The AMD Mantle Thread

[ShintaiDK]

You made the statement; now prove it......

Uhm...

He gets 14-24 when not recording with fraps. Add 25-30% just from turning settings from Ultra to High. Add atleast 50% extra due to removing AA. Might even be more on such an old card.

He also plays in 1280*1024. While your PS3 runs at 1280*720. Or almost 50% more pixels.

If you want to talk about coding to metal benefits and APIs. I would really focus on CPU only if I was you.

 

[MeldarthX]

Uhm...

He gets 14-24 when not recording with fraps. Add 25-30% just from turning settings from Ultra to High. Add atleast 50% extra due to removing AA. Might even be more on such an old card.

He also plays in 1280*1024. While your PS3 runs at 1280*720. Or almost 50% more pixels.

If you want to talk about coding to metal benefits and APIs. I would really focus on CPU only if I was you.

Like I said - I've show a video that shows its not possible - you.....nothing typical. Like I said; prove it does - Shin; you made the claim - now prove it.

 

[GaiaHunter]

The PS3 version doesnt use 4xAA, no Ultra settings, no FRAPS.

Shouldnt be hard to get 30fps in that res just removing AA.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Games/Features/Skyrim_PC_performance/2.html

Just see how much it changes from Ultra to High 25-30% faster.

So...we are now down to what..CPU performance from coding to metal?

Oh yeah.

Lets use a GTS450 to get 30 FPS.

A GTS450 is equivalent to a GTS250 which is equivalent to a 9800GTX.

So we went from a 7900GTX to a 9800GTX.

Also using a core i7 920@3.6GHz vs things that perform as good as P4s/PDs.

From this AT article that was pulled but can be found here https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl...eo.sony-playstation2/iVcRIKgR-r8/qY6nbtmD_2IJ

Right now, from what we've heard, the real-world performance of the Xenon
CPU is about twice that of the 733MHz processor in the first Xbox.
Considering that this CPU is supposed to power the Xbox 360 for the next 4 -
5 years, it's nothing short of disappointing. To put it in perspective,
floating point multiplies are apparently 1/3 as fast on Xenon as on a
Pentium 4.

The reason for the poor performance? The very narrow 2-issue in-order core
also happens to be very deeply pipelined, apparently with a branch predictor
that's not the best in the business. In the end, you get what you pay for,
and with such a small core, it's no surprise that performance isn't anywhere
near the Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 class.

The Cell processor doesn't get off the hook just because it only uses a
single one of these horribly slow cores; the SPE array ends up being fairly
useless in the majority of situations, making it little more than a waste of
die space.
(...)
The most ironic bit of it all is that according to developers, if either
manufacturer had decided to use an Athlon 64 or a Pentium D in their
next-gen console, they would be significantly ahead of the competition in
terms of CPU performance.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Lets use a GTS450 to get 30 FPS.

The GTS450 is running at 1920*1080. Or almost 3x the pixels as the PS3

Not to mention 8xAA. But I dont think you read anything. So how would you know?

 

[GaiaHunter]

The GTS450 is running at 1920*1080. Or almost 3x the pixels as the PS3

Not to mention 8xAA. But I dont think you read anything. So how would you know?

The GTS450 is also around twice as fast as a 7900GTX.

At 8xAA it gets 24 fps.

Do you want to see what CPU power does to Skyrim benchmarks?

That Athlon II X2 3.3GHz is also quite a bit faster than the Cell and the Xenom of the consoles and it probably ends being half the speed of the i7 920@3.6 Ghz.

Unless of course CPUs don't matter for gaming especially lower resolutions with no AA.

 

[ShintaiDK]

So the GPU benefit talk is dead, and we are back to CPU for any code to metal/low level API benefits? But what about the 2-3x performance and several generations ahead? Not to mention the 7900GTX one was demoed with DX9, not having all the overhead reduction as DX10 and forward.

Will there be a CPU benefit of some sort? No doubt. But those GPU pipedreams will never materialize.

 

[krumme]

So kabini has what, 128 sp I believe? No matter how much you reduce draw calls to the cpu,, I still don't see how that is going to be sufficient to play AAA titles with any kind of decent settings. You might shift the limitation from CPU to gpu, but I think you will still be severely limited.

What matters is imho can it game at all and how many of the aaa games. If; then it can sell games, because people have the machine at hand already. Low res 768 at low quality on a craptop for aaa is a world better than no gaming. We will se how many new games running mantle will play at low settings. If it can then its huge change.

 

[GaiaHunter]

So the GPU benefit talk is dead, and we are back to CPU for any code to metal/low level API benefits? But what about the 2-3x performance and several generations ahead? Not to mention the 7900GTX one was demoed with DX9, not having all the overhead reduction as DX10 and forward.

Skyrim is DX9 so there is no DX10 overhead reduction for it anyway.

But you aren't just using 2-3x the performance and several generations ahead of GPUs.
You are also using 2-3x the performance and several generations ahead of CPUs.

A GTX580 is a ridiculous number of times faster than a 7900GTX and with a processor way faster than those of the consoles can only pull 36 FPS at 1050p 4xAA.

That RSX has 176 GFLOPS. The Xenos 240 GFLOPS. GTX580 1581 GFLOPS.

And these days AA comes at a much less penalty compared to the 7900GTX days.

You grab a 7900GTX pair it with a low clocked Pentium D and tell me how much FPS you get at 720p.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Lets put it in perspective.

RSX (PS3)
13.2 GigaTexels
4.4 Gigapixel
8 ROPs
22.4 GB/s

Xenos (Xbox360)
8 gigatexels
4 gigapixels
8 ROPs

7900GTX
15.6 GigaTexels
10.4 Gigapixel
16 ROPs
51.2 GB/s

GTS450
21.9 GigaTexels
12.5 Gigapixel
16 ROPs
57.7 GB/s

3x the number of pixels and even 4xAA vs 2xAA and the lower resolution is only 9-13% faster.

 

[MeldarthX]

Lets put it in perspective.

RSX (PS3)
13.2 GigaTexels
4.4 Gigapixel
8 ROPs
22.4 GB/s

Xenos (Xbox360)
8 gigatexels
4 gigapixels
8 ROPs

7900GTX
15.6 GigaTexels
10.4 Gigapixel
16 ROPs
51.2 GB/s

GTS450
21.9 GigaTexels
12.5 Gigapixel
16 ROPs
57.7 GB/s

He won't answer because he knows he's wrong. That's why he keeps changing his goal posts; tune etc. Sadly he won't admit it and move on.

 

[frozentundra123456]

What matters is imho can it game at all and how many of the aaa games. If; then it can sell games, because people have the machine at hand already. Low res 768 at low quality on a craptop for aaa is a world better than no gaming. We will se how many new games running mantle will play at low settings. If it can then its huge change.

We will see I guess, but kabini has about 10% of the TDP, bandwidth, and shaders as a high/mid range card like the HD7870, and much less cpu power as a desktop. It will take some pretty strong magic to make that a pleasant gaming experience. Not to mention do you want to play online at 720p or lower, absolute min setings, 20 to 30 fps when you are competing against players with much better hardware? I also dont think the choice is between a craptop and no gaming. The choice is really between a craptop and a console. Which would you choose?

 

[krumme]

We will see I guess, but kabini has about 10% of the TDP, bandwidth, and shaders as a high/mid range card like the HD7870, and much less cpu power as a desktop. It will take some pretty strong magic to make that a pleasant gaming experience. Not to mention do you want to play online at 720p or lower, absolute min setings, 20 to 30 fps when you are competing against players with much better hardware? I also dont think the choice is between a craptop and no gaming. The choice is really between a craptop and a console. Which would you choose?

I think many will have both. Perhaps for some of the less demanding aaa titles they will now be able to play on the run.

Perhaps we will even see some giving access to play on the pc as well as the console for the same license?

(Hmm - I liked that idea its innovation on the business level - probably invented 10 years ago lol)

 

[Creig]

Suffice to say, Mantle has the possibility of allowing higher levels of graphics settings or higher level of framerates on all GCN equipped PCs. How much higher will depend on the system in question and how much of a bottleneck is being eliminated by using Mantle.

I think it's going to vary game-by-game. Some games might see a larger framerate increase than others simply because the bottleneck present in one game might not exist in the next. So where Mantle would make a huge difference in one game, it might make minimal improvements in the next.

We're just going to have to wait and see.

 

[SiliconWars]

It has to be good for AMD regardless as their clear strength is graphics and not CPU performance. Anything that shifts the bottleneck to the graphics is an automatic win, especially vs Intel.

 

[krumme]

It has to be good for AMD regardless as their clear strength is graphics and not CPU performance. Anything that shifts the bottleneck to the graphics is an automatic win, especially vs Intel.

Well thats a good point. It goes for their entire apu family and includes possible future kaveri.

Add with hsa and compute function future iterations of mantle will be very good for keeping cpu cost down. Perhaps we will see a 8 core kabini2 with 256gfx on 20nm h2 14. The new lowest end.

 

[desprado]

I dont why people bring rubbish by saying AMD has powered next gen console which cannot even play games at 1080p from its start.Even AMD CPUS are weak in desktop than think what there cell processor will be like.AMD fanboys are so hyping this beacuse they never seen any thing exclusive for AMD GPUS but at the end it always disappointment.

 

[flopper]

I dont why people bring rubbish by saying AMD has powered next gen console which cannot even play games at 1080p from its start.Even AMD CPUS are weak in desktop than think what there cell processor will be like.AMD fanboys are so hyping this beacuse they never seen any thing exclusive for AMD GPUS but at the end it always disappointment.

you can buy a 8core for 5 times less than a 4930k and have a great system for whatever you do. I cant say thats dissapointing.
what amd is doing is to retify the cpu/gpu balance to make gpu run with more work.
its a good plan if it works out vs the cpu debate.

 

[desprado]

you can buy a 8core for 5 times less than a 4930k and have a great system for whatever you do. I cant say thats dissapointing.
what amd is doing is to retify the cpu/gpu balance to make gpu run with more work.
its a good plan if it works out vs the cpu debate.

Read my statement some AMD fanboys bring out console debate.Next Gen Console cannot even beat core i3 and gtx 580 in term of performance.That 8 core cannot even beat i7 which has 4 core.

 

[Erenhardt]

Read my statement some AMD fanboys bring out console debate.Next Gen Console cannot even beat core i3 and gtx 580 in term of performance.That 8 core cannot even beat i7 which has 4 core.

I feel like your nickname suits you very good. Thank you for the valuable opinion.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Read my statement some AMD fanboys bring out console debate.Next Gen Console cannot even beat core i3 and gtx 580 in term of performance.That 8 core cannot even beat i7 which has 4 core.

The point is that 8 core in the consoles, while weak by desktop standards is much more powerful than the Xenon and Cell inside Xbox360 and PS3.

 

[krumme]

I dont why people bring rubbish by saying AMD has powered next gen console which cannot even play games at 1080p from its start.Even AMD CPUS are weak in desktop than think what there cell processor will be like.AMD fanboys are so hyping this beacuse they never seen any thing exclusive for AMD GPUS but at the end it always disappointment.

Wellcome to the thread. What joystick do you use for writing?

 

[frozentundra123456]

The point is that 8 core in the consoles, while weak by desktop standards is much more powerful than the Xenon and Cell inside Xbox360 and PS3.

Really, current tech is faster than 7 year old tech? Stop the presses, I would never have guessed that.

Relative to PC hardware *of the same time period*, however, I am not really sure the new consoles are faster. To me that is the most valid comparison. I do think the new consoles will be very nice for the money, especially PS4, but they seem to be struggling to reach native 1080p, which has been the standard for mid-range gaming PCs for a while now.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Really, current tech is faster than 7 year old tech? Stop the presses, I would never have guessed that.

Relative to PC hardware *of the same time period*, however, I am not really sure the new consoles are faster. To me that is the most valid comparison. I do think the new consoles will be very nice for the money, especially PS4, but they seem to be struggling to reach native 1080p, which has been the standard for mid-range gaming PCs for a while now.

They weren't faster then either.

 

[Creig]

Read my statement some AMD fanboys bring out console debate.Next Gen Console cannot even beat core i3 and gtx 580 in term of performance.That 8 core cannot even beat i7 which has 4 core.

Which is why consoles use a low-level API in order to maximize the amount of processing power available from the hardware.

Which will soon be brought to GCN equipped PCs via Mantle.

Which is the point of this thread.

 

[stahlhart]

Get this thread back on topic, and stop the personal attacks.
-- stahlhart