Texas Dpt. Of Public Safety demands full set of fingerprints for DL’s

Oldgamer

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,280
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Apparently they didn't let applicants know that its voluntary to give your fingerprints and told people it was mandatory. They started loading their fingerprints into their criminal database without their knowledge.

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Link to article

The Texas Dept. of Public Safety has apparently decided that if you'd like to be allowed to drive a vehicle in the state, you'd also perfectly fine with a criminal booking-style fingerprinting and having those immediately uploaded to a criminal database (that reps swear isn't a criminal database).

For years, Texas has only required a thumbprint as a minor security measure when obtaining a driver's license or ID card. That has now changed. It's unclear exactly when this went into effect (the Texas DPS made no announcement of this policy change), but longtime Dallas Morning News consumer affairs columnist, Dave Lieber, experienced it firsthand back in June.

The other day at the Texas driver’s license center, while paying for my required in-person renewal, the clerk said it was time to take my fingerprints.

What?

Really. Quietly, earlier this year, the Texas Department of Public Safety began requiring full sets of fingerprints from everyone who obtains a new driver’s license or photo identification card. This applies to those who come in as required for periodic renewals, but it doesn’t apply to mail-in renewals.

Not only that, but since 2010, Texas law enforcement has been running facial recognition searches on DPS license photos with its Image Verification System.

When Lieber exposed this, thanks in part to a former DPS employee (who noted the full set of prints are uploaded to AFIS [Automated Fingerprint Identification Service], creating a record in criminal databases if no previous record exists), a spokesman for the agency said it was perfectly legal plus pretty awesome at fighting crime.

A DPS spokesman tells me that the 9-year-old law makes a clear reference to fingerprints so the new fingerprint collection system is legal.

DPS spokesman Tom Vinger says, “It is important to understand that the purpose of this process is to combat fraud, identity theft and other criminal activity, including potentially thwarting terroristic activity. Making sure that people are who they say they are in the process of issuing government identification is a critical safeguard to protect the public against a wide array of criminal threats.”​

The law Vinger refers to is Transportation Code 521.059, a lengthy bit of which he quotes in a longer response to Lieber's article.

The Department is confident in its legal authority to collect 10-prints. The authority exists in current statute, including Transportation Code 521.059, (see below), and in current administrative code. The technology upgrade was funded by the Texas Legislature…

Sec. 521.059. IMAGE VERIFICATION SYSTEM. (a) The department shall establish an image verification system based on the following identifiers collected by the department:

(1) an applicant’s facial image; and
(2) an applicant’s thumbprints or fingerprints.

(b) The department shall authenticate the facial image and thumbprints or fingerprints provided by an applicant for a personal identification certificate, driver’s license, or commercial driver’s license or permit using image comparison technology to ensure that the applicant:

(1) is issued only one original license, permit, or certificate;
(2) does not fraudulently obtain a duplicate license, permit, or certificate; and
(3) does not commit other fraud in connection with the application for a license, permit, or certificate.

(c) The department shall use the image verification system established under this section only to the extent allowed by Chapter 730, Transportation Code, to aid other law enforcement agencies in:

(1) establishing the identity of a victim of a disaster or crime that a local law enforcement agency is unable to establish; or
(2) conducting an investigation of criminal conduct.

(d) Expired.

Added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 1108 (H.B. 2337), Sec. 4, eff. September 1, 2005.


Vinger may be correct that the DPS is allowed to collect prints as the result of this law, but it's not specifically ordered (or permitted) to collect all 10 prints. Note that the section quoted says "thumbprints or fingerprints." This "or" is important. A look at the actual amendments to existing law shows that the DPS isn't actually required to demand a full set of prints.

The amendments also refer to 521.042(b), which states the following:
(b) The application must include:

(1) the thumbprints of the applicant or, if thumbprints cannot be taken, the index fingerprints of the applicant;

So, there's no legal backing to Vinger's claims. Sure, the DPS is technically permitted to collect all 10 prints, but only because nothing specifically forbids this practice. But the law does not demand all 10 prints be provided in order to obtain a license or identification card. The law only asks for thumbprints or index prints.

This is why it was rolled out quietly. The DPS has no legal "authority" to demand a full set of prints before handing out a license. What it can do, however, is ask for them. At this point, supplying a full set of prints is purely voluntary. The DPS can't prevent you from obtaining a license if you refuse, but the whole system is set up to make it appear as though it's mandatory.

Even one of the legislators who crafted the bill stated the intent of the law was never to allow collecting a full set of prints from every person with a Texas drivers license.

Bill co-author Juan M. Escobar, who in 2005 was a state representative from Kingsville, said he recalled the point of his bill was to prevent immigrants living in the U.S. illegally from obtaining a driver’s license.

“I think the intent of the bill was to ensure that the individual was the right person that was applying for a driver’s license,” said Escobar, now county judge in Kleberg County. “The intent was to avoid the privacy issue violation. We’ll just do the thumbprint or the index finger. That was my intent.”

He added, “If they’ve gone past the law, there’s nothing that gives them that authority.”

Escobar mentions illegal immigration. DPS rep Vinger mentions terrorism. Both used tangential hot-button issues to further the amount of information demanded by Texas in exchange for a highly-essential part of everyday life. But the DPS is now exceeding even the questionable aspects of a law predicated mostly on fear. (As Lieber points out in the comments, even the 2005 law was partially motivated by terrorism fears, prompted by Gov. Perry's 2005 Homeland Security Action Plan. [pdf, p. 36])

The state gave the DPS the authority to collect index prints if thumbprints couldn't be obtained. For whatever reason, the DPS -- nearly a decade later -- has decided to roll out a very imaginative reading of the 2005 statute. Worse, it's claiming its interpretation of words that aren't actually there is "legal authority." And when questioned, it's falling back on "terrorism" and but-surely-you-want-criminals-to-be-caught rationalizing.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
They've been doing this for some time now. When I renewed my license in May I had to provide my finger prints.

Had to do the same thing when I got my CHL. Same to get my TWIC card as well. Navy did it twice for security clearances.

CHL - Concealed Handgun License
TWIC - Transportation Worker Identification Card
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
106
Apparently they didn't let applicants know that its voluntary to give your fingerprints and told people it was mandatory. They started loading their fingerprints into their criminal database without their knowledge.

And?

Driving is not a right, it is a privilege.

As such you have to follow whatever rules or guidelines are put into place.

Some liberal is going to come in here and make a big deal about this. Oh how dare the government ask people for their fingerprints.
 
Last edited:
Feb 16, 2005
14,074
5,438
136
And?

Driving is not a right, it is a privilege.

As such you have to follow whatever rules or guidelines are put into place.

Some liberal is going to come in here and make a big deal about this. Oh how dare the government ask people for their fingerprints.

you are definitely a conundrum, a quandary even.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
And?

Driving is not a right, it is a privilege.

As such you have to follow whatever rules or guidelines are put into place.

Some liberal is going to come in here and make a big deal about this. Oh how dare the government ask people for their fingerprints.

And when they decide to mark you with "666", you will be first in line for your tattoo.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Thumb or finger print does not include a full set getting taken and are enough to ID the applicant. There will be no one left to protest when they come for texashiker.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Apparently they didn't let applicants know that its voluntary to give your fingerprints and told people it was mandatory. They started loading their fingerprints into their criminal database without their knowledge.
-snip-


Frankly your post was too long so I didn't read it all.

I also think the article is off-based.

I'm not sure giving your fingerprints is voluntary or mandatory. I think it should be mandatory. The reason I say that is because a few years ago Congress passed a law about state issued IDs, particularly DLs.

State issued DLs are practically the gold standard and most common IDs relied upon. Congress didn't want to institute a national ID card, so they tried to make state issued ID more stringent.

Now this requirements for better 'quality' state IDs/DLs was set to go into effect at a certain deadline that has long passed. But many states received extensions due to the difficulty of adhering to the requirements.

I'm betting that's what we're seeing here: An effort to meet the requirements of that federal law and not something nefarious.

BTW: I'm pretty sure anytime your fingerprints are taken they're put into the database. The database wouldn't be near as useful if not. And yes, I believe the courts have already ruled that that's not an invasion of privacy or anything.

Fern
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
I was not given a choice when I renewed my drivers license, the software will not process the DL without clear thumb/finger prints, I had to redo my right thumb and left fingers (pinky finger wasn't clear).
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
And?

Driving is not a right, it is a privilege.

As such you have to follow whatever rules or guidelines are put into place.

Some liberal is going to come in here and make a big deal about this. Oh how dare the government ask people for their fingerprints.

Per the Supreme Court of The United States.
A person has the RIGHT to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others.

As long as you are not using a vehicle for hire you do not have to have a drivers license.


Right to Travel
CASE #1: "The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.

It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: "The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: "The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

Since 1986? they have refused to hear any more cases on the subject.

.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,212
16,499
136
So a database of gun owners is bad but a database including fingerprints for a DL is ok?
For a conspiracy theorist you guys sure seem to lack an imagination on why both would be bad or lead to bad things. Maybe your handlers haven't spelled it out for you yet...probably because they don't have a DL themselves.

Oh well, I don't follow your logic which, I guess, is why I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
So a database of gun owners is bad but a database including fingerprints for a DL is ok?
For a conspiracy theorist you guys sure seem to lack an imagination on why both would be bad or lead to bad things. Maybe your handlers haven't spelled it out for you yet...probably because they don't have a DL themselves.

Oh well, I don't follow your logic which, I guess, is why I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Guess you missed the part where Concealed Handgun License holders in Texas must also provide a full set of prints.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
So a database of gun owners is bad but a database including fingerprints for a DL is ok?
For a conspiracy theorist you guys sure seem to lack an imagination on why both would be bad or lead to bad things. Maybe your handlers haven't spelled it out for you yet...probably because they don't have a DL themselves.

Oh well, I don't follow your logic which, I guess, is why I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Please do explain how a database on DLs with or without fingerprints could be bad.

Fern
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,212
16,499
136
Guess you missed the part where Concealed Handgun License holders in Texas must also provide a full set of prints.

I guess you missed the part where I said the conspiracy theorists believe a database for gun owners is bad.

Just in case you still don't get it; what the law is and what they believe, are unrelated.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,212
16,499
136
Please do explain how a database on DLs with or without fingerprints could be bad.

Fern

I'd have to concoct a conspiracy on the same level as those that also think a database of gun owners is bad.


Sorry, I don't do conspiracies.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
I guess you missed the part where I said the conspiracy theorists believe a database for gun owners is bad.

Just in case you still don't get it; what the law is and what they believe, are unrelated.

Why should there be a database of gun owners? Gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right.

Being able to drive on state roads or having a concealed handgun license/concealed weapons permit is a state regulated privilege.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
Want a driver's license in Texas? We need your finger prints.

Want to run a business in Texas? You can neglect your factory to the point where it blows up and kills some of your workers.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,556
30,777
146
And?

Driving is not a right, it is a privilege.

As such you have to follow whatever rules or guidelines are put into place.

Some liberal is going to come in here and make a big deal about this. Oh how dare the government ask people for their fingerprints.

I am curious what your response would be if it was a state like California doing this or, maybe, Illinois, from where your favorite president was weaned.

:hmm:
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,574
7,672
136
Per the Supreme Court of The United States.
A person has the RIGHT to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others.

As long as you are not using a vehicle for hire you do not have to have a drivers license.


Right to Travel
CASE #1: "The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: "The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.

It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: "The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: "The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

Since 1986? they have refused to hear any more cases on the subject.

.

Interesting, do you have a drives license?

.