Techreport 7950 vs. GTX 660 Ti "Smoothness" videos

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Rikard

Senior member
Apr 25, 2012
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My realisation in all this is that all the reviews are near worthless.
It is a bit like buying shoes (or a similar product category) over the Internet. Yes, you can read about how great material they have, what fancy features they have, and how someone else think they fit. But ultimately it is your own experience that matter, and without trying you won't know. In my case I can measure microstutter, but I do not see it, so it is to me personally this topic is pretty useless, but that does not mean that it cannot be real problem for someone else.

No review in the world will be able to tell you if you are going to find stuttering annoying or not. All the reviewer can do is say "Hey, these are the frame times, make of it what you want", while the manufacturer can solve it at the source if it becomes a large enough problem for a large enough group of costumers.

Since then, game development has graphically stagnated, as has LCD tech (we're stuck at 1080p and 1600p), and therefore gaming cards can max today's games with room to spare.
Indeed. We are, in fact, spoiled. It used to be a matter of buying new hardware so you can run it at all, and buy new next year because both software and hardware are evolving so much. These days we demand to have everything turn up to max with no stuttering at framerates that we cannot possible perceive as human beings.

There is one thing though, that I see very little discussion about: There were claims that NV had larger input lag in SLI which correlates to how they regularize their frame times. It would be nice to see that included in upcoming studies. This is another thing I cannot see, at least not in single GPU cards, but my gaming performance improved in first person shooters when moving to AMD from NV. It is very incidental as well as subjective, I know, but I wonder if a small difference in input lag could account for it. And this I cannot measure as easily with Fraps, so I hope some review site find a way to do it!
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,991
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Are you on Crack or something? Truths of this world? Sensational comments that have no basis in fact? You my friend have just changed the dictionary definition of delusional. You believe TR's findings are all one giant untruth. A lie. A scam. Are you serious? You know what, don't answer that. I know it already. We will have a shot in your name tonight at the local pub.
Wow. :\

I think it's time to close this thread. When things degrade into this kind of name calling and insults, it's pretty much done.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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Oh you can lobby to get the thread locked. Another will take its place
Now that the majority of thread crapping was accomplished in this one.
 

KCfromNC

Senior member
Mar 17, 2007
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Being "right," even by chance, doesn't give them much credibility. There's way too many liberties taken with their testing to take it with anything but a grain of salt. IIRC, there were reports that frametime reading on nvidia's cards is borked anyway due to the way their drivers work, so how accurate is FRAPS? I like using high speed cameras to film the action and slow it down, but so far the only game they've tested they ran modded, which completely confounds the test. If the results are more consistent across different games that are run at default settings, then we have something. Currently it's impossible to tell if the discrepancies come from the hardware, the drivers, the game/application, or the software benchmarking everything.

The other thing that would be nice is a bit of blind or double-blind testing using the videos. Sure, it's really easy to tell that AMD's card is a stuttering mess when you know which video is AMD's. Science shows that it's a whole lot harder to pick up on these "obvious" observations when you don't know the right answer beforehand. If there really is a difference unbiased observation will still show it. But all these videos show now is that people can read the text that goes along with them.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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The other thing that would be nice is a bit of blind or double-blind testing using the videos. Sure, it's really easy to tell that AMD's card is a stuttering mess when you know which video is AMD's. Science shows that it's a whole lot harder to pick up on these "obvious" observations when you don't know the right answer beforehand. If there really is a difference unbiased observation will still show it. But all these videos show now is that people can read the text that goes along with them.

You insinuate that bias will play a part. I agree. Blind testing would be fantastic.
 

f1sherman

Platinum Member
Apr 5, 2011
2,243
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No, because posters like me focus on truths of this world, not seek to distract casual viewers of this forum with sensational comments that have no basis in fact or the actual world that we live in. I'm not the only one, in case you haven't noticed, who promotes rigorous fact finding methodologies.

0:38:33 time mark
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
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The other thing that would be nice is a bit of blind or double-blind testing using the videos. Sure, it's really easy to tell that AMD's card is a stuttering mess when you know which video is AMD's. Science shows that it's a whole lot harder to pick up on these "obvious" observations when you don't know the right answer beforehand. If there really is a difference unbiased observation will still show it. But all these videos show now is that people can read the text that goes along with them.

I said this from day one. I've been involved with subjective testing (listening tests with very expensive audio gear. Comparing ultra highend transistor gear (Krell, Cello, Levinson, etc) with more moderate gear (NAD, Sumo, Adcom) on speakers by Apogee, Quad, Thiel, Paradigm, Vandersteen... Also Tube equipment with highend analogue and digital sources. Nobody had the same experiences listening blind to the equipment as they did when they knew what they were listening to. And I mean nobody.

You can't tell people that you've measured the frame latency between 2 cards and tell them to which cards are running in a particular test and expect the knowledge you've given them beforehand not to heavily influence their perception.

Also, you need to test the cards as you would use them. Recording the output and slowing it down to ~3fps is not in any way going to show you what they are like in real time.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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Also, you need to test the cards as you would use them. Recording the output and slowing it down to ~3fps is not in any way going to show you what they are like in real time.

Obviously this is incorrect. If it isn't any way to show what they are like in real time, then you would not be able to tell the difference at 3fps. Obviously we can. Obviously there IS a difference. To ignore this difference is to spit in your own eyes and say you can see better. The editor at H repeatedly states in several articles (the latest one being far cry 3) that the gameplay experience in real time is noticeably smoother on the Nvidia SLI system. I bet if you were to take high speed video of what that editor was describing, then slowed it down to 3fps, it would be so much easier to convey to people what is being experienced. And so, that's what TR did.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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Obviously this is incorrect. If it isn't any way to show what they are like in real time, then you would not be able to tell the difference at 3fps. Obviously we can. Obviously there IS a difference. To ignore this difference is to spit in your own eyes and say you can see better. The editor at H repeatedly states in several articles (the latest one being far cry 3) that the gameplay experience in real time is noticeably smoother on the Nvidia SLI system. I bet if you were to take high speed video of what that editor was describing, then slowed it down to 3fps, it would be so much easier to convey to people what is being experienced. And so, that's what TR did.

Obviously it's not incorrect. In your example you are talking about a phenomenon that is visible in real time and slowing it down to analyze it. What we've been talking about with TR's report is taking a measurement and slowing it down so it can be seen. Not the same thing. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

I find it strange that you talk about wanting to investigate but you don't want anyone to actually look to see if there is a perceivable problem in the first place. There are thresholds below which human perception is lost.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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Obviously it's not incorrect. In your example you are talking about a phenomenon that is visible in real time and slowing it down to analyze it. What we've been talking about with TR's report is taking a measurement and slowing it down so it can be seen. Not the same thing. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

I find it strange that you talk about wanting to investigate but you don't want anyone to actually look to see if there is a perceivable problem in the first place. There are thresholds below which human perception is lost.

I think you're twisting things here. It wasn't slowed down so it could be seen. It was obviously seen, and felt, in real time by the editor. Enough to make him capture frametimes and enough to make him use that high speed camera. So, the slowmo wasn't to enable us to "see" the issue, it made it "easier" to understand what the editor was talking about. This isn't about NOT being able to see it in real time, which is what you're trying to say. So yes, you are indeed, incorrect.
And about not wanting anyone to look? You just made that up. Wild. Look until your eyes bleed man. Just sayin take this forums conclusions with a grain of salt, just as you do mine and wait for more professional reviewers to earn their pay.
 
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KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
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So the "hitching" or microstutter in the AMD card, that really hurts the overall average FPS right?

So would it follow that AMD's *average* FPS would shoot through the roof if they eliminate the hitching? I just wonder how much higher the average FPS would be if not for the hitching?

Is there hope for yet another AMD performance boost in the next driver release, if they iron out the hitches?

I mean, the TR podcast said that there was hitching both before and after the ~15% boost in the drivers when AMD improved the GCN performance. So maybe fixing the hitching will provide another ~15% boost yet again?
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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So the "hitching" or microstutter in the AMD card, that really hurts the overall average FPS right?

So would it follow that AMD's *average* FPS would shoot through the roof if they eliminate the hitching? I just wonder how much higher the average FPS would be if not for the hitching?

Is there hope for yet another AMD performance boost in the next driver release, if they iron out the hitches?

I mean, the TR podcast said that there was hitching both before and after the ~15% boost in the drivers when AMD improved the GCN performance. So maybe fixing the hitching will provide another ~15% boost yet again?

No, it doesn't appear to hurt AMD in any way shape or form when it comes to min, max, avg. fps. What looks like it gets hurt is the smooth gameplay experience. You could have 120 fps average, but in that second, 100 of those frames are delivered in the first half of the second and 20 in the second half. (a rough and inaccurate description of what the latency issue manifests).
 

KingFatty

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2010
3,034
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Yeah now I'm wondering about the nature of hitching in general, regardless of brand.

Is it like you have a set average FPS, and if there is hitching, the average doesn't change? Sort of like towing a car trailer at a set average speed of 25 mph, but using a bungee cord for towing so the trailer goes faster and slower (20 mph here, 30 mph there) but is still tied to that inescapable 25 mph... like you have a fixed resource and you fluctuate around it both up and down? That's how I'm thinking of stutter/hitching now.

But could it instead be like each individual hitch brings down the average FPS. So the analogy would be like a car where it drives at 30 mph most of the time, but the clutch is randomly slipping and during a slips the car slows down to 20, thereby reducing your average speed to 25.

But you see where I'm going with the analogy where I set out two examples each of 25 mph. So if microstutter is like the first situation, and you fix that by replacing the bungee cord with a rigid rod (i.e., smooth out the frames by metering/holding back the faster frames), your speed becomes fixed at 25 mph. You fix the slowdowns and also the speed ups.

But if microstutter is like the second situation, and you fix that by replacing your clutch (eliminate the faulty slower hitching frames that bring down the average), your speed becomes fixed at 30 mph, resulting in a net increase overall. You fix the slipping/hitching, and there is no "bouncing" speed ups that you'll lose, so it's a net increase by fixing the clutch.

So is the nature of the microstutter like a bungee cord or like a slipping clutch? Would fixing the microstutter therefore possibly pull down or keep average FPS the same, or could it increase?

My main confusion is because I don't understand what is causing a hitch, especially in single-card setups. Why would frame delivery be paced like fast, fast, fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, fast, etc.? It's not like it's accumulating a rubber-band effect, but seems more like a slipping clutch?
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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"Is it like you have a set average FPS, and if there is hitching, the average doesn't change? Sort of like towing a car trailer at a set average speed of 25 mph, but using a bungee cord for towing so the trailer goes faster and slower (20 mph here, 30 mph there) but is still tied to that inescapable 25 mph... like you have a fixed resource and you fluctuate around it both up and down? That's how I'm thinking of stutter/hitching now."

Awesome analogy! The inescapable 25mph would represent the framerate, and the 20mph -30mph would represent the hitching/latency
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
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Its actually both. The video shows both oscillations that cause lack of smoothness and longer slow downs that show up as big jumps. The effects of each look different, but we don't call both of those microstutter. Only the periodic fluctuations are microstutter, the singular drop people are calling hitching or just a stutter. They certainly have different impacts and likely different fixes.
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,188
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Thanks! They look identical to me.

Indeed, I guessed wrong. I figured the one on the left was the GTX680 because that side has better IQ, and it's a TWIMTBP title. To me it seemed like the left side had better looking Ambient Occlusion.

Could not perceive the difference in smoothness at full speed, and at 25% all I could see was tearing during fast pans.

Added spoiler tags. didn't think it was a huge deal.
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,219
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Indeed, I guessed wrong. I figured the one on the left was the GTX680 because that side has better IQ, and it's a TWIMTBP title. To me it seemed like the left side had better looking Ambient Occlusion.

Could not perceive the difference in smoothness at full speed, and at 25% all I could see was tearing during fast pans.

Added spoiler tags. didn't think it was a huge deal.

This is what your post said before you edited it:
Indeed, I guessed wrong. I figured the one on the right was the GTX680 because that side has better IQ, and it's a TWIMTBP title. To me it seemed like the left side had better looking Ambient Occlusion.

So, splain dat wun. :colbert: