination will get full advantage.
 
Noctifer616 said:
To what time should I forward to?
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The entire thing is him talking about it. It ain't the abridged version. He doesn't make many general statements in the entire thing. The parts you should look at is where he talks about implementing mantle into a game engine and also utilizing mantle based on the game you are designing. Starting at 09:45 is where he describes why you have to tailor it specifically to the game you are rendering. He says this in a very technical fashion though, so it's hard to understand.

Layman's oversimplification. Traditional APIs abstract lots of crap away from the developer. With Mantle you have to do everything yourself. This not only effects the design of the game engine, this effects the design of the game and optimization of the game even in the same engine. That's why he means by 'mostly' in twitter.
 
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Noctifer616 said:
Running Mantle on a PC with a Intel i7 or a AMD FX CPU will give you the same performance. Running it on a APU will give you more performance because you have the APU's GPU and the dedicated graphics cards, so it's like running a R9 290X + a mobile 7750 (the GPU inside the Kaveri).

There is no Intel bottleneck inside Mantle.
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I doubt that the performance will be the same (all else being equal) since Intel compiler cripples AMD performance in vector instructions. Mantle will definitely remedy that disadvantage and who knows, maybe AMD might even return the favor.
 
Communism said:
The entire thing is him talking about it. It ain't the abridged version. He doesn't make many general statements in the entire thing. The parts you should look at is where he talks about implementing mantle into a game engine and also utilizing mantle based on the game you are designing. Starting at 09:45 is where he describes why you have to tailor it specifically to the game you are rendering. He says this in a very technical fashion though, so it's hard to understand.
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So what exactly is the issue? DICE isn't going to implement Mantle support into every single game, the engine does that. The game developers simply have to then optimize the engine for their specific game.

It's not like the only coders at EA are in DICE, and all the other game studios making games have just artists and game designers.
 
Noctifer616 said:
So what exactly is the issue? DICE isn't going to implement Mantle support into every single game, the engine does that. The game developers simply have to then optimize the engine for their specific game.

It's not like the only coders at EA are in DICE, and all the other game studios making games have just artists and game designers.
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The other studios don't magically have Mantle experience. Literally no-one has Mantle experience except the Dice Technical Team. That's why they are doing the implementation. That's why they get it first. That's why the other companies have to wait for a fully documented and finalized Mantle standard. (Optimistic estimates for an Alpha is in 2014, Optimiztic estimates for a Beta is in 2015, with the actual specification likely to be finalized in or after 2015 [optimistically]).
 
The problem with Mantle isn't in what it can do, but who it can benefit.

The types of games you can create will be utterly unplayable on but a small fraction of the PC market.

Who other than those who are paid will benefit and who among them will actually design a game which pales considerably in comparison without Mantle?


I look to BF4 to explain and show exactly what we can expect, as it is now CPU just doesn't matter much in BF4. You can easily get 80+ fps with a i5, so unless BF4 is dynamically changed in the Mantle version with all kinds of clutter and distracting additions, or a larger server (128 player? 256 player?) the benefits of Mantle will be lost on me.
 
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BallaTheFeared said:
However it's pretty obvious the major benefit from Mantle is in draw call overhead reduction which is explicitly CPU related and indirectly GPU related.
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it doesn't do just that. if the oxide slides from a few pages back contain truth, then mantle also greatly simplifies gpu memory management by getting rid of all kinds of legacy buffers and types that have piled up over the course of history, making the whole memory a lot leaner to work with. there are probably some other benefits, too. point is, I don't think mantle can simply be reduced to draw call cost reduction, that is just a net effect of all the things mantle does/does away with.
 
Communism said:
The other studios don't magically have Mantle experience. Literally no-one has Mantle experience except the Dice Technical Team. That's why they are doing the implementation. That's why they get it first. That's why the other companies have to wait for a fully documented and finalized Mantle standard.
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So you are saying none of them have ever worked with low level API? They might not have experience with Mantle specifically, but low level API is nothing new, console games have been using them for a while.

And don't forget, BF4 is the only game that is going to have Mantle support soon. All the other games won't be coming till later.

Star Citizen isn't coming till late 2014 or maybe even 2015, by that time there should be a full Mantle SDK out.

Dragon Age Inquisition was also delayed to late 2014.

There wasn't even an announcement for the new Mass Effect, same for the new Star Wars game and Mirrors Edge.

Most games will Mantle support will come out in second half of 2014 or later.
 
Silverforce11 said:
Their game demo, screen filled with units. "Up to 3 times faster with Mantle". Sounds like a big deal. For RTS games its a massive lifting of the bottleneck.
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I'm betting on a massive improvement on the MMORPG genre in general and korean MMORPGs in particular. Those run badly whatever hardware you have and Mantle should alleviate the need of raw power. Too bad almost all of them rock an Unreal Engine and Mantle is likely to get there rather late.
 
Communism said:
The other studios don't magically have Mantle experience.
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Stop spouting nonsense.

It's already stated by several different developers they are supporting Mantle in their game engines.

It's just now stated by one dev, an example of 2 months work, to incorporate Mantle into their game engine.

So yeah, about that "DICE" only... really? You guys are still spouting that crap??
 
Noctifer616 said:
So you are saying none of them have ever worked with low level API? They might not have experience with Mantle specifically, but low level API is nothing new, console games have been using them for a while.

And don't forget, BF4 is the only game that is going to have Mantle support soon. All the other games won't be coming till later.

Star Citizen isn't coming till late 2014 or maybe even 2015, by that time there should be a full Mantle SDK out.

Dragon Age Inquisition was also delayed to late 2014.

There wasn't even an announcement for the new Mass Effect, same for the new Star Wars game and Mirrors Edge.

Most games will Mantle support will come out in second half of 2014 or later.
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4-6 posts of rhetorical questions so far. Onus was not on me a single time but I was nice enough to feed you information even though you were arguing from ignorance.


That's how this whole thread has been. I have been the sole source of hard logic this entire time and I made sure to even leave the thread for a week.

Not my job to figure EVERYTHING about mantle out for you guys.

But sure, bash me some more.

Side-note: Ignore list at 109 and growing at an exponential rate.
 
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Imouto said:
I'm betting on a massive improvement on the MMORPG genre in general and korean MMORPGs in particular. Those run badly whatever hardware you have and Mantle should alleviate the need of raw power. Too bad almost all of them rock an Unreal Engine and Mantle is likely to get there rather late.
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Yes PC RTS and MMOs will benefit the most, problem is GCN market share is just a fraction of the overall market.

So if you build an MMO around Mantle, you have a very tiny user base to extract money from. If you build it around DX9 (a joke, but that is where we are with DX9 hardware holding everything back), obtain poor performance, then also offer the same version, but with Mantle support and thus more performance what benefit is that to the game studio?

Mantle does what we need, but what we need is Mantle for all hardware, not just one fraction of the market. But that goes against what Mantle is, which is a hardware specific API. The reason it works so well for GCN is because it doesn't work for Intel or Nvidia, or 6xxx series or later. It is meant only for but a fraction of an overall market, what kind of penetration can we actually expect with such a grossly limited scope of market this benefits?
 
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