terrorist attack in Orlando gay club - 50 dead, another 53 wounded

[brycejones]

Should we help people who are on this path or just people who have a certain color skin?

What do you think would be the right thing to do? WWJS?

 

[Artdeco]

Abrahamic theologies from back in the day tends to be more similar to each other than to modern thinking; the success stories like western europe / US are places where theology have adapted to modernity. In other words, this isn't a matter of what the words in the book say but how far along people have come to break from inherent backwardness of the species.

Historically speaking, current western nations (where the "christians" are) are maybe a hundred years ahead in development than most of the middle east (where most of the muslims are), though progress has sped up in modern times.

The greater point here should be that America as a country was populated by people who desired a break from the past and sought opportunity afar. For the most part it wasn't the successful cultured gentry looking to leave everything behind. Regardless of those origins of everyone here, hating on the noobs appears a time honored tradition.

Folks with some introspective ability should see that for what it is.

Except my grandfather didn't walk into a bar and kill 49 people.

 

[jackstar7]

Except my grandfather didn't walk into a bar and kill 49 people.

Anecdotes are just like evidence, but more feels!

 

[Artdeco]

Anecdotes are just like evidence, but more feels!

And many Muslims need another 100 years to mellow out before they can play well with others.

 

[jackstar7]

And many Muslims need another 100 years to mellow out before they can play well with others.

What do you want to do about that?

 

[MongGrel]

Regardless of those origins of everyone here, hating on the noobs appears a time honored tradition.

Actually, I liked your posts when you first showed up, before you went into a constant state of self centered, "I don't give a shit about what anyone says because of what I think" type of mode.

You went backwards fast, instead of trying to listen to what anyone says on topics they know about, you want to rant on mindlessly.

 

[agent00f]

Except my grandfather didn't walk into a bar and kill 49 people.

Not in this particular case. But consider there was some white dude with a history stopped by the cops for going to a pride parade with a bunch of guns & bomb materials on the same day. It's entirely possible things went the other way, with Omar stopped and this other guy successful and frankly nobody would be surprised.

This shooting stands out among the many every year in part due to the number of dead (but mostly due to a muslim shooter), but really it's kind of unfair to criticize someone for being particularly competent.

And many Muslims need another 100 years to mellow out before they can play well with others.

I would say people who need guns to feel secure in their masculinity are similarly behind the times.

 

[MongGrel]

Not in this particular case. But consider there was some white dude with a history stopped by the cops for going to a pride parade with a bunch of guns & bomb materials on the same day. It's entirely possible things went the other way, with Omar stopped and this other guy successful and frankly nobody would be surprised.

This shooting stands out among the many every year in part due to the number of dead (but mostly due to a muslim shooter), but really it's kind of unfair to criticize someone for being particularly competent.



I would say people who need guns to feel secure in their masculinity are similarly behind the times.

Later dude, fail.

Start hanging out with Buckshot or something.

 

[Paratus]

+1

Some people on the forum seem like plants or are incredibly ignorant to begin with, but I was warned about a few when I joined.

It just does not wear off over time in some cases, it appears.

Posting in P&N has definitely been eye opening to me. Good and bad.

That's a pretty good analogy, in some ways. If one is poor, living in the ghetto, attending shit schools where success simply means you survive, and especially if one is also black, then one faces an uphill climb to succeed to a middle class standard, and what might be a minor stumble in an affluent person can end any practical chance of success, or at least send one far back down the ladder. Anyone in America can make it, but the difficulty varies by many orders of magnitude.

I'm glad my point pretty much came through. :thumbsup:

Should we help people who are on this path or just people who have a certain color skin?

The purpose of society is to smooth the path for everyone, (food, water, shelter, safety, etc). But ask yourself this, does every group and everyone require the same amount and type of help?

 

[jackstar7]

The purpose of society is to smooth the path for everyone, (food, water, shelter, safety, etc). But ask yourself this, does every group and everyone require the same amount and type of help?

It's funny to me that Buckshot doesn't want to see help based on race, but he also doesn't seem to want to see help based on class either.

 

[Jaskalas]

And many Muslims need another 100 years to mellow out before they can play well with others.

What do you want to do about that?

Separation. That culture gets to kill people in their homes, not ours.
Immigration and importation ends.

 

[jackstar7]

Separation. That culture gets to kill people in their homes, not ours.
Immigration and importation ends.

Never going to happen. And really just not very patriotic, I must say.

I suppose the obvious responses to this sort of irrational behavior (terrorism and associated violence) are other irrational behaviors though (xenophobia and isolationism).

 

[Paratus]

It's funny to me that Buckshot doesn't want to see help based on race, but he also doesn't seem to want to see help based on class either.

While no one can say for certain what Buckshot believes many folks seem to be tied to the just world fallacy. We all grow up with stories about how if you are a good person and work hard good things will happen for you. It's a good story and has a lot of truth behind it. If you don't work hard and aren't a good person then bad things happen to you.

Makes it easy to feel good about yourself and to judge others. I'm a good person and work hard so I deserve every good thing that happens to me. You are poor, since you wouldn't be poor if you didn't deserve it you must be lazy and irresponsible.

The problem of course is the world isn't just. One persons level of effort in one set of circumstances may be enough to be successful but another person with twice the effort in a different set of circumstances may fail horribly. Some people can't handle that. That bad things could happen to them for reasons beyond their control.

They don't want to hear that neuroscience shows that under stress we perform under a cognitive deficit. Stress releases hormones like adrenal and cortisol. This was fine for our ancestors who only had to deal with them for a minute or two at the time because they either died or escaped. Today the fears are in our head and can last months or years.

Tell them that science shows that people exhibit stress when poor and when discriminated against they'll call you a SJW.

Tell them that through slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc that the government kept generations of its minority citizens from getting ahead and they'll call you a bleeding heart.

Why? Because you don't help bad people. You help good people.

I feel until you know someone and the circumstances they are in you can't make a sweeping generalization about whether they deserve those circumstances or not. Whether they are a good or bad person and deserve help

 

[woolfe9998]

Separation. That culture gets to kill people in their homes, not ours.
Immigration and importation ends.

You realize that in the early 20th century Italian immigrants were often reviled? In part because the mafia came with them, they were considered criminals, and viewed as a different race. I wonder how many people have been killed by the mafia in this country. Could have been prevented if we had disallowed immigration of all Italians. Should we have shut off the immigration spigot back then? Who knows how many criminals came into the country along with the law abiding immigrants...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/opinion/falco-italian-immigrants/

 

[pcgeek11]

Point is, this time every 4 years people fire up their ALTs in a desperate attempt to make it look like their opinion is more valid and validated by their yes-man alt accounts. Predictable, pathetic, and boring...

Pretty assuming on your part.

 

[flexy]

Makes it easy to feel good about yourself and to judge others. I'm a good person and work hard so I deserve every good thing that happens to me. You are poor, since you wouldn't be poor if you didn't deserve it you must be lazy and irresponsible.

The irony here is that people who AT FIRST GLANCE seem to "feel good about themselves" and who are ranting off against "leechers", the unemployed, people on welfare etc. *ARE* actually not feeling good about themselves.

The hate against "leechers" and the allegedly lazy poor can only come up if someone is not happy with their own life, financial situation etc. and sees the others as a constant threat "who only want my money". "THIS IS NOT FAIR" thinking.

If someone has enough money to live a satisfied life, someone who feels truly rewarded for their actual hard work they might be doing, is not likely to have a "THIS IS NOT FAIR" mindset. There is no reason for it.

Those who judge others that way are therefore most often actual hard working low-wage earners, or lower middle class, people who "somehow get by" but are not rich by a long-shot, aka typical Trump supporters.

 

[jackstar7]

Back to guns:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/06/27/after-orlando-examining-the-gun-business

 

[ivwshane]

Did I hear this right? No body was shot until the police/swat went in? My concern and question would be; did people die because of friendly fire?

Since this thread has been thoroughly derailed I'll answer my own question. The answer is no, that is not what happened. Apparently he killed/shot everyone before the police showed up, then the only does that were fired were from the police shooting at the killer.

 

[Triloby]

You realize that in the early 20th century Italian immigrants were often reviled? In part because the mafia came with them, they were considered criminals, and viewed as a different race. I wonder how many people have been killed by the mafia in this country. Could have been prevented if we had disallowed immigration of all Italians. Should we have shut off the immigration spigot back then? Who knows how many criminals came into the country along with the law abiding immigrants...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/10/opinion/falco-italian-immigrants/

Funnily enough, we did pass an act banning Chinese immigrants to the United States for quite awhile in the 1880's, but not because of criminal reasons. Needless to say, this was the first and only time in U.S. history that we tried to limit immigration from a specific nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

 

[werepossum]

What? What regularity? Violently? And refugees... it's a messed up situation. But if I get what you're implying, you'd rather keep out some number of perfectly benevolent refugees who are then forced to endure continued nightmares vs letting in... one? some other number? What's the ratio of "evil-doers" we can permit to also take in those most desperately in need of sanctuary?

From where is the sense that not only do Muslims not support homosexuality, but that they want them all dead coming?

Yes, I would rather keep out "some number of perfectly benevolent refugees" than let in one terrorist. Much the same as the left would like to take away all guns so that bad people supposedly won't have them either. (One big difference: Muslims secretly imported weapons for the terrorists to strike in France and Belgium. There is zero evidence of guns ever secretly importing terrorists.) Two points though. First, you are lumping together all Muslims. Why? There are tons of Muslims in nations like Indonesia and Malaysia, nations where governments are reasonably aligned with us, both capable and willing to be honest partners with us to search out radicals in those asking to emigrate. Governments that don't execute homosexuals or persecute Christians and Jews, mainly because the populace would not tolerate it. Why lump in such nations with Syria or Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan simply because they share a religion?

Second, refugees are inherently different from willing immigrants. Refugees are fleeing violence or other misery. They are running FROM, not TO. Consequently they value America (or Europe) only for the relative safety. Such people tend to cling to their culture, and insist their children do the same, because they never wanted to abandon it. They feel bereft, torn out of place. Consequently they tend to dislike America (and Europe) for being different - they wanted safe, not different. These are the people who tend to stay isolated. Often their children are the ones who radicalize, because within radical Islam, they find the sense of home they cannot otherwise get. This is a problem not only with war refugees, but with those fleeing economic hardship as well. We also see this with Mexican and Central/South American immigrants, especially illegals - they want to make their new nation just like their old one, only better - but to a much lesser extent because they don't have a religion that tells them that everyone around them needs to be dead or enslaved. They don't have clergy telling them that they are living inside the Great Satan. (And to be fair, our culture incorporates much more of Southern North/Central/South American culture, so naturally people from those cultures are going to feel more comfortable here.)

There's a fine line between wanting to immigrate to gain greater opportunity and wanting to immigrate to escape an intolerable situation, but it makes a huge difference in attitude.

Anecdotes are just like evidence, but more feels!

Evidence? How about 49 body bags?

 

[woolfe9998]

Evidence? How about 49 body bags?

I'm pretty sure by anecdote, he meant that this was one Muslim who went on a killing spree. I agree that is an anecdote, if the point is to generalize from an incident like this to justify immigration policies that affect a rather large group of people. It is evidence of course, just of the anecdotal sort, which severely limits its value.

 

[buckshot24]

The purpose of society is to smooth the path for everyone, (food, water, shelter, safety, etc). But ask yourself this, does every group and everyone require the same amount and type of help?

Of course not. Did you have an actual answer to my question?

 

[buckshot24]

It's funny to me that Buckshot doesn't want to see help based on race, but he also doesn't seem to want to see help based on class either.

Where do you get that idea from?

 

[buckshot24]

I'm pretty sure by anecdote, he meant that this was one Muslim who went on a killing spree. I agree that is an anecdote, if the point is to generalize from an incident like this to justify immigration policies that affect a rather large group of people. It is evidence of course, just of the anecdotal sort, which severely limits its value.

Do you think we should import people who believe suicide bombing is sometimes justified?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Do you think we should import people who believe suicide bombing is sometimes justified?

To be fair, it is kind of how this country was formed.