Testing Nvidia vs. AMD Image Quality

[tannat]

You just need to think of [H]'s testing as showing which card provides better IQ not which card provides better FPS. They pick a target FPS and see which card can turn on more settings, rather than picking a target setting and see which can provide more FPS.

Either method suffers when a card is exceptionally slow or fast at a specific effect or combination of effects so you can never get an all encompassing measure of performance anyway because no review site has enough time to test a game with every combination of resolution, AA, AF, DoF, tessellation, HDR, etc.

Most sites only change AA settings between benches, which means you only learn how much of a hit AA causes on a card. If a card crawls at 4xAA and max settings, but turning off just DoF suddenly makes it playable, that's not something you'll usually find out on a non-[H] review.

By testing with AA on and off it's designated as the least important effect. Personally I find DoF and HDR the least important and would rather see tests with 4x AA and optional DoF/HDR.

This is a good point. Both reviews with canned benches and [H] use (by necessity) a certain priority order for increasing image quality. This order we may have different opinions on and may also be quite different depending on game. While [H] may not hit the sweetspot order that may everynoe happy they at least try to cut a meaningful path through this jungle towards playability versus IQ.

What I don't understand and objected to was the notion that people would prefer [H] due to some possible "subjectivity" when the choice is to avoid meaningles measurements as canned benches that repeatedly show themselves to be in best case highly noisy on the verge of randomness when compared between sites. In worst case the benches are only showing the optimization/secret reduction in image quality a card maker have made for the bench only.

Just because noise is easy to repeat it does not mean that it isn't noise.

 

[NoQuarter]

This is a good point. Both reviews with canned benches and [H] use (by necessity) a certain priority order for increasing image quality. This order we may have different opinions on and may also be quite different depending on game. While [H] may not hit the sweetspot order that may everynoe happy they at least try to cut a meaningful path through this jungle towards playability versus IQ.

What I don't understand and objected to was the notion that people would prefer [H] due to some possible "subjectivity" when the choice is to avoid meaningles measurements as canned benches that repeatedly show themselves to be in best case highly noisy on the verge of randomness when compared between sites. In worst case the benches are only showing the optimization/secret reduction in image quality a card maker have made for the bench only.

Just because noise is easy to repeat it does not mean that it isn't noise.

Oh yea, I agree a lot with your post, wasn't really directing my post at you. I meant "You" as in everyone, but especially RussianSensation, I just didn't want to dig up a specific post to reply to

The most important part of their reviews to me is that they don't use canned benches, and hardwarecanucks now as well.

 

[SirPauly]

You're mixing things. The differences in the IQ is according to several reports minimal and usually not noticeable. And you can adjust it with a slider if you want. We are talking about 5% in some old games.

I don't think you can expect people to become very upset over this. Especially when nvidia is the key source and Keysplayr is handing out the torches, indignant and with only the truth in mind...

It would be stupid to join the lynch mob so obviously manipulated by nvidia. If the IQ effects were large and the intent was obvious then maybe...

And the comparison with [H] I don't understand. I know that some people like to call their testing procedure subjective but that's definitely not why they are so valuable...

They do focus on relevant parameters (gameplay) instead of easily manipulated noise (canned benches). Even if they would need to use a stopwatch instead of a labview setup we are not really talking subjective as compared to objective. This is choice of relevant parameter.

If you say that the people who like to check in videocard tests at [H] are the same that do not let themself be easily incited by obvious spins?
This may be true, I never thought about it in that way.

I'm not a fan of downplaying and offering sayings like lynch mob. The amazing part, the 58XX series had hardware issues with mip-mapping in higher noise textures -- this is from AMD. It was your so-called lynch mobs that brought this to the attention to many gamers because it was their findings.

It's always healthy for sites to investigate hard and share their findings; as it is for gamers.

 

[tannat]

I'm not a fan of downplaying and offering sayings like lynch mob. The amazing part, the 58XX series had hardware issues with mip-mapping in higher noise textures -- this is from AMD. It was your so-called lynch mobs that brought this to the attention to many gamers because it was their findings.

It's always healthy for sites to investigate hard and share their findings; as it is for gamers.

That' not what I said anyway. To critically review, investigate and scrutinize parameters as IQ is only of good. It's just good to keep a level headed approach to it, avoid to let the original intentions and results be twisted or blown out of proportions. Especially when some of the sources have interest and history of doing so.

 

[SirPauly]

What exactly is blown out of proportion?

What is twisted?

These are very sound, impressive web-sites offering the data.

 

[Xarick]

I'm not a fan of downplaying and offering sayings like lynch mob. The amazing part, the 58XX series had hardware issues with mip-mapping in higher noise textures -- this is from AMD. It was your so-called lynch mobs that brought this to the attention to many gamers because it was their findings.

It's always healthy for sites to investigate hard and share their findings; as it is for gamers.

Which in my opinion the never should have done. 99% of gamers never noticed this. People who play trackmania were the most effected. In most games this banding is not noticeable and telling people hey it is there watch out for it was not a good idea.

 

[SirPauly]

http://ht4u.net/reviews/2010/amd_radeon_hd_6800_reloaded/index11.php

 

[tannat]

What exactly is blown out of proportion?

What is twisted?

These are very sound, impressive web-sites offering the data.

I'm talking about the spin from the results. You're talking sources.

 

[Xarick]

I like that site.. everyone ignores the guy on the back of the walkway on nvidia cards to harp on the shimmering on the ati on the walkway (which is there)

 

[Keysplayr]

"and telling people hey it is there watch out for it was not a good idea."

"I like that site.. everyone ignores the guy on the back of the walkway on nvidia cards to harp on the shimmering on the ati on the walkway (which is there)"

So, you posted the above without believing a word of it yourself?

With almost one post on top of another, the first says you believe it wasn't a good idea to make a barely visible problem (subjective) known out there. Next breath, you ask people to look away from the walkway and pay attention to the dude walking on the walkway. So, one can deduct from this that you aren't really bothered by people getting anything out there to the public, just as long as it isn't about AMD.

Feel free to break a ruler over my fingers if I'm wrong here.

 

[KCfromNC]

"I don't know much German so I decided to post this feedback here in English because I feel it's pretty important. I do not know much German so I decided to post this feedback here in English because I feel it's pretty important.

When using 3DCenter Filter Tester and NVIDIA card it seems that even when using renamed .exe HQ filtering quality is always forced on. When using filter tester 3DCenter NVIDIA card and it seems that even when using renamed. Exe HQ filtering quality is always forced on. Here's the proof: Here's the proof: "

From the 3dcenter link I posted before. Has anyone else looked into this? Apparently in that filter test that shows AMD HQ on par only with Nvidia Quality, that Nvidia Quality is really HQ because somehow Nvidia forces HQ on this test. They seem unsure if it is a driver bug.

Awfully big coincidence that NV introduced a bug that magically helps exactly those tests used by "independent" web sites to conclude that NV quality == ATI high quality. Even more so when NV marketing and "independent" focus group members do all they can to spread the results of those tests. Makes you wonder just how worried NV is about the upcoming AMD 69xx parts if they have to resort to tricks like this.

 

[ArchAngel777]

So, you posted the above without believing a word of it yourself?

With almost one post on top of another, the first says you believe it wasn't a good idea to make a barely visible problem (subjective) known out there. Next breath, you ask people to look away from the walkway and pay attention to the dude walking on the walkway. So, one can deduct from this that you aren't really bothered by people getting anything out there to the public, just as long as it isn't about AMD.

Feel free to break a ruler over my fingers if I'm wrong here.

You read way too much into things... Get some sleep man. You don't have to spend all day defending nVidia in the AT Forums. The company will survive without you.

 

[Keysplayr]

You read way too much into things... Get some sleep man. You don't have to spend all day defending nVidia in the AT Forums. The company will survive without you.

Or perhaps, and more likely, you're not reading into things enough.
Pray tell. You explain it then.

 

[MrK6]

Or perhaps, and more likely, you're not reading into things enough.
Pray tell. You explain it then.

Not all of us are Green with Envy (tm).

 

[Keysplayr]

That's good to know. But what would be even greater, is to know exactly what it is you think anyone has to be envious of? And what would even prompt this sort of response?
Yes, these are two questions.

 

[Xarick]

So, you posted the above without believing a word of it yourself?

With almost one post on top of another, the first says you believe it wasn't a good idea to make a barely visible problem (subjective) known out there. Next breath, you ask people to look away from the walkway and pay attention to the dude walking on the walkway. So, one can deduct from this that you aren't really bothered by people getting anything out there to the public, just as long as it isn't about AMD.

Feel free to break a ruler over my fingers if I'm wrong here.

I was more speaking to the rings on the ground (like in trackmania. Rings I did not notice until someone pointed them out in other games) not the shimmering. Shimmering and filter optimizations I would like to see fixed. But I do not like people attacking one side without pointing to the errors on the other.
I want fair apples to apples. If you are going to say AMD has filtering ops that cause shimmer I only want to see in the same comparison this is what Nvidia does. If one is perfect great! that is the card I want. But neither seem to be.

But your right. If it bothers me so bad that people point the first thing out then it doesn't make sense for me to turn and do the same. touche'

 

[Skurge]

. So, one can deduct from this that you aren't really bothered by people getting anything out there to the public, just as long as it isn't about AMD.

Xarick is one of the few unbiased people on this forum. The only time you see a problem with what he posts in this thread is only when it doesn't praise nV or bash AMD? :hmm:

 

[MrK6]

That's good to know. But what would be even greater, is to know exactly what it is you think anyone has to be envious of? And what would even prompt this sort of response?
Yes, these are two questions.

You've had countless people call you out on your trolling and you still haven't gotten it. I'd say you one-upped Rollo by getting a position of power before you started this crap. So far in the thread you've ignored or dismissed every NVIDIA-based rendering optimization issue, but have alluded to every AMD issue as cheating. People with half a brain realize that both companies have issues with certain forms of rendering or games, or sometimes their driver tweaks aren't applied properly globally. So what is it: are you blatantly trolling or are you insulting the intelligence of this community?

 

[Keysplayr]

Well then that makes two of us. Cause I'm not getting answers to my questions either, such as the two you just blew off.
Does this mean you are just as much a troll as you accuse me of being? Get a grip and calm yourself down. If you are calm, then make me believe it when I read your posts. The "Green with envy comments are pretty juvenile and I can't see anyone being proud of that.

 

[Grooveriding]

You've had countless people call you out on your trolling and you still haven't gotten it. I'd say you one-upped Rollo by getting a position of power before you started this crap. So far in the thread you've ignored or dismissed every NVIDIA-based rendering optimization issue, but have alluded to every AMD issue as cheating. People with half a brain realize that both companies have issues with certain forms of rendering or games, or sometimes their driver tweaks aren't applied properly globally. So what is it: are you blatantly trolling or are you insulting the intelligence of this community?

I'd say your post is bit harsh.

But, what is interesting is when nvidia sent the focus group members out into the wilds to spread this pr on tech forums, Rollo was the one to make the same post as this one at the guru3d forums.

They locked the post rapidly as it was a repost of issues already being discussed in other threads but being recycled to be put across as pro nv anti amd as this thread is.

Oddly this thread is also a repost of issues that are already being discussed in other threads.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2107647&highlight=issue+filtering

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2117420&highlight=quality

Best bet is to report this thread as a repost and nvidia pr and hope it gets locked.

 

[Dribble]

Best bet is to report this thread as a repost and nvidia pr and hope it gets locked.

The best bet is to completely ignore it and set keys on ignore. Posts no one replies too go off the front page pretty fast. If other people still reply well then it's obviously a valid topic because people want to discuss it - doesn't mean you need to read it, you can still ignore it.

The fact that you are reading the thread you don't want to exist, and trying to kill by mod intervention because from what I can tell you don't like nvidia/keys makes you at least as biased keys is meant to be.

 

[Grooveriding]

The best bet is to completely ignore it and set keys on ignore. Posts no one replies too go off the front page pretty fast. If other people still reply well then it's obviously a valid topic because people want to discuss it - doesn't mean you need to read it, you can still ignore it.

The fact that you are reading the thread you don't want to exist, and trying to kill by mod intervention because from what I can tell you don't like nvidia/keys makes you at least as biased keys is meant to be.

I posted two threads where there was valid conversation being conducted on the exact same topic, before this thread was made.

Before attacking my post, at least take the time to comprehend the English contained within it.

I'm hardly biased, I make a point of not being biased. I don't operate as a sheep when I am being a consumer.

 

[Stoneburner]

Is BFG going to be looking into this? I asked keys if any new games have decreased visual quality. I received no answer. I asked the germans if they tested modern games and they demanded lebensraum and now the polish government is collapsing.

This thread has gone no where but I think it has highlighted a key problem: There are no set objective parameters for measuring Image Quality. Until there is some at least partially objective measure of image quality that's widely accepted, then it's difficult to state what is ACCEPTABLE image quality.

In addition, I don't see a problem if these settings are entirely optional. If AMD is giving people the option of a 2 percent visual quality decrease with a 10 percent performance increase, some people may take that (especially FPS players online).

BOTTOM LINE: What's the beef here?

BTW, this thread is making me miss far cry (the original)

 

[Xarick]

BFG is smart enough not to get involved in this.

 

[Stoneburner]

BFG is smart enough not to get involved in this.

So, one of the few people who is qualified to give an authoritative statement on this issue will avoid doing so because he doesn't want to be caught in a fanboi shitstorm.

That's a very sad state of affairs.