Texas Ebola patient dies

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think the #1 problem is that we don't know what the problem is.

We've had studies by doctors, like the AMA and New England Journal of Medicine identifying why our costs are so high yet no one pays it any attention. Those reasons never entered the political debate AFAIK. If you don't correctly identify the problem(s) you can't fix it/them. (Reminds me of my sig.)

We often hear of other countries' HC system, yet I've seen no real discussion of why their system is capable of providing HC for less. Hint: it isn't about whose name is listed as payer on the check (i.e., "single payer").

Now, it may be that some yelling "single payer" know the 'score', but don't want to discuss it for fear of people freaking out etc and rejecting it. A real "single payer" system comes with a bunch of substantial changes that I bet people won't accept and couldn't be implemented with out great upheaval to our HC system and economy even if they would.

Fern

I suggest we look at the NIH situation. Funding is not kept up with the science needed and politicians dictate to the scientists what takes priority even if it makes little sense because it looks good. Getting and keeping grants? Virtually impossible these days and it's not just the Republicans. Here's how we do things, not very intelligently.

We have awfully screwed up priorities and wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[fskimospy]

I think the #1 problem is that we don't know what the problem is.

We've had studies by doctors, like the AMA and New England Journal of Medicine identifying why our costs are so high yet no one pays it any attention. Those reasons never entered the political debate AFAIK. If you don't correctly identify the problem(s) you can't fix it/them. (Reminds me of my sig.)

We often hear of other countries' HC system, yet I've seen no real discussion of why their system is capable of providing HC for less. Hint: it isn't about whose name is listed as payer on the check (i.e., "single payer").

Now, it may be that some yelling "single payer" know the 'score', but don't want to discuss it for fear of people freaking out etc and rejecting it. A real "single payer" system comes with a bunch of substantial changes that I bet people won't accept and couldn't be implemented with out great upheaval to our HC system and economy even if they would.

Fern

Whose name is on the check means a great deal. Bargaining power.

In fact I would say basically all the empirical evidence available shows this. What were you basing your ideas on?

 

[Fern]

Whose name is on the check means a great deal. Bargaining power.

In fact I would say basically all the empirical evidence available shows this. What were you basing your ideas on?

You're alluding to one of the 'ugly secrets' of single payer, no?

If we go single payer price fixing, along with other elements of single payer likely to be hugely unpopular among many people, will have to be implemented. I predict a shortage of HC providers as they flood out of the profession or are forced out due to bankruptcy. This will likely also result in a bailout: the govt's go-to solution when they screw something up big time.

Fern

 

[Victorian Gray]

Is it ok to panic now? This is some scarey shit. The CDC looks absolutely terrible throughout this. I wish they would quit telling us how they have this under control and how difficult it is to transmit. Everytime they open their mouths they get proven wrong. Jesus I have lost all confidence in these buffoons.

Don't forget to legally change your name to Chicken Little

 

[Victorian Gray]

Damn dude, I just had an epiphany. We are on the edge of a disaster, it could still go either way. If this is the beginning of a pandemic, the economy will crater worse than 2008. I am thinking I should pull ALL of my investments from the market now BEFORE the panic selling. Whatcha think?

It's the end of the world and you're worrying about investments? Shouldn't you be hiding in your bunker?

 

[Matt1970]

Damn dude, I just had an epiphany. We are on the edge of a disaster, it could still go either way. If this is the beginning of a pandemic, the economy will crater worse than 2008. I am thinking I should pull ALL of my investments from the market now BEFORE the panic selling. Whatcha think?

Yes, pull all your investments and sell them to me. I will give you 30 cents on the dollar.

 

[Victorian Gray]

OH NOES!!! Ebola may have arrived in Ottawa.

Hold me.

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/10/13/patient-with-ebola-like-symptoms-admitted-to-ottawa-hospital

2 teaspoons of Maple Syrup and call the doctor in the morning.

 

[fskimospy]

You're alluding to one of the 'ugly secrets' of single payer, no?

If we go single payer price fixing, along with other elements of single payer likely to be hugely unpopular among many people, will have to be implemented. I predict a shortage of HC providers as they flood out of the profession or are forced out due to bankruptcy. This will likely also result in a bailout: the govt's go-to solution when they screw something up big time.

Fern

Has this happened with other countries that have gone that way? No.

Basically you're arguing against efficiency.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Has this happened with other countries that have gone that way? No.

Basically you're arguing against efficiency.

No, it's true. Just look at us here in Canada. All the doctors left the country when our single payer system was adopted. Canadians all have to go to medical school (in other countries as we no longer have any in Canada) so we can learn to treat ourselves.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

No, it's true. Just look at us here in Canada. All the doctors left the country when our single payer system was adopted. Canadians all have to go to medical school (in other countries as we no longer have any in Canada) so we can learn to treat ourselves.

Yup.

Makes me regret my choice to specialize in gynaecology. I didn't think that through at all. :'(

 

[BoberFett]

Has this happened with other countries that have gone that way? No.

Basically you're arguing against efficiency.

Like the military complex, the healthcare industry in this country is a jobs program. If we cut our healthcare spending in half, that's a million jobs gone. What will those people do instead?

Wait, you don't believe there's a trillion dollars in profit, do you? Yelling "Grrrrrr, corporate profits and executives with gold plated yachts!!!" as you shake your fist at the sky doesn't really suit you.

 

[Fern]

Has this happened with other countries that have gone that way? No.

Basically you're arguing against efficiency.

What, price fixing?

Yeah, they have price fixing.

Fern

 

[Victorian Gray]

Yup.

Makes me regret my choice to specialize in gynaecology. I didn't think that through at all. :'(

I took my parents advice and stuck with general medicine which mostly worked out ok. I did end up needing my neighbour's help with my cancer treatment though.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

What, price fixing?

Yeah, they have price fixing.

Fern

He thinks it's all about blackmail. Don't encourage him

 

[squarecut1]

Like the military complex, the healthcare industry in this country is a jobs program.

Unlike the lucrative military industrial complex, most people working in the health industry are making not a lot more than minimum wage, with no benefits. Even the general practice doctors / physician assistants are not making much at all, with garbage "benefits", and long stressful hours to boot. Plus burdened with heavy student loans. Nope, the military complex it is not. They are not even in the same universe.

 

[fskimospy]

What, price fixing?

Yeah, they have price fixing.

Fern

Lol. Look at the percentage of GDP spent on health care and the outcomes. Then come back and argue against efficiency some more.

Conservatives are only against waste in government if it's spent on things they don't like. They are totally fine with ideologically compatible waste. Makes you wonder which part of the equation they are actually against, eh?

 

[squarecut1]

No, it's true. Just look at us here in Canada. All the doctors left the country when our single payer system was adopted. Canadians all have to go to medical school (in other countries as we no longer have any in Canada) so we can learn to treat ourselves.

That is why it is not going to work here. We Americans are not so bright to learn all that on our own. Plus we don't even know where America is on the world map, how can we travel abroad?

Plus, it stinks of that thing called socialism. We can't have that. As that guy cried out in the John McCain rally - keep the government off my Medicare!

 

[Matt1970]

Lol. Look at the percentage of GDP spent on health care and the outcomes. Then come back and argue against efficiency some more.

I think it's adorable how some people think that is somehow going to go down once the government has totally taken over healthcare.

 

[squarecut1]

Conservatives are only against waste in government if it's spent on things they don't like. They are totally fine with ideologically compatible waste. Makes you wonder which part of the equation they are actually against, eh?

Not just waste. They love the government welfare whose recipients are they themselves, their constituents. There you never hear complaints. The hypocrisy of American politics is sickening

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Like the military complex, the healthcare industry in this country is a jobs program. If we cut our healthcare spending in half, that's a million jobs gone. What will those people do instead?

Wait, you don't believe there's a trillion dollars in profit, do you? Yelling "Grrrrrr, corporate profits and executives with gold plated yachts!!!" as you shake your fist at the sky doesn't really suit you.

It would be hard to find an overstaffed situation in health care. Nurse burnout is well documented and problematic. The stress on people in my field has led to loss of years of life. Physicians are among the highest for suicides. What we need is improvement in the infrastructure with a mindset towards improving care. There needs to be more of a bottom up approach instead of top down dictation by those who haven't an idea, but think they do because they read about it. For example there's foolish idea that what we need is "efficiency" which translates into more people seen per unit time. That's not right at all. What has been found that one of the most beneficial things which can be done is for a skilled and trained person to take at least an hour doing a patient history and observing. There's a lot one can learn by doing this properly. Because someone isn't complaining doesn't mean there's not something which might be determined to either be a problem or will become one. Fixing things when small is far better than waiting until someone shows up in dire straits. But it takes time and personal interaction by those with expertise and knowledge and we aren't training people to do this. People/unit time= quality of care and "efficiency". No, giving the best outcome up front is. But to do this doesn't look good to bean counter mentality and the uninformed. It's too bad things are ultimately run by ignorance.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I think it's adorable how some people think that is somehow going to go down once the government has totally taken over healthcare.

Funny thing, that's not what happens with a single payer health insurance system.

 

[squarecut1]

The relentless pressure to see more patients in a given time comes from the business owners. For them, the thing that matters is money, not quality of care. And certainly not long term quality of care, that can come from greater emphasis on patient history and such things. Greed is ruining this society, eating it from inside.

 

[doubledeluxe]

I think it's adorable how some people think that is somehow going to go down once the government has totally taken over healthcare.

Reality is alluding you. The rest of the developed world has universal healthcare and it's cheaper and effective. Our system is worse than most countries out there. 18% of GDP is simply unacceptable.

 

[doubledeluxe]

The USA is ranked 38th in the world by the WHO with countries like Argentina, Colombia, Saudi Arabia, and Dominica ahead of us.

 

[squarecut1]

Funny thing, that's not what happens with a single payer health insurance system.

People confuse single payer with government run system