The AMD Mantle Thread

[ShintaiDK]

Mantle requires the same driver Xbox requires to access the same hardware.

PhysX doesn't run on the CPU without software. How can it run on the Xbox 360 without installing the same software? Are you telling me Microsoft supports PhysX?

Mantle wont run without a hardware driver to support it. Are you saying consoles ship with Mantle drivers that MS and Sony wrote? I dont think so. Its time you let go of Mantle and consoles, its just not happening.

PhysX can run on CPU only, meaning no driver support needed.

So, you didnt find the proclaimed driver I assume. Time to leave it there then.

 

[desprado]

Mantle requires a driver for direct hardware access. Else its not a low level API anymore.

Dear child got many names. Mislabel? Yes. They also call it system software.

Have you reached the conclusion yet that PhysX dont have any drivers when running on the CPU? Or are you still searching?

Yes and they have mention in there site to and if not than AMD is laying.Direct access for GCN 2.0 it means no HD 4xxx,5xxx,6xxx can use mantle.

 

[Noctifer616]

Mantle wont run without a hardware driver to support it. Are you saying consoles ship with Mantle drivers that MS and Sony wrote? I dont think so. Its time you let go of Mantle and consoles, its just not happening.

Even though I know we won't see Mantle in consoles, it was said in a interview that they don't know how exactly they will implement the Mantle driver yet. It could be shipped via the AMD drivers, or be part of the game itself.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Mantle wont run without a hardware driver to support it. Are you saying consoles ship with Mantle drivers that MS and Sony wrote? I dont think so. Its time you let go of Mantle and consoles, its just not happening.

PhysX can run on CPU only, meaning no driver support needed.

So, you didnt find the proclaimed driver I assume. Time to leave it there then.

CPU physX still requires software to run - without that software, which has an independent installer and creates the following structure, CPU physX can't run.

PhysX needs to run in the consoles. It does run in the consoles despite Microsoft DX not supporting it. It has to go inside the console somehow. That somehow is via the game engine.

Again, AMD doesn't need to have mantle in the consoles because the consoles are already optimized for AMD hardware.

But if the developers wanted, they could strap the Mantle SDK to their games engine just like they do with PhysX SDK.

Mantle is about porting what allows direct access to the GCN hardware in the consoles to the PC.

The driver that exists in the consoles already work with AMD hardware - it is a GCN driver.

Normally in the PC one couldn't do that because the games are written for DX that has to interact with AMD driver/hardware, Intel driver/hardware and NVIDIA driver/hardware.

But console games are now written and optimized for AMD hardware so that code that interacts directly with the GCN driver and APi in the consoles already exist.

 

[Keysplayr]

You very well know neither nVidia or AMD would ever admit it. Because it would be a PR disaster to tell people that they have to pay companies to use their failed technologies that they try what they can to make a decision checkbox when people buy hardware. And I assume as a focus member, its why you question it.

Focus and advocate members got conflict of interrest in these threads.

Hmmm. Shinta, my posts here have NOTHING to do with bias or anything. Actually completely unbiased of me to ask for PROOF. Do not try to turn this into a "you're biased, they're biased" discussion. There was NONE of that til you mentioned it. I'm going to have to ask you to start sourcing your claims otherwise you would be knowingly posting falsified information here. I know a member who was banned for doing such. Just saying. Play right or don't play. You are purposely ignoring things that people are trying to explain to you.
Some friendly advice.

 

[desprado]

Again, AMD doesn't need to have mantle in the consoles because the consoles are already optimized for AMD hardware.

Mantle is about porting what allows direct access to the GCN hardware in the consoles to the PC.

The driver that exists in the consoles already work with AMD hardware - it is a GCN driver.

Normally in the PC one couldn't do that because the games are written for DX that has to interact with AMD driver/hardware, Intel driver/hardware and NVIDIA driver/hardware.

But console games are now written and optimized for AMD hardware so that code that interacts directly with the GCN driver and APi in the consoles already exist.

Just like Xbox 360 which did not give any advantage what so ever in PC games to AMD and neither Nvidia get any advantage through PS3 and that is all [redacted].

And here some user are misguiding plz dont post if u dont now.Next gen games are all most all are being developed on PC than ported to console for example Call of duty ghost,BF4,Watch Dog,AC4,Witcher 3,thief,Dark souls 2,Evil within,dying light e.t.c.

Profanity isn't allowed in the technical forums.
-- stahlhart

 

[GaiaHunter]

Just like Xbox 360 which did not give any advantage what so ever in PC games to AMD and neither Nvidia get any advantage through PS3 and that is all [redacted].

And here some user are misguiding plz dont post if u dont now.Next gen games are all most all are being developed on PC than ported to console for example Call of duty ghost,BF4,Watch Dog,AC4,Witcher 3,thief,Dark souls 2,Evil within,dying light e.t.c.

Neither AMD or NVIDIA created a copy cat low level API based on the Xbox 360 and PS3 and strapped a PC driver to leverage the console architectures to the desktop architecture.

Of course the Xenos and the RSX were not the same architecture AMD and NVIDIA used for their Radeon HD 2000 and Geforce 8 series.

Multiplatform games are developed on PCs but using console tools.

 

[desprado]

Neither AMD or NVIDIA created a copy cat low level API based on the Xbox 360 and PS3 and strapped a PC driver to leverage the console architectures to the desktop architecture.

Of course the Xenos and the RSX were not the same architecture AMD and NVIDIA used for their Radeon HD 2000 and Geforce 8 series.

Multiplatform games are developed on PCs but using console tools.

Bro it is just marketing.AMD only developed the hardware not software and here we are talking about software(application).Do u think Sony or Ms will tell there secrets of optimizing games to AMD and than they came out with a brilliant plan to develop there API called Mantle

Sir plz can u tell which kind of Console tool are u talking about plz kindly post ur source than if it is ur IMO than plz post that to and

again we dont now how what will mantle do or how it performances will be it just hype actual performance will be after the real patch comes.

 

[Kenmitch]

Hmmm. Shinta, my posts here have NOTHING to do with bias or anything. Actually completely unbiased of me to ask for PROOF. Do not try to turn this into a "you're biased, they're biased" discussion. There was NONE of that til you mentioned it. I'm going to have to ask you to start sourcing your claims otherwise you would be knowingly posting falsified information here. I know a member who was banned for doing such. Just saying. Play right or don't play. You are purposely ignoring things that people are trying to explain to you.
Some friendly advice.

You got a bad rap on this one. I did kind of find it strange you asked for proof AMD paid all the developers. I doubt they did but most likely we'll never know for sure. The initial 8m rumor could be nothing more than a joint development cost to get Mantle up and running.

Just like Xbox 360 which did not give any advantage what so ever in PC games to AMD and neither Nvidia get any advantage through PS3 and that is all [redacted].

And here some user are misguiding plz dont post if u dont now.Next gen games are all most all are being developed on PC than ported to console for example Call of duty ghost,BF4,Watch Dog,AC4,Witcher 3,thief,Dark souls 2,Evil within,dying light e.t.c.

As many have stated in the past already....This go around there are more benefits of being in the consoles than in the past. These consoles unlike in the past are pretty much just SFF PC's. The ability to share development costs from console game to PC is much easier, less hassle, etc.

I guess your statement contradicts itself as a game developed on the PC with the intent of the console market needs to be optimized for the consoles target hardware....This is were Mantle comes to play. Why throw the code away on the PC version of the game if it's already there?

End reply!

Mantle results will be coming soon enough. The debate should be put on hold until we see some numbers. BF4 will be the showcase it looks like. As far as performance numbers only time will tell. If there is a sizeable increase in performance in BF4 with Mantle/GCN I could see other developers jumping on the bandwagon.

The interesting thing to see is how it effects the weaker GCN architecture.

 

[Paul98]

Bro it is just marketing.AMD only developed the hardware not software and here we are talking about software(application).Do u think Sony or Ms will there secrets of optimizing games to AMD and than they came out with a brilliant plan to develop there API called Mantle
Sir plz can u tell which kind of Console tool are u talking about plz kindly post ur source than if it is ur IMO than plz post that to and plz again we dont now how what will mantle do or how it performances will be it just hype actual performance will be after the real patch comes.

What are you trying to say? Could you please post in English

Agreed -- desprado, please stop tweeting/texting in this forum and make the effort to compose posts that are grammatically correct.
-- stahlhart

 

[GaiaHunter]

Bro it is just marketing.AMD only developed the hardware not software and here we are talking about software(application).Do u think Sony or Ms will there secrets of optimizing games to AMD and than they came out with a brilliant plan to develop there API called Mantle
Sir plz can u tell which kind of Console tool are u talking about plz kindly post ur source than if it is ur IMO than plz post that to and plz again we dont now how what will mantle do or how it performances will be it just hype actual performance will be after the real patch comes.

Microsoft and Sony have to create software compatible with AMD hardware specifications - believing Microsoft and Sony built the software without AMD interaction is ridiculous.
Also Microsoft and Sony don't develop or optimize games - developers do.
APIs aren't protected by copyright in the US.

 

[Kenmitch]

What are you trying to say? Could you please post in English

I'll translate it for you.

It's not fair, I'm running NVidia hardware and they are the best. Mantle will be nothing more than a cheat! AMD can't make it work just like their crappy drivers! Long live NVidia the gods of PC gaming.


Ok, let's calm down. Thread crapping will not be tolerated.

-Rvenger

 

[psoomah]

Just like Xbox 360 which did not give any advantage what so ever in PC games to AMD and neither Nvidia get any advantage through PS3 and that is all bullshit.

And here some user are misguiding plz dont post if u dont now.Next gen games are all most all are being developed on PC than ported to console for example Call of duty ghost,BF4,Watch Dog,AC4,Witcher 3,thief,Dark souls 2,Evil within,dying light e.t.c.

I must to agree, Mantle is bad true. Johan Andersson is known poser who wildly exaggerate. It is desperate scam going to leave AMD with big ostrich egg on face.

Warning issued for personal attack. The next one of you resorting to this sort of immaturity is going to get vacationed. Stop it now.
-- stahlhart

 

[desprado]

I'll translate it for you.

It's not fair, I'm running NVidia hardware and they are the best. Mantle will be nothing more than a cheat! AMD can't make it work just like their crappy drivers! Long live NVidia the gods of PC gaming.


Ok, let's calm down. Thread crapping will not be tolerated.

-Rvenger

i am did not say that.What i meant is people are saying games will be ported from console to pc but mostly upcoming games are developed on pc .Some people say here that DX will die soon and mantle will take over which is extremely BS but the fact is Mantle will be running on DX so it is not an independent API .

People here are excited and hyping but we all dont now actual performance yet until patch come out for BF4 that is all i want to say.

 

[psoomah]

You got a bad rap on this one. I did kind of find it strange you asked for proof AMD paid all the developers. I doubt they did but most likely we'll never know for sure. The initial 8m rumor could be nothing more than a joint development cost to get Mantle up and running.

Yep.

In the TH 'ask me anything' Q&A the AMD rep said flat out not once did AMD approach a developer about mantle. In every instance the developer approached AMD, the first of course being Johan Andersson.

Per an Hawaii event slide - Mantle "Built by AMD in close collaboration with us at DICE/EA."

http://www.slideshare.net/DICEStudio/battlefield-4-frostbite-3-mantle (slide 17)

AMD didn't 'pay' EA $8M to implement mantle, it invested $8M to do so. Probably the best $8M dollar investment in AMD's history.

Following that very enthusiastic presentation by the biggest developer in the business, it would seem developers are beating a path to AMD's door wanting in on Mantle.

 

[Noctifer616]

i am did not say that.What i meant is people are saying games will be ported from console to pc but mostly upcoming games are developed on pc .Some people say here that DX will die soon and mantle will take over which is extremely BS but the fact is Mantle will be running on DX so it is not an independent API .

What do you mean by Mantle runs DX? Yes, it has support for DX HLSL, but it's a separate API from DX.

People here are excited and hyping but we all dont now actual performance yet until patch come out for BF4 that is all i want to say.

Actually, we should see performance numbers at the coming AMD developer summit, Wednesday to be exact (both the Oxide presentation and Frostbite one should show performance of Mantle, hopefully even some numbers).

 

[desprado]

What do you mean by Mantle runs DX? Yes, it has support for DX HLSL, but it's a separate API from DX.



Actually, we should see performance numbers at the coming AMD developer summit, Wednesday to be exact (both the Oxide presentation and Frostbite one should show performance of Mantle, hopefully even some numbers).

No still it is not it will just marketing.Reviews from other site are better when actual patch come see performance by ur self.

 

[Minkoff]

No still it is not it will just marketing.Reviews from other site are better when actual patch come see performance by ur self.

You continue with this Marketing stuff. One of the main ideas of marketing is building a strong brand. They can't (and won't) show numbers that are unrealistic, as this will backfire at them (both AMD and EA/DICE). The same enhancements and gains will be checked and rechecked by reviewers, journalists etc.
Even with reviewers you see differences that are sometimes quite large, as there is something called "under equal conditions". If you want to change those gains/lost it's quite easy You simply need a change in one of the conditions...

 

[psoomah]

i am did not say that.What i meant is people are saying games will be ported from console to pc but mostly upcoming games are developed on pc .Some people say here that DX will die soon and mantle will take over which is extremely BS but the fact is Mantle will be running on DX so it is not an independent API .

People here are excited and hyping but we all dont now actual performance yet until patch come out for BF4 that is all i want to say.

At least on the Frostbite engine Mantle can bypass DirectX.

http://images.anandtech.com/doci/7371/FBMantle.jpg

 

[VulgarDisplay]

i am did not say that.What i meant is people are saying games will be ported from console to pc but mostly upcoming games are developed on pc .Some people say here that DX will die soon and mantle will take over which is extremely BS but the fact is Mantle will be running on DX so it is not an independent API .

People here are excited and hyping but we all dont now actual performance yet until patch come out for BF4 that is all i want to say.

I would love to see your proof that anyone has said Mantle will replace DX. When you can't find proof stop posting your garbage in this thread that is about discussing mantle.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I must to agree, Mantle is bad true. Johan Andersson is known poser who wildly exaggerate. It is desperate scam going to leave AMD with big ostrich egg on face.

lol, best post I've read in a while.

 

[Minkoff]

Mantle is a brilliant move by AMD. We will see how it goes but what ever the gains are there are a few things to account for and I will mention only two:
1. We know, that gains are not in the single digit. Let's take 10% gains.
Every GPU generation gets 20% increase (the number doesn't really matter). Next generation of Nvidia cards will have to be at least 30% faster, than the current one, and that's just to get even.
In order for people to be stimulated to purchase a new card there has to be a substantial (justifiable) gains, so we are talking 40% and up.
2. Those with older and weaker GPUs (note, that HD7xxx is already 2 years old) will receive a second wind and without additional costs. Combine that with additional driver improvements...

 

[Keysplayr]

Mantle is a brilliant move by AMD. We will see how it goes but what ever the gains are there are a few things to account for and I will mention only two:
1. We know, that gains are not in the single digit. Let's take 10% gains.
Every GPU generation gets 20% increase (the number doesn't really matter). Next generation of Nvidia cards will have to be at least 30% faster, than the current one, and that's just to get even.
In order for people to be stimulated to purchase a new card there has to be a substantial (justifiable) gains, so we are talking 40% and up.
2. Those with older and weaker GPUs (note, that HD7xxx is already 2 years old) will receive a second wind and without additional costs. Combine that with additional driver improvements...

Minkoff, what are you doing? You "know" performance gains are not in the single digits? Really? How do you know this when not ONE IOTA of performance information resulting from Mantle use has been released or posted anywhere in public? See, this is the kind of posting I have a tremendous issue with. You actually just said out loud, that Mantle was a brilliant move for AMD. Why? What have you seen that deems it brilliant?
See what I'm getting at?
And please, none of that "Any fool could see" nonsense.
Stop praising this thing until we get some concrete info for goodness sake.
When it comes out and it does well, then I'll raise the roof with you, but until then dude, stop promoting.

 

[Noctifer616]

Minkoff, what are you doing? You "know" performance gains are not in the single digits? Really? How do you know this when not ONE IOTA of performance information resulting from Mantle use has been released or posted anywhere in public?

I guess he gets it from the Tom's AMA they did with the Radeon guys. They said they wouldn't do the whole low level API thing if it was just a a few percent, which leads to believe that performance are at least 10%+.

Let's hope we see some numbers in the coming days, and Mantle vs DX benchmarks once the BF4 patch is out.

 

[Paul98]

Minkoff, what are you doing? You "know" performance gains are not in the single digits? Really? How do you know this when not ONE IOTA of performance information resulting from Mantle use has been released or posted anywhere in public? See, this is the kind of posting I have a tremendous issue with. You actually just said out loud, that Mantle was a brilliant move for AMD. Why? What have you seen that deems it brilliant?
See what I'm getting at?
And please, none of that "Any fool could see" nonsense.
Stop praising this thing until we get some concrete info for goodness sake.
When it comes out and it does well, then I'll raise the roof with you, but until then dude, stop promoting.

It doesn't have to be released, you can look at evidence from what and how things can be done on a low level api vs DX. Along with what performance can be gained through driver updates and between different API's and API versions. You look where things will be sped up or where new things can be done or used.