Teenager shot dead after playing loud music

[Londo_Jowo]

In the meantime, Dunn is hardly the first murder defendant to claim he saw a gun and acted in self defense, and then no such gun is ever found. Go look up that case law and precedent and get back to us.

Yet the Dunn is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The police not securing the area and/or searching for a potential weapon or something that could look like one for 4 days could very well cause doubt in the jury's mind.

 

[Geosurface]

I'm going to say there's a 90% chance of Dunn being convicted of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter and 10% chance of acquittal.

Sounds about right.

Yet the Dunn is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The police not securing the area and/or searching for a potential weapon or something that could look like one for 4 days could very well cause doubt in the jury's mind.

Agreed.

 

[blankslate]

Mr. Dunn, fired shots at the vehicle as it was leaving. Then he didn't report the shooting to the police. I guess CCW licenses don't require you to do that in Florida.


Yeah, this being Florida Mr. Dunn could very well be found not guilty.

then we'll then well see the party down celebratory frat boy attitude that we saw last year.

who knows maybe some inbred asshat will demand a forum thread title change as well.



....

 

[Vic]

I readily and completely acknowledge Dunn might be a psycho, racist, asshole killer who went "Dirty Harry" on these kids and lied about them having a gun.

Definitely a possibility.

Can you acknowledge that they could've had a gun or he could've thought they did (and they might've even wanted him to think they did) and that they might've made real, credible threats on his life (even if they meant them only to intimidate and seem tough to one another) and that he COULD HAVE fired in self-defense?

Sorry but no. There is simply no compelling evidence that the kids had a gun or made credible threats. I do readily acknowledge the high likelihood of insults and racial slurs, etc but those aren't justification and I sincerely doubt they were one sided.

Look, he panicked and he screwed up. People do that every day. He could have deescalated the situation by driving off but instead he reached for his gun and started shooting.
And as with the texting in the theater incident, that's the crux of the issue for me. I'm a gun owner and I frequently carry, but I recognize that with this freedom comes responsibility. First and foremost is the responsibility to prevent a shooting if at all possible. Dunn didn't that here.. not even close.

 

[Geosurface]

who knows maybe some asshat will demand a forum thread title change as well.

What was the original title of the Zimmerman thread?

Sorry but no.

Not even like, a 5% chance?

 

[TerryMathews]

who knows maybe some inbred asshat will demand a forum thread title change as well.

I see youre still doubling down on stupid. You're adorable.

 

[blankslate]

What was the original title of the Zimmerman thread?

It has the original title.

The mods didn't demand a change as they (as far as I know) felt the thread title was accurate and not deliberately misleading given the information available to the poster when it was created.


Sorry but I just wasn't aware that having skittles, a can of tea and being near a sidewalk qualifies you as "armed" in some peoples' minds.



.....

 

[Geosurface]

It has the original title.

Sorry but I just wasn't aware that having skittles, a can of tea and being near a sidewalk qualifies you as "armed" in some peoples' minds.

So someone took issue with "unarmed" in the title, but were unsuccessful in getting it changed? Is that what you're saying?

Btw, I agree Trayvon was unarmed. I just don't find that fact to be particularly illuminating about what happened.

I see youre still doubling down on stupid. You're adorable.

Can you fill me in?

 

[blankslate]

Btw, I agree Trayvon was unarmed. I just don't find that fact to be particularly illuminating about what happened.

Well, in my opinion the prosecution did overcharge that case.

Given the verdict on that case and the apparent differences with the one in this thread, it's probably best to just stick to the one this thread is about.

But I'm not indifferent to your curiosity.



.....

 

[bshole]

Look it doesn't matter if the witness can't specifically say "I saw them dig a hole behind these xy coordinates and bury a remington shotgun approximately 2 feet in the soft earth"


All that matters is reasonable doubt. And for a crew running with felons, who are being accused of pointing a shotgun at someone, the mere fact that a witness saw them "maybe stash something" is absolutely enough to cause reasonable doubt.

You really think you are going to get a jury to believe that a bunch of thugs with a shotgun would let themselves get shot at AND DO NOTHING? What planet are you on. Have you ever ONCE in your life heard of ARMED black gang bangers not shooting back when shot at? The fact that the shooter's guts were not sprayed all over the asphalt is ALL the evidence I need that the black "thugs" were unarmed.

 

[Geosurface]

You really think you are going to get a jury to believe that a bunch of thugs with a shotgun would let themselves get shot at AND DO NOTHING? What planet are you on. Have you ever ONCE in your life heard of ARMED black gang bangers not shooting back when shot at? The fact that the shooter's guts were not sprayed all over the asphalt is ALL the evidence I need that the black "thugs" were unarmed.

Unless, of course, none of them had actually ever shot the thing before and Jordan just knew where it was kept in the guy's truck, and grabbed it on an impulse thinking he could just scare this old cracka by flashing it, never having any intention of actually firing it.

Atmosphere within truck goes from turning down the music to "nah fuck that, turn that shit back up, who this bitch think he is?" and escalates, and escalates (rapidly) as each of the three who are in the truck (driver was inside at this time) is spurred on by the bluster of the other two and a desire to outdo them, prove they are even more of a badass.

Until Jordan remembers the driver keeps a sawed off shotty under the passenger seat, reaches down, grabs it, without pausing to consider how bad of an idea this is, and points it out the window in the hopes that the result is the three of them laughing their asses off two minutes hence about "did you see that white bitch's face? I think he musta shit himself! He peeled out of here so fast!" and again, never having intended to actually fire it. If it was even loaded.

Instead, unexpectedly the cracka has pulled a pistol and is UNLOADING on the truck. Not even most hardened special ops soldiers are going to willingly just remain in the line of fire and try to counter the barrage by blasting the shooter with their own gun. Every instinct in anyone's mind and body is going to be to DUCK and get low in the truck's back seat when those bullets start coming in. This is assuming the first couple rounds didn't outright hit Jordan anyway.

You honestly think someone is going to stay in the most dangerous position possible and return fire instead of ducking? Especially if they hadn't ever intended to fire?

In the end, what the defense and prosecution can get the jury to entertain/believe is going to depend very heavily on the racial composition of said jury. Which is twisted, sick, ridiculous, and a huge piece of evidence of how stupid a multicultural society is to deliberately pursue.

 

[spidey07]

Unless, of course, none of them had actually ever shot the thing before and Jordan just knew where it was kept in the guy's truck, and grabbed it on an impulse thinking he could just scare this old cracka by flashing it, never having any intention of actually firing it.

Atmosphere within truck goes from turning down the music to "nah fuck that, turn that shit back up, who this bitch think he is?" and escalates, and escalates (rapidly) as each of the three who are in the truck (driver was inside at this time) is spurred on by the bluster of the other two and a desire to outdo them, prove they are even more of a badass.

Until Jordan remembers the driver keeps a sawed off shotty under the passenger seat, reaches down, grabs it, without pausing to consider how bad of an idea this is, and points it out the window in the hopes that the result is the three of them laughing their asses off two minutes hence about "did you see that white bitch's face? I think he musta shit himself! He peeled out of here so fast!" and again, never having intended to actually fire it. If it was even loaded.

Instead, unexpectedly the cracka has pulled a pistol and is UNLOADING on the truck. Not even most hardened special ops soldiers are going to willingly just remain in the line of fire and try to counter the barrage by blasting the shooter with their own gun. Every instinct in anyone's mind and body is going to be to DUCK and get low in the truck's back seat when those bullets start coming in. This is assuming the first couple rounds didn't outright hit Jordan anyway.

You honestly think someone is going to stay in the most dangerous position possible and return fire instead of ducking? Especially if they hadn't ever intended to fire?

In the end, what the defense and prosecution can get the jury to entertain/believe is going to depend very heavily on the racial composition of said jury. Which is twisted, sick, ridiculous, and a huge piece of evidence of how stupid a multicultural society is to deliberately pursue.

That's exactly what I think happened and is the most logical scenario. Coupled with verbal threats of death or great bodily harm to the honorable mr Dunn

 

[Geosurface]

And of course I understand that I am totally in the realm of conjecture here but I'm just putting forth a scenario which I think is consistent with teenage mindset, consistent with Dunn's account, and would explain why they didn't return fire, gun wasn't found, etc.

Explaining what might've happened after isn't too hard. Apparently the driver (the one with the felonies) came out of the store at some point during this argument and had gotten behind the wheel, hence their ability to drive off when Dunn started firing...

So, Dunn drives off and these guys are assessing what the hell has just happened. OMG Jordan is hit! He's fucking bleeding to death back here! What should we do? Drive to the hospital? Call 911? Did the store already call 911? What the hell happened? I went inside for two minutes and you guys get in a gunfight?

"This guy asked us to turn down the music and Jordan got upset and was going off on the guy, then he just grabs your shotty and points it at him to scare this fool"

Imagine what you'd think once you realized that your gun, which you illegally have, is in the car, the cops are on the way, and if the driver knew enough about the law he might've also known he could actually be on the hook for Jordan's death. Regardless of knowing that though, he'd know there was deep shit heading his way if the cops show up and find that gun.

So the remaining 3 are talking a mile a minute at this point and their stress levels are absolute maximum. The driver knows the gun has to be gotten rid of and they don't have a lot of time. They've already driven part of the way over to this nearby parking lot, and he sees a trash can or bushes or something. They get out to check on Jordan, etc, and the driver ditches the gun without drawing too much attention to doing so. Then they drive back to where they'd been parked.

If this or anything like this happened, they've got 4 days for that gun to disappear one way or another from that spot. Tons of ways it could happen. Someone finds it and takes it, it's in the trash and the trash gets picked up, they return there later that night after they've been released from questioning at the station and retrieve it themselves. The crime scene would be closed up and the cops gone by some time late that night I'm sure.

Or, as has been suggested, one of them texts or calls a brother or a friend or whatever. Impresses upon them in as few words as possible how unless they want me/us to be in prison for years, get your ass out here and pick up this shotgun we put in the bushes, or whatever.

Again, I realize I'm very deep into conjecture land here but I just feel that those who are acting like there is NO WAY something like this happened could benefit from having it laid out in detail how it COULD have happened.

 

[mugs]

You honestly think someone is going to stay in the most dangerous position possible and return fire instead of ducking?

Our hero on the other hand, knowing that one of the occupants of the SUV threatened him with a shotgun actually got out of his vehicle and presented himself as a target so he could continue shooting at the SUV as it fled. The bravery on this guy, get him out of jail and give him a medal.

Unless... huh, you know what? Maybe there was no shotgun, as all of the evidence indicates. Then it would have been a little safer for our hero to get out of his vehicle and continue shooting at the "thugs" who dared to talk back to him (one witness claimed Dunn said "You can't talk to me that way" and another claimed it was "You can't talk to me like that").

While you concoct scenarios to explain how they might have had a gun, I'm just going by the evidence that we have. I have to ask you, why is it so important to you that Dunn is not guilty? Why are you so willing to ignore the evidence that we have?

 

[Geosurface]

Our hero on the other hand, knowing that one of the occupants of the SUV threatened him with a shotgun actually got out of his vehicle and presented himself as a target so he could continue shooting at the SUV as it fled.

There's a world of difference between these two scenarios:

1.) Someone's pointing a gun at me but hasn't fired yet, they're still threatening with it rather than actively using it, but I think they are getting ready to or there's a very good chance they will use it. Therefore, I grab my gun to defend myself.

vs.

2.) I'm already being shot at, bullets are whizzing past my head, glass is shattering, and I'm absolutely terrified. I wasn't expecting this and had just been trying to scare the guy.

I have to ask you, why is it so important to you that Dunn is not guilty? Why are you so willing to ignore the evidence that we have?

It's not important to me that he not be guilty. I think he may very well be guilty. I think both scenarios are plausible and I think some scenario in between may be most likely of all, as in: they did threaten him, he did feel legitimately in peril, but they were just trying to intimidate him and he went way too far by continuing to shoot at them as they drove away, and allowed his fear to become mixed with rage and such. That may be the most likely. I don't know. I wasn't there.

I'm not ignoring evidence. I'm acknowledging that it isn't conclusive either way. Why don't you acknowledge that?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

There's a world of difference between these two scenarios:

1.) Someone's pointing a gun at me but hasn't fired yet, they're still threatening with it rather than actively using it, but I think they are getting ready to or there's a very good chance they will use it. Therefore, I grab my gun to defend myself.

Stepping out of your car to unload on someone who has a gun in his hands is not 'defending' one's self; leaving is self-defense, shooting until you can get away is self-defense, going into greater danger in order to unload on someone: that's murder.

 

[Vic]

That's exactly what I think happened and is the most logical scenario. Coupled with verbal threats of death or great bodily harm to the honorable mr Dunn

It's sad seeing what's become of you, John.

 

[spidey07]

Stepping out of your car to unload on someone who has a gun in his hands is not 'defending' one's self; leaving is self-defense, shooting until you can get away is self-defense, going into greater danger in order to unload on someone: that's murder.

Negative. Advance on the threat and keep firing so they can't fire back until they are eliminated.

 

[Vic]

Negative. Advance on the threat and keep firing so they can't fire back until they are eliminated.

Unarmed 'threats' don't fire back.

 

[thraashman]

Negative. Advance on the threat and keep firing so they can't fire back until they are eliminated.

Shooting at and advancing on an unarmed group that you perceive as a threat is ok. Yet hitting an armed threat when they're on the ground yet still armed and dangerous is assault according to you. It's fascinating how your mind works.

 

[Vic]

I don't know where you guys are getting your information but Dunn's own statement is that he was in the car, with the windows up and the engine running, at the time of the shooting.

 

[Geosurface]

Shooting at and advancing on an unarmed group that you perceive as a threat is ok. Yet hitting an armed threat when they're on the ground yet still armed and dangerous is assault according to you. It's fascinating how your mind works.

Shooting at truck full of people who are yelling threats on your life and point a shotgun out of the window at you =/= Approaching someone who is walking around in their own neighborhood, who's been keeping an eye on you where you're a guest of a guest, and then when they don't answer "you got a problem?" to your satisfaction, you sucker punch them, breaking their nose, and spend another couple of minutes on top of them continuing to beat them, including bashing their head on the pavement below, as they scream in terror - all while you are blissfully unaware they have a firearm until the last moments.

I don't know where you guys are getting your information but Dunn's own statement is that he was in the car, with the windows up and the engine running, at the time of the shooting.

Which has what impact on anything that's been said?

 

[Vic]

Shooting at truck full of people who are yelling threats on your life and point a shotgun out of the window at you =/= Approaching someone who is walking around in their own neighborhood, who's been keeping an eye on you where you're a guest of a guest, and then when they don't answer "you got a problem?" to your satisfaction, you sucker punch them, breaking their nose, and spend another couple of minutes on top of them continuing to beat them, including bashing their head on the pavement below, as they scream in terror - all while you are blissfully unaware they have a firearm until the last moments.



Which has what impact on anything that's been said?

Well, it does pretty much render all of your little scenarios false. No doubt he could really hear all those alleged threats from behind his closed windows and over that loud jungle music.

Look, maybe Dunn really did think he saw a gun. But he screwed up and there wasn't one. Oops. And you can lie and lie all you want, but that won't make a gun appear.

 

[spidey07]

I don't know where you guys are getting your information but Dunn's own statement is that he was in the car, with the windows up and the engine running, at the time of the shooting.

Also known as an occupied vehicle.

Castle doctrine applies.

 

[mugs]

I don't know where you guys are getting your information but Dunn's own statement is that he was in the car, with the windows up and the engine running, at the time of the shooting.

My source for the information that he got out of the vehicle was his interview with the police. I don't feel like watching it again, but from skimming the police report I only see mention of him opening the car door to continue firing, and one mention of him firing while squatting. So, I may be mistaken about him getting out, but at very least he opened the car door so he could continue shooting at them as they drove away.

While skimming for that I did find this (written by the police):

The phone was answered by the suspect, Michael Dunn. I advised Mr Dunn who I was and I would like to talk to him. I asked Mr Dunn if he was still in Jacksonville. Mr Dunn advised he had just returned to his home approximately five minutes ago. Mr Dunn told me he knew what I was calling about. He said, "I acted in self-defense, the guys were getting out of the truck." I again told Mr. Dunn I needed to talk to him and he needed to go to the nearest Brevard County Sheriff's Office. Mr Dunn then stated, "This sucks."

Strange that he offered a reason why it was self-defense, but didn't mention the shotgun. Must have just forgotten, I guess.

Edit:
He also forgot to mention it when he was explaining the situation to his girlfriend while driving away. He told them they were "making threats and he believed they were starting to 'advance on him,'" but he never mentioned seeing any weapon. It's so obvious this guy is lying about the shotgun.