Tax payers on the hook for up to $80,000 to cover murderer's sex change operation

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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It seems we are paying for prisoner's to have sex change operations now:

A federal court judge on Tuesday ordered Massachusetts officials to provide sex-reassignment surgery for a transsexual prison inmate, after determining that it was the only adequate treatment for the inmate's mental illness.

The state's Department of Correction said Michelle Kosilek, previously known as Robert, who is serving a life sentence without parole for murdering his wife in 1990, has a gender identity disorder.

She attempted to castrate herself and tried to commit suicide twice while incarcerated in an all-male prison in Norfolk, according to a court order.
"We are very happy with the ruling, of course. We are still reviewing the opinion and we anticipate the Department of Corrections will follow Judge Wolf's order and promptly arrange for Michelle Kosilek to receive her treatment," Kosilek's attorney Joseph Sulman said Tuesday.

The Chart: Treatment guidelines for Gender Identity Disorder in development
Chief Judge Mark L. Wolf ruled that sex reassignment surgery is the "only adequate treatment" for Kosilek, and "that there is no less intrusive means to correct the prolonged violation of Kosilek's Eighth Amendment right to adequate medical care."

"This is the first decision in which the court has ordered a prison to provide sex reassignment surgery as the necessary medical treatment for a transsexual inmate," said Ben Klein, senior attorney with the Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders.

But according to court documents, this ruling was not an unfamiliar case for this court.

Kosilek's case dates back two decades ago, when she was first incarcerated.
According to Francis Cohen, the lead counsel of Kosilek's initial lawsuit, Kosilek did not receive any treatment for her disorder from 1992 to 2002, even though she had repeatedly asked the prison for help.

It wasn't until 1999, when Kosilek first filed suit, that the court recognized her medical needs.

In 2002, the court found that the Department of Correction had refused to provide Kosilek with the proper medical treatment she needed as had been prescribed by the department's doctors.

In that ruling, the court found that the department's refusal was "rooted in sincere security concerns, and in fear of public and political criticism as well."
That year, Kosilek began to receive necessary medical treatments in the form of psychotherapy and hormone treatments.

"It's quite common that the denial of important medical treatments is based on a bias against transgender people rather than on science," Klein said.

A 2009 University of California, Irvine study of prison inmates in California found that a transgender inmate is 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than the average inmate, adding on to security concerns above medical ones.

"[Kosilek]'s very excited and very, very pleased. She's very glad the court has recognized her need for this surgery," Cohen said of her client.
According to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, with all operations, therapy, hormone injections and electrolysis, the cost of sex reassignment surgery can range from $30,000 to $80,000.

U.S. Sen. Scott Brown, R-Massachusetts, said in a statement Tuesday that the court's decision is "an outrageous abuse of taxpayer dollars. ... I look forward to common sense prevailing and the ruling being overturned."

The court ruling left it up to the Department of Correction to decide where Kosilek will be incarcerated after the surgery.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/health/massachusetts-sex-change-surgery-inmate/index.html

I think this might be stretching the 'adequate medical care' clause for a convicted murderer. I also highly doubt a non-prisoner would have such luck getting their entire gender reassignment program covered by their health care plan.

Maybe if I get really sick and can't afford treatments I'll just commit a felony...
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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$80,000 is what, two years' worth of normal expenses for a prisoner?

I'm not a fan of shelling out taxpayer dollars for such things, but when you commit to put someone in jail for life you have to take care of them. What would you propose they do in this circumstance?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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$80,000 is what, two years' worth of normal expenses for a prisoner?

I'm not a fan of shelling out taxpayer dollars for such things, but when you commit to put someone in jail for life you have to take care of them. What would you propose they do in this circumstance?

"take care of them" should not include their choice to want to mutilate their body. If they want to change gender they can pay for it themselves, it most certainly is not a medical necessity. If it doesn't get done, there is nothing medically wrong with the guy.

Beyond that, the guy is guilty of murder, I don't think he should be getting anything more than bread and water and 4 walls for the rest of his life.

Scholarships and tuition for illegal immigrants, sex change operations for murders, this country is so messed up.
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
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Scholarships and tuition for illegal immigrants, sex change operations for murders, this country is so messed up.

Read the history books. This country has ALWAYS been messed up and always will be.

EVERY country is in it's own way.

Welcome to reality.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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"This is the first decision in which the court has ordered a prison to provide sex reassignment surgery as the necessary medical treatment for a transsexual inmate," said Ben Klein, senior attorney with the Gay and Lesbian Advocates and Defenders.

The bolded is why it is being covered. Transgendered people smartly latched on to the LGB movement. Although why lesbians and gays want to be associated with mentally ill people is beyond me.

Think about it. What other mental illness is indulged? If an inmate was bulimic or anorexic would we provide them with exercise equipment and encourage them to lose weight? If they were schizophrenic and thought they were Emperor of the Prison would we hand them a scepter and velvet cape? No we would not.

And if they are not mentally ill then that destroys the whole argument about the individual needing the surgery as medical care.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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"take care of them" should not include their choice to want to mutilate their body. If they want to change gender they can pay for it themselves, it most certainly is not a medical necessity. If it doesn't get done, there is nothing medically wrong with the guy.

Are you a physician?

"Pay for it themselves" -- using what? You lock someone up for life, you make it so they can't earn an income.

The person has already tried to mutilate themselves, and to commit suicide.

So again, it's easy to say what they shouldn't do. What should they do? This sounds like a person who can't be kept in the general population. You want him/her given special accomodations for life? That will cost a lot more than $80k.

Let me guess: Do nothing and hope the next suicide attempt succeeds?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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Are you a physician?

"Pay for it themselves" -- using what? You lock someone up for life, you make it so they can't earn an income.

The person has already tried to mutilate themselves, and to commit suicide.

So again, it's easy to say what they shouldn't do. What should they do? This sounds like a person who can't be kept in the general population. You want him/her given special accomodations for life? That will cost a lot more than $80k.

Let me guess: Do nothing and hope the next suicide attempt succeeds?

Why should we care if a mentally ill murderer kills themselves?
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Why should we care if a mentally ill murderer kills themselves?

I've read enough of your posts not to expect you to care about anything but yourself.

However, most people do recognize that when you commit to put someone in jail for life, you must provide reasonable health care to them. What's "reasonable" is not always clear, which is why we have a court system.

The courts are not perfect, but I trust them a lot more than vindictive, anonymous, angry people on the Internet.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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I've read enough of your posts not to expect you to care about anything but yourself.

However, most people do recognize that when you commit to put someone in jail for life, you must provide reasonable health care to them. What's "reasonable" is not always clear, which is why we have a court system.

The courts are not perfect, but I trust them a lot more than vindictive, anonymous, angry people on the Internet.

So why should we care if a mentally ill murderer commits suicide?

EDIT: And if small breasted female prisoners threaten to kill themselves if they don't get breast implants should we pay for that as well?
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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$80,000 is what, two years' worth of normal expenses for a prisoner?

I'm not a fan of shelling out taxpayer dollars for such things, but when you commit to put someone in jail for life you have to take care of them. What would you propose they do in this circumstance?

Providing food, bed, and basic medical care is taking care of them. Providing for elective surgery is going beyond taking care of them.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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Where in the bill of rights is there the right to a sex change operation?



Everyone has the right to end their own life.



Only if they come back as zombies :D


Why is it illegal to kill oneself? What is the punishment? death?

I always find that law funny.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Providing food, bed, and basic medical care is taking care of them. Providing for elective surgery is going beyond taking care of them.

A federal court reviewed the data and determined that it was medically required, not elective. What evidence do you have to contradict the decision?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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A federal court reviewed the data and determined that it was medically required, not elective. What evidence do you have to contradict the decision?

That is a nice cop out for debating the issue. If a court decision was the end all be all for policy. We wouldnt debate much of anything in this country as it would be settled law.

Now you tell me. Do you really believe having a sex change operation falls under taking care of somebody?
 

mOeeOm

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2004
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A federal court reviewed the data and determined that it was medically required, not elective. What evidence do you have to contradict the decision?

He's mentally ill, he doesn't need it. He needs to see a psychiatrist and get some therapy. Giving him what he wants because he hurt himself is just silly.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
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This notion that a sex change operation is "medically necessary" is absurd. Society doesn't owe this piece of human garbage an $80,000 elective operation. If he can't deal with that then tough shit for him.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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That is a nice cop out for debating the issue.

I don't agree.

I said that I concede federal courts don't always get everything right. But they certainly have access to far more information than we do, as well as the best arguments both sides' lawyers can muster. And this is the decision they made.

So I am not saying it is necessarily correct, but rather asking what evidence there is to show that it was wrong? A bunch of angry Internet posters who want to stick it to the prisoner because he murdered someone 22 years ago is not evidence -- just vindictiveness.

Do you really believe having a sex change operation falls under taking care of somebody?

Depends on the circumstances, which is why automatically assuming that it is not a reasonable move is ignorant.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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So are they going to go to a male or female prison afterwards?

I'm seeing big problems either way.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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I'm not a fan of shelling out taxpayer dollars for such things, but when you commit to put someone in jail for life you have to take care of them. What would you propose they do in this circumstance?

People try to kill themselves because they are depressed they are in jail. Does that mean we should let them go free? No. Ok - so we have decided that suicide is not a reason to remove prisoner restrictions.

The prison should not to cater to every wish/whim of their inmates. Their job is to provide an incarceration facility. The prisoners live within those constraints as they are able. He/she lost a lot of freedom of choice when they chose to take another's life. While I do not hope that he/she commits suicide I would feel no sorrow if a convicted murderer chosees to take their own life.
 
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Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,172
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This notion that a sex change operation is "medically necessary" is absurd. Society doesn't owe this piece of human garbage an $80,000 elective operation. If he can't deal with that then tough shit for him.

This is the correct answer. I'd even meet him half way and have him neutered.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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This notion that a sex change operation is "medically necessary" is absurd. Society doesn't owe this piece of human garbage an $80,000 elective operation. If he can't deal with that then tough shit for him.

agreed.

this is a waste of $80k. no way in hell should he get this operation on taxpayer dime. its not a necessary surgery.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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People try to kill themselves because they are depressed they are in jail. Does that mean we should let them go free? No. Ok - so we have decided that suicide is not a reason to remove prisoner restrictions.

And nobody is arguing that the person should be set free.

The prison should not to cater to every wish/whim of their inmates.

That's why there is a court process, with review of the evidence and arguments by a federal judge. Who, in this case, determined that the procedure was medically necessary, not a "wish/whim".

Do you have any evidence to indicate that the decision was incorrect? Or are you, like so many others, just spouting that it shouldn't be done because you hate prisoners?

PS If they decide to just ignore issues like this despite the advice of doctors, and the individual attacks and kills another prisoner, how many multiples of $80,000 do you think the negligence settlement will be?
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
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And nobody is arguing that the person should be set free.



That's why there is a court process, with review of the evidence and arguments by a federal judge. Who, in this case, determined that the procedure was medically necessary, not a "wish/whim".

Do you have any evidence to indicate that the decision was incorrect? Or are you, like so many others, just spouting that it shouldn't be done because you hate prisoners?

PS If they decide to just ignore issues like this despite the advice of doctors, and the individual attacks and kills another prisoner, how many multiples of $80,000 do you think the negligence settlement will be?

So since the "they will harm themselves" argument bombed you are now arguing "they will harm others"?

I believe the word you are looking for is "hostage taking". There are ways to deal with people who take others hostage.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,669
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And nobody is arguing that the person should be set free.



That's why there is a court process, with review of the evidence and arguments by a federal judge. Who, in this case, determined that the procedure was medically necessary, not a "wish/whim".

Do you have any evidence to indicate that the decision was incorrect? Or are you, like so many others, just spouting that it shouldn't be done because you hate prisoners?

PS If they decide to just ignore issues like this despite the advice of doctors, and the individual attacks and kills another prisoner, how many multiples of $80,000 do you think the negligence settlement will be?

The conservative mind has traveled so far from reality today they are no longer Americans and can't comprehend either the objectivity or compassion toward the human spirit the founders put into the Constitution. They have become the same moral filth that ran the Spanish Inquisition, full of the vial arrogance that THEY speak for God and the sickening joy they take in the justification of their vengeance. Morally, they have become worthless scum. They are the people of the Dark Ages and if the control the ring of power the world will go dark. God have mercy on their souls for they have no mercy for themselves.

The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
 
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