The AMD Mantle Thread

[cmdrdredd]

Sure.
But DX isn't just one big thing, it has different pieces and layers.
The XBone APi has a few bells and whistles that do not exist in the PC version, like a low level API.
It is that low level API that is said to be copied by mantle.

Then you have the ps4 which has an even different api...

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yeah, so what they will be making it anyways. So they should just waste the code they already have optimized for GCN because they have to port it to directx anyways? Especially since it will be very minimal extra work to use code that a lot of work had been spent on to create.

How can they use code for an api that does not exist on the console??

If you make a game for the ps4 you can't just drag it to the PC. You need additional code to make the translation. Supposedly mantle will make this somewhat easier but what if you don't code from the beginning with mantle in mind? No games that are currently in development outside of dice are using it. The way I see it now is it is additional work to make mantle part of the engine.

 

[Keysplayr]

I could be wrong, but based on the dependence Mantle requires (supporting game design houses) it may just be a one off through Dice. Better than a non-starter, but not by very much.

 

[chimaxi83]

I could be wrong, but based on the dependence Mantle requires (supporting game design houses) it may just be a one off through Dice. Better than a non-starter, but not by very much.

A game that will sell millions upon millions worldwide is "not by much"? Lmao. I know the agenda here is to discredit anything AMD, but come on. If there was one game to introduce whatever Mantle will be, BF4 is absolutely THE game.

 

[Keysplayr]

Listen, attack me and my "agenda" if you must, it just makes you look a little petty when somebody says something you don't like.

OT. Millions of game sales is good, but wouldn't a dozen houses be better? One house does not a successful API make. We'll see if that changes.

 

[Paul98]

How can they use code for an api that does not exist on the console??

If you make a game for the ps4 you can't just drag it to the PC. You need additional code to make the translation. Supposedly mantle will make this somewhat easier but what if you don't code from the beginning with mantle in mind? No games that are currently in development outside of dice are using it. The way I see it now is it is additional work to make mantle part of the engine.

Because both will have similar access and functionality at low level on the same hardware. Sure it will be coming from different API syntax but that isn't a problem and shouldn't take much time to translate since the code for both console and PC will be doing the same thing in the same way. This would be different with a high level API.

 

[krumme]

Listen, attack me and my "agenda" if you must, it just makes you look a little petty when somebody says something you don't like.

OT. Millions of game sales is good, but wouldn't a dozen houses be better? One house does not a successful API make. We'll see if that changes.

A dozen houses? Is this serious? A game is programmed to an engine.

3 engines control the market of importance here. Amd got one of them and the most important engine that is. And of top of it the most important game by far. THE game for the next 1-2 years. Practically it means for highend gaming amd have 30-50% of the power games locked down. This is a giant blow to nv if mantle delivers. But if this is 20% plus it just means the incentives for consumers to buy buy nv will plummet. But its about the effect of mantle. The rest is nonsense but it remains to be seen what effect there is. And we will know december.

 

[Keysplayr]

So I take it you believe Mantle has a firm enough foothold then.

 

[blackened23]

A dozen houses? Is this serious? A game is programmed to an engine.

3 engines control the market of importance here. Amd got one of them and the most important engine that is. And of top of it the most important game by far. THE game for the next 1-2 years. Practically it means for highend gaming amd have 30-50% of the power games locked down. This is a giant blow to nv if mantle delivers. But if this is 20% plus it just means the incentives for consumers to buy buy nv will plummet. But its about the effect of mantle. The rest is nonsense but it remains to be seen what effect there is. And we will know december.

"Giant blow to NV if mantle delivers" Let's cross that path when we get there eh? I've always praised AMD for the idea of Mantle, I think it's great that they're trying to add value oriented features to their SKUs. This is exactly what NV does with physx and TXAA.

That being said, let's not kid ourselves. AMD has a lot of work to do before they can put a dent in NV's armor with Mantle - the first step is GETTING into all of those game engines (we'll see what happens, I do think that will be their strategy, though) and games being released.

The way I see it, I think the idea for Mantle is great. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm looking at the 290X ONLY and SOLELY by it's DX11 ability and nothing else - It's going to take well over a year for Mantle to be properly utilized appreciably if AMD gets it into all of those engines. So it's a long term proposition. Not a short one. It's not like Nvidia is going to capitulate overnight and leave the market because of Mantle. It's going to take several years for Mantle to be a factor. Again - long term proposition. Not an overnight thing. You're saying these things like Mantle is going to make nvidia irrelevant on whatever the launch date for the 290X is. Please. You don't really believe that do you?

 

[Kenmitch]

^^^^

Most peoples view on Mantle will change overnight once the Mantle bomb is dropped in BF4....Pretty sure even NVidia eagerly awaits this event.

 

[SiliconWars]

So I take it you believe Mantle has a firm enough foothold then.

AMD was on record from day one stating that other devs are on board and will be revealed at APU13.

And you really have to ask yourself - if it's good enough for EA why wouldn't it be good enough for the rest?

 

[blackened23]

^^^^

Most peoples view on Mantle will change overnight once the Mantle bomb is dropped in BF4....Pretty sure even NVidia eagerly awaits this event.

If Mantle delivers in BF4, hey, great. But that still won't really put a beloved patriot in nvidia's armor. I see Mantle as a very long term thing where AMD has a ton of work promoting it to multi platform engine designers, you know? And if they do that, all of those games take years in development. If AMD does their job, I predict 2 years or so for it to be realized with actual games in our hands. Game development is a long process.

Again - even though I think the concept with Mantle is great, it's a long term proposition. Not going to affect nvidia much at all in the short term IMHO.

 

[krumme]

So I take it you believe Mantle has a firm enough foothold then.

Absolutely. But the reason have nothing to do with amd nor nv:

I beliewe consoles have the foothold. Thats what matters.
Secondly profit for content dictates the future.
Mantle is just a tool for maximizing those markets; Lowering cost for development across platforms.
Its that simple.

I know some think this is a standard that needs to gain support. But thats pc nerd thinking. Everyone like to lower cost and ttm; if you have developped something for eg. Ps4 you port it to pc and xbox with fewer cost.

The problem is the politics in this. And then we still need to see if mantle actually works.

 

[krumme]

"Giant blow to NV if mantle delivers" Let's cross that path when we get there eh? I've always praised AMD for the idea of Mantle, I think it's great that they're trying to add value oriented features to their SKUs. This is exactly what NV does with physx and TXAA.

That being said, let's not kid ourselves. AMD has a lot of work to do before they can put a dent in NV's armor with Mantle - the first step is GETTING into all of those game engines (we'll see what happens, I do think that will be their strategy, though) and games being released.

The way I see it, I think the idea for Mantle is great. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'm looking at the 290X ONLY and SOLELY by it's DX11 ability and nothing else - It's going to take well over a year for Mantle to be properly utilized appreciably if AMD gets it into all of those engines. So it's a long term proposition. Not a short one. It's not like Nvidia is going to capitulate overnight and leave the market because of Mantle. It's going to take several years for Mantle to be a factor. Again - long term proposition. Not an overnight thing. You're saying these things like Mantle is going to make nvidia irrelevant on whatever the launch date for the 290X is. Please. You don't really believe that do you?

Yes it is a giant blow if it delivers no other way to put it. Nv will be there in full force but will have to reduce price. Nv have tons of cash, super brand, and still an perf mm2 advantage at the important segments plus a professional markets. No need to put strawmen up.

But that doesnt change the possibility of mantle beeing the biggest change for 3d gaming ever. Because we can all see what coding closer to the metal does for craphics.

And i dont beliewe in this; i will only judge by dx perf talk. Why not judge by future anticipation also? You do that by every other consumer goods you buy. Is there no limit to this dx only thinking. What about bf4. Will you only judge 280x bf4 by its dx perf?

 

[AnandThenMan]

If Mantle delivers in BF4, hey, great. But that still won't really put a beloved patriot in nvidia's armor.

BF4 is going to sell in huge numbers, and will also sell a lot of hardware. If BF4 Mantle edition delivers, it will most certainly put a few dents in Nvidia's armour.

 

[Keysplayr]

AMD was on record from day one stating that other devs are on board and will be revealed at APU13.

And you really have to ask yourself - if it's good enough for EA why wouldn't it be good enough for the rest?

AMD also said that devs ASKED them to develop "Mantle".


Yeah, they didn't.

 

[blackened23]

Yes it is a giant blow if it delivers no other way to put it. Nv will be there in full force but will have to reduce price. Nv have tons of cash, super brand, and still an perf mm2 advantage at the important segments plus a professional markets. No need to put strawmen up.

But that does change the possibility of mantle beeing the biggest change for 3d gaming ever. Because we can all see what coding closer to the metal does for craphics.

And i dont beliewe in this; i will only judge by dx perf talk. Why not judge by future anticipation also? You do that by every other consumer goods you buy. Is there no limit to this dx only thinking. What about bf4. Will you only judge 280x bf4 by its dx perf?

Is that a joke? Nobody buys products based on promises. They buy based on reviews with objective performance comparisons. Period. That's why I said the 290X will judged by DX11 - nothing more and nothing less. Only an idiot would buy based on promises. I think the idea for Mantle is great and am glad that AMD introduced it, but let's be real here - anyone residing on planet earth would realize that it's a non factor until a ton of games use it. Mantle is a long term proposition and isn't anything that NV has to worry about for some time.

 

[Keysplayr]

Is that a joke? Nobody buys products based on promises. They buy based on reviews with objective performance comparisons. Period. That's why I said the 290X will judged by DX11 - nothing more and nothing less. Only an idiot would buy based on promises. I think the idea for Mantle is great but anyone residing on planet earth would realize that it's a non factor until a ton of games use it. Mantle is a long term proposition and isn't anything that NV has to worry about for some time.

Agreed. Devs, unless paid millions, don't really want to manage a third API.
DX and OpenGL are probably too much for them as it is.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

BF4 is going to sell in huge numbers, and will also sell a lot of hardware. If BF4 Mantle edition delivers, it will most certainly put a few dents in Nvidia's armour.

Game is greatly over-estimated, it doesn't and will never have a fraction of the PC market, let alone even a single popular f2p PC title.

I know I won't be buying it at release, talks like CoD, walks like CoD, probably is CoD.


Also going by your previous post about a few copies sold, you must think PhysX is a resounding success given it dwarfs anything Mantle has done, and probably will do in the next few years when you look at amount of games and copies of said games sold.

 

[krumme]

^^^^

Most peoples view on Mantle will change overnight once the Mantle bomb is dropped in BF4....Pretty sure even NVidia eagerly awaits this event.

What is a bomb?

Imho:

5% meh - huge disappointment
20% super - living up to the big expectations
50% bomb - what was happening with dx????

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I'd like to add the only interesting thing to me in the entire Mantle saga is the draw call reduction.

And that isn't something I care about in Call of Doody clones, let me know when Mantle is in the next big MMO or RTS though.

 

[Keysplayr]

Game is greatly over-estimated, it doesn't and will never have a fraction of the PC market, let alone even a single popular f2p PC title.

I know I won't be buying it at release, talks like CoD, walks like CoD, probably is CoD.


Also going by your previous post about a few copies sold, you must think PhysX is a resounding success given it dwarfs anything Mantle has done, and probably will do in the next few years when you look at amount of games and copies of said games sold.

I was think this exact same thing, but didn't want to drift off into that tangent. I think we both know the answer.

 

[Kenmitch]

What is a bomb?

Imho:

5% meh - huge disappointment
20% super - living up to the big expectations
50% bomb - what was happening with dx????

I didn't say which way the opinions would change.

I'm really only here to watch you guys argue!

What's the score? I lost track pages ago.

 

[krumme]

Is that a joke? Nobody buys products based on promises. They buy based on reviews with objective performance comparisons. Period. That's why I said the 290X will judged by DX11 - nothing more and nothing less. Only an idiot would buy based on promises. I think the idea for Mantle is great and am glad that AMD introduced it, but let's be real here - anyone residing on planet earth would realize that it's a non factor until a ton of games use it. Mantle is a long term proposition and isn't anything that NV has to worry about for some time.

Is this a joke?
How can it be in this imaginary world where people buy on objective performance comparisons that nv portfolio consistently have far less perf than equivalent amd for same $? Especially outside usa. Who is the "idiots" residing on this planet buying nv cards?

Lets be really real here. If anyone thinks nv is not worried about this they dont know anything about objective business. And i can assure you they are because they like their money.

 

[SiliconWars]

AMD also said that devs ASKED them to develop "Mantle".

Slide 15 - http://www.frostbite.com/connect/#battlefield-4-frostbite-mantle

Yeah, they didn't.

Says who?