Tax hike on tobacco takes hold

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: winnar111
The entire point of smoking is to get rid of people before or right around when they turn 65 and collect Medicare and outrageous healthcare expenses.

What's the problem?

Because they tend to get sick much earlier. They miss a lot of work with colds, pneumonia, diabetes, eye problems, cancer. You know, the usual stuff that toxic chemicals do to humans. My sister in law was 42 when she died.

-Robert

And with Medicare spending $10k per person per year, lopping 15 years off someone's life saves $150k on the back end. Not to mention social security.

Of course, nobody ever considers that half of the bargain.

Have you actually read the spreadsheet comparisons, or are you shooting from the lip again? Have you checked out the cost of treating a lung cancer patient? Or, diabetes, which people are getting earlier and earlier? What about all the thryoid tumors? Liver and kidney treatments? Brain cancers? Esophogeal and mouth cancers? $150,000 on the back end barely touches any of that.

But, are you really arguing that you'd be fine with slamming the door shut and exiting this planet at 65? LOL! You'll be kicking and screaming for medical care at 65! Trust me, I'm 66 and very healthy, but almost all my friends are dealing with some physical issue.

-Robert

As opposed to the costs of dementia, Alzhiemers, nursing homes, broken bones, heart attacks, joint replacements, and everything else, all of which is avoided?

Everyone dies eventually, and unless it's a bullet to the head, it costs a lot of money to somebody. Smokers pay into Medicare their entire working lives and many drop dead before they get to use it.

It's not about me; its about them. They chose to smoke. Congrats.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: winnar111
The entire point of smoking is to get rid of people before or right around when they turn 65 and collect Medicare and outrageous healthcare expenses.

What's the problem?

Because they tend to get sick much earlier. They miss a lot of work with colds, pneumonia, diabetes, eye problems, cancer. You know, the usual stuff that toxic chemicals do to humans. My sister in law was 42 when she died.

-Robert

And with Medicare spending $10k per person per year, lopping 15 years off someone's life saves $150k on the back end. Not to mention social security.

Of course, nobody ever considers that half of the bargain.

Death is a bargain? :disgust: JFC you're one insensitive asshole.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: winnar111

And with Medicare spending $10k per person per year, lopping 15 years off someone's life saves $150k on the back end. Not to mention social security.

Of course, nobody ever considers that half of the bargain.
.
.
Smokers pay into Medicare their entire working lives and many drop dead before they get to use it.

That was addressed in my earlier post. the American Cancer Society reports that smokers do not pay enough to cover the full costs they generate:

The Cost of Tobacco

The cost of tobacco to society is best measured by the number of people who die or suffer illness because of its use. One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. Tobacco also drains the economy of more than $100 billion in health care costs and lost productivity annually. Health care expenditures caused directly by smoking totaled $50 billion in 1993, according to the CDC. Of these costs, 43 percent were paid by government funds, including Medicaid and Medicare. Even though smokers die younger than the average American, over the course of their lives current and former smokers generate an estimated $501 billion in excess health care costs. Tobacco use costs Medicare more than $10 billion annually, and it costs Medicaid about $12.9 billion per year.

Originally posted by: winnar111

Everyone dies eventually...

But most people don't volunteer for it for themselves. Even worse smokers have no right to volunteer others to die earlier than they otherwise would due to second hand smoke.

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: winnar111

And with Medicare spending $10k per person per year, lopping 15 years off someone's life saves $150k on the back end. Not to mention social security.

Of course, nobody ever considers that half of the bargain.
.
.
Smokers pay into Medicare their entire working lives and many drop dead before they get to use it.

That was addressed in my earlier post. the American Cancer Society reports that smokers do not pay enough to cover the full costs they generate:

The Cost of Tobacco

The cost of tobacco to society is best measured by the number of people who die or suffer illness because of its use.One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. Tobacco also drains the economy of more than $100 billion in health care costs and lost productivity annually. Health care expenditures caused directly by smoking totaled $50 billion in 1993, according to the CDC. Of these costs, 43 percent were paid by government funds, including Medicaid and Medicare. Even though smokers die younger than the average American, over the course of their lives current and former smokers generate an estimated $501 billion in excess health care costs. Tobacco use costs Medicare more than $10 billion annually, and it costs Medicaid about $12.9 billion per year.

Originally posted by: winnar111

Everyone dies eventually...

But most people don't volunteer for it for themselves. Even worse smokers have no right to volunteer others to die earlier than they otherwise would due to second hand smoke.

One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. There is no way this is true.

..

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: winnar111

And with Medicare spending $10k per person per year, lopping 15 years off someone's life saves $150k on the back end. Not to mention social security.

Of course, nobody ever considers that half of the bargain.
.
.
Smokers pay into Medicare their entire working lives and many drop dead before they get to use it.

That was addressed in my earlier post. the American Cancer Society reports that smokers do not pay enough to cover the full costs they generate:

The Cost of Tobacco

The cost of tobacco to society is best measured by the number of people who die or suffer illness because of its use.One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. Tobacco also drains the economy of more than $100 billion in health care costs and lost productivity annually. Health care expenditures caused directly by smoking totaled $50 billion in 1993, according to the CDC. Of these costs, 43 percent were paid by government funds, including Medicaid and Medicare. Even though smokers die younger than the average American, over the course of their lives current and former smokers generate an estimated $501 billion in excess health care costs. Tobacco use costs Medicare more than $10 billion annually, and it costs Medicaid about $12.9 billion per year.

Originally posted by: winnar111

Everyone dies eventually...

But most people don't volunteer for it for themselves. Even worse smokers have no right to volunteer others to die earlier than they otherwise would due to second hand smoke.

One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. There is no way this is true.

..

It all depends on how you take the numbers and also correlate the data.

For every 5 Americans that die each year, one may be direct or indirect due to tobacco.
If the lungs are weakened due to exposure, that may count for a casuality

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

It all depends on how you take the numbers and also correlate the data.

For every 5 Americans that die each year, one may be direct or indirect due to tobacco.
If the lungs are weakened due to exposure, that may count for a casuality

It does not say one in every five Americans that dies is due to tobacco use it says one in every five Americans die each year from tobacco use


It is just scare tactics to frighten people. Every one that uses tobacco dies due to tobacco use is the message. Although there is know way to know for sure if they would have died anyway from the same thing. It is guilt by association with no direct causality link.

I would like to see a "death certificate" that list death from tobacco use as the cause of death.

If you check all the foods of the people who die and find 50% ate fruit daily. It does not mean that fruit caused their death. It only means that they died.


..

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Kwatt

One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. There is no way this is true.

That's what the American Cancer Society reports. If you disagree, there's an entire Internet out there. Go search for stats that prove them wrong, and post 'em on up. Otherwise, that's just your unsupported belief.

And that's before you get to all the illnesses that aren't yet reported as fatalities, including various cancers, heart diseases, lung diseases and many others. Again, you're welcome to disagree, but I don't think you'll find any hard data to support your views.

Getting back to this tax bill, it raises revenues from those who continue to smoke, and it saves money and lives for those who don't so you'll have even less of a chance of proving that it won't save much more money than it could cost to impliment.

And to repeat, that tax revenue comes from the smokers who are the direct source of those smoking-related deaths and illnesses and their related costs in direct proportion to how much damage they do. They can always avoid the expense by simply quitting smoking.

I think that's a very "conservative" way to approach the problem.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Kwatt

One in five Americans die each year from tobacco use. There is no way this is true.

That's what the American Cancer Society reports. If you disagree, there's an entire Internet out there. Go search for stats that prove them wrong, and post 'em on up. Otherwise, that's just your unsupported belief.

And that's before you get to all the illnesses that aren't yet reported as fatalities, including various cancers, heart diseases, lung diseases and many others. Again, you're welcome to disagree, but I don't think you'll find any hard data to support your views.

Getting back to this tax bill, it raises revenues from those who continue to smoke, and it saves money and lives for those who don't so you'll have even less of a chance of proving that it won't save much more money than it could cost to impliment.

And to repeat, that tax revenue comes from the smokers who are the direct source of those smoking-related deaths and illnesses and their related costs in direct proportion to how much damage they do. They can always avoid the expense by simply quitting smoking.

I think that's a very "conservative" way to approach the problem.

Stop propagating lies, Harvey, when anyone with common sense (which probably explains why you suckered for it) knows that number is bogus. You don't need the internet to understand that number is complete horseshit. 1 in 5 Americans is 60 million. Sorry, but 60,000,000 Americans do not die every year, not even close.

What they likely meant to say is that 1 in 5 deaths can be attributed to tobacco usage, and even then it's a dubious number. Then again, using the ACS to get facts and figures on the impact of tobacco is like going to Freep to get numbers on political corruption by Democrats. They both have an agenda.

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Stop propagating lies, Harvey, when anyone with common sense (which probably explains why you suckered for it) knows that number is bogus. You don't need the internet to understand that number is complete horseshit. 1 in 5 Americans is 60 million. Sorry, but 60,000,000 Americans do not die every year, not even close.

What they likely meant to say is that 1 in 5 deaths can be attributed to tobacco usage, and even then it's a dubious number. Then again, using the ACS to get facts and figures on the impact of tobacco is like going to Freep to get numbers on political corruption by Democrats. They both have an agenda.

~40,000,000 Americans smokers + ~20,000,000 Americans from second hand smoke?



I think that is exactly what the ACS meant to put in the article. My worst subject in school was English and I saw that almost immediately. And I find hard to believe the ACS does not have anyone check their reports that does not have language skills better than me. Who struggled with high school English classes.


..

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Stop propagating lies, Harvey, when anyone with common sense (which probably explains why you suckered for it) knows that number is bogus. You don't need the internet to understand that number is complete horseshit. 1 in 5 Americans is 60 million. Sorry, but 60,000,000 Americans do not die every year, not even close.

What they likely meant to say is that 1 in 5 deaths can be attributed to tobacco usage, and even then it's a dubious number. Then again, using the ACS to get facts and figures on the impact of tobacco is like going to Freep to get numbers on political corruption by Democrats. They both have an agenda.

Thoes aren't my stats. Take your bullshit up with the American Cancer Society. They have more credibility than either of us on the subject.

"Anyone knows" and "what they likely mean" are just weasel words that prove you don't know your gaping ass from that gaping hole in the ground you keep digging for yourself. Until you can disprove or qualify their data with hard info from credible sources, you're blowing more smoke than a freaking cigar club.

I have an even easier request of you. DON'T PROPOGATE... PERIOD! PuhLEEE-E-E-ZE don't create anymore self-centered, lying jackasses like you.

 

[Kwatt]

All that aside. The problem I have with the tax is taxing tobacco users for the "increased cost of their habit" and not using the money to pay the cost of the reason of the tax.


..

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Stop propagating lies, Harvey, when anyone with common sense (which probably explains why you suckered for it) knows that number is bogus. You don't need the internet to understand that number is complete horseshit. 1 in 5 Americans is 60 million. Sorry, but 60,000,000 Americans do not die every year, not even close.

What they likely meant to say is that 1 in 5 deaths can be attributed to tobacco usage, and even then it's a dubious number. Then again, using the ACS to get facts and figures on the impact of tobacco is like going to Freep to get numbers on political corruption by Democrats. They both have an agenda.

Thoes aren't my stats. Take your bullshit up with the American Cancer Society. They have more credibility than either of us on the subject.

"Anyone knows" and "what they likely mean" are just weasel words that prove you don't know your gaping ass from that gaping hole in the ground you keep digging for yourself. Until you can disprove or qualify their data with hard info from credible sources, you're blowing more smoke than a freaking cigar club.

I have an even easier request of you. DON'T PROPOGATE... PERIOD! PuhLEEE-E-E-ZE don't create anymore self-centered, lying jackasses like you.

Harvey a question please. Do you believe that 60,000,000 Americans die every year?



..

 

[Taejin]

thank god the government is doing something useful

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Stop propagating lies, Harvey, when anyone with common sense (which probably explains why you suckered for it) knows that number is bogus. You don't need the internet to understand that number is complete horseshit. 1 in 5 Americans is 60 million. Sorry, but 60,000,000 Americans do not die every year, not even close.

What they likely meant to say is that 1 in 5 deaths can be attributed to tobacco usage, and even then it's a dubious number. Then again, using the ACS to get facts and figures on the impact of tobacco is like going to Freep to get numbers on political corruption by Democrats. They both have an agenda.

Thoes aren't my stats. Take your bullshit up with the American Cancer Society. They have more credibility than either of us on the subject.

"Anyone knows" and "what they likely mean" are just weasel words that prove you don't know your gaping ass from that gaping hole in the ground you keep digging for yourself. Until you can disprove or qualify their data with hard info from credible sources, you're blowing more smoke than a freaking cigar club.

I have an even easier request of you. DON'T PROPOGATE... PERIOD! PuhLEEE-E-E-ZE don't create anymore self-centered, lying jackasses like you.

Harvey a question please. Do you believe that 60,000,000 Americans die every year?



..

Haha, I can't wait to see how this one turns out.

 

[Kwatt]

Harvey I took you advice and searched the internet.

I found this site CDC - Deaths and Mortality (Data are for the U.S.)

...

 

[JD50]

pwnage of the year

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Harvey a question please. Do you believe that 60,000,000 Americans die every year?

I have no idea, and it doesn't really matter. I'm an engineer, and I do know how to search for and evaluate data. I came across the ACS link by searching Google. I could have found lots more, any of which would be far more credible than chickie boy.

I have discussed tobacco and other health issues with doctors and health professionals, especially those who were treating some of the dozen or so friends I lost to tobacco related illnesses over one six or seven year span, and I do know most of them would be alive, today, if they had never started smoking because their docs told me so.

Harvey I took you advice and searched the internet.

I found this site CDC - Deaths and Mortality (Data are for the U.S.)

I'm not sure what those stats represent, but FWIW, the first four entries on list at that page are:

• Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
  
• Heart disease: 652,091
• Cancer: 559,312
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 143,579
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 130,933

• 
  
  All of those are directly attributable or negatively influenced by tobacco use.
  
  Pick your relevant source, and regardless of the totals, tobacco the percentage of deaths attributable to tobacco will be great enough to know that there would be fewer deaths if tobacco was not part of the equation.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Stop propagating lies, Harvey, when anyone with common sense (which probably explains why you suckered for it) knows that number is bogus. You don't need the internet to understand that number is complete horseshit. 1 in 5 Americans is 60 million. Sorry, but 60,000,000 Americans do not die every year, not even close.

What they likely meant to say is that 1 in 5 deaths can be attributed to tobacco usage, and even then it's a dubious number. Then again, using the ACS to get facts and figures on the impact of tobacco is like going to Freep to get numbers on political corruption by Democrats. They both have an agenda.

Thoes aren't my stats. Take your bullshit up with the American Cancer Society. They have more credibility than either of us on the subject.

"Anyone knows" and "what they likely mean" are just weasel words that prove you don't know your gaping ass from that gaping hole in the ground you keep digging for yourself. Until you can disprove or qualify their data with hard info from credible sources, you're blowing more smoke than a freaking cigar club.

I have an even easier request of you. DON'T PROPOGATE... PERIOD! PuhLEEE-E-E-ZE don't create anymore self-centered, lying jackasses like you.

Listen up, trollboy. You posted the stats and then acted like an ass, basically saying 'If you don't believe the stats, prove me wrong.' Well I did prove you wrong, something I do frequently in this place, so take your faux indignance along with your belligerent attempt at deflecting from your idiocy, and shove them both way up your ass. Doing that just might rattle your tiny little brain and, lord knows, it needs it.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Harvey a question please. Do you believe that 60,000,000 Americans die every year?

I have no idea, and it doesn't really matter. I'm an engineer, and I do know how to search for and evaluate data. I came across the ACS link by searching Google. I could have found lots more, any of which would be far more credible than chickie boy.

I have discussed tobacco and other health issues with doctors and health professionals, especially those who were treating some of the dozen or so friends I lost to tobacco related illnesses over one six or seven year span, and I do know most of them would be alive, today, if they had never started smoking because their docs told me so.

Sounds like you owe TLC an apology. You referenced his "gaping ass" when he called you out on posting lies, claiming that 60,00,000 Americans die every year. You were dead wrong and made yourself look like a complete idiot. Hilarious.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Listen up, trollboy....

:lips: my (_!_).

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Listen up, trollboy....

:lips: my (_!_).

Impossible. Your head is in the way.

 

[Kwatt]

OK so we are apparently no longer discussing the whole "taxing for a reason and using the money for a unrelated reason" topic.

So here we go.

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Harvey a question please. Do you believe that 60,000,000 Americans die every year?

I have no idea, and it doesn't really matter. I'm an engineer, and I do know how to search for and evaluate data. I came across the ACS link by searching Google. I could have found lots more, any of which would be far more credible than chickie boy.

I have discussed tobacco and other health issues with doctors and health professionals, especially those who were treating some of the dozen or so friends I lost to tobacco related illnesses over one six or seven year span, and I do know most of them would be alive, today, if they had never started smoking because their docs told me so.

Harvey I took you advice and searched the internet.

I found this site CDC - Deaths and Mortality (Data are for the U.S.)

I'm not sure what those stats represent, but FWIW, the first four entries on list at that page are:

• Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
  
• Heart disease: 652,091
• Cancer: 559,312
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 143,579
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 130,933

• 
  
  All of those are directly attributable or negatively influenced by tobacco use.
  
  Pick your relevant source, and regardless of the totals, tobacco the percentage of deaths attributable to tobacco will be great enough to know that there would be fewer deaths if tobacco was not part of the equation.

• 
  
  

  Originally posted by: Harvey
  
  # Heart disease: 652,091
  # Cancer: 559,312
  # Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 143,579
  # Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 130,933
  
  All of those are directly attributable or negatively influenced by tobacco use.

  
  Lets say every one of these people died due to tobacco use
  
  Total 1,901,648
  
  60,000,000 Americans die per year due to tobacco use per the American Cancer Society.
  
  Does anyone have a site that explains the missing 58,098,352 American deaths due to tobacco use?
  
  I Google'd the internet and I got nothin'.
  
  
  ..
  
  
  
  

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Kwatt
60,000,000 Americans die per year due to tobacco use per the American Cancer Society.

You and others misread what they were trying to say (it was wrongly stated by ACS).

My interpretation is they meant to say one in five Americans killed are tobacco-caused.

The way they wrote it did say one in five Americans are killed annually.

I sent them an e-mail about the error in how they said it.

 

[Kwatt]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Kwatt
60,000,000 Americans die per year due to tobacco use per the American Cancer Society.

You and others misread what they were trying to say (it was wrongly stated by ACS).

My interpretation is they meant to say one in five Americans killed are tobacco-caused.

The way they wrote it did say one in five Americans are killed annually.

I sent them an e-mail about the error in how they said it.

ACS Link under "The Cost of Tobacco" One in five Americans extrapolating from ~300,000,000 Americans += ~60,000,000 Americans

Interestingly they claim "47 million adults were current smokers" I guess second hand smoke got the other ~13,000,000.


refer to previous post about "Anyone knows" and "what they likely mean"


...

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Kwatt

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Kwatt
60,000,000 Americans die per year due to tobacco use per the American Cancer Society.

I assume if your number is correct that the ACS number is a global number.

ACS Link under "The Cost of Tobacco" One in five Americans extrapolating from ~300,000,000 Americans += ~60,000,000 Americans

Interestingly they claim "47 million adults were current smokers" I guess second hand smoke got the other ~13,000,000.


refer to previous post about "Anyone knows" and "what they likely mean"


...

Remind me not to argue anything with you. kthx