Hamas is a criminal organization. Therfore Israel has a right to massacre civilians. I've gotta love your logic.
Most of the dead look like they're military-aged men in uniforms.
http://www.gettyimages.com/Sea....aspx?EventId=84127305
No. But you're right. No matter how many times you point something out, if it doesn't jive with someone elses POV, they'll ignore it.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Perhaps if palehorse had a little more insight, he would see that the USA is also exporting terrorism and anarchy.
And also wonder why we in the USA supports a Saudi Arabia that has equally hostile views and disenfranchise females and makes them wear Burkas.
If we look at the bulk of modern Pakistan, they had the same education system as ours, with males and females receiving an education.
Which is why the Taliban has made no in roads in to modern Pakistan, the more modern Pakistani populace firmly rejects their ideas, aand trying to intimidate and demonize TheGreenBean is totally retarded
but about palehorse's and JOS's usual speed and knee jerk reaction M.O.
But if we want to talk about almost all of Afghanistan and the bulk of the Pakistani tribal areas, little changed since the time of Alexander the Great, the Taliban fit right in with traditional values that have been the norm there for thousands of years. The point being, change usually comes gradually.
Lets tale a look at the USA, founded on the principles of freedom and personal liberty, yet we permitted slavery until the civil war ended it in 1865, in terms of equal voting rights for women, not until 1912, and we still do not have equal pay for women in place yet. In terms of equal rights for gays and Lesbians, forget it, our nation is too homophobic to deal with it yet. Yet if we examine the social trends that led up to voting rights for women and equal voting rights for blacks, they were all long term trends that gradually went from almost universal rejection, to gradual acceptance, and later final adoption in social process measured in units of centuries.
Yet we expect to march into another country, wave a gun, and say be just like US immediately. It does not work that way, it never works that way as Vietnam should have taught us, and all it does is create a stubborn backlash from the reactionary elements of a society, and to a large extent, the Taliban represents that in Afghanistan.
But worse yet, it also is a smokescreen for other problems we then miss because we are watching the sideshow and not the main event.
Its not, IMHO, a matter that the Taliban are loved by the Afghan people, their acceptance of the Taliban is a lesser of two evils proposition, where the US and Nato has managed, against all the incredible odds, to become an even greater evil than the Taliban themselves. And the reason if very simple, ever since the days of Reagan the net effect of US and European involvement in Afghanistan has been to create conditions of total anarchy and corruption. And because the Taliban addresses theft and corruption while the US and Nato basically aids corruption and anarchy, just not a Nato priority to fight, the Taliban is winning.
palehorse take your own advice, stop exporting terrorism. Your thinking is most of the problem and none of the solution.
And also wonder why we in the USA supports a Saudi Arabia that has equally hostile views and disenfranchise females and makes them wear Burkas.
If we look at the bulk of modern Pakistan, they had the same education system as ours, with males and females receiving an education.
Which is why the Taliban has made no in roads in to modern Pakistan, the more modern Pakistani populace firmly rejects their ideas, aand trying to intimidate and demonize TheGreenBean is totally retarded
but about palehorse's and JOS's usual speed and knee jerk reaction M.O.
But if we want to talk about almost all of Afghanistan and the bulk of the Pakistani tribal areas, little changed since the time of Alexander the Great, the Taliban fit right in with traditional values that have been the norm there for thousands of years. The point being, change usually comes gradually.
Lets tale a look at the USA, founded on the principles of freedom and personal liberty, yet we permitted slavery until the civil war ended it in 1865, in terms of equal voting rights for women, not until 1912, and we still do not have equal pay for women in place yet. In terms of equal rights for gays and Lesbians, forget it, our nation is too homophobic to deal with it yet. Yet if we examine the social trends that led up to voting rights for women and equal voting rights for blacks, they were all long term trends that gradually went from almost universal rejection, to gradual acceptance, and later final adoption in social process measured in units of centuries.
Yet we expect to march into another country, wave a gun, and say be just like US immediately. It does not work that way, it never works that way as Vietnam should have taught us, and all it does is create a stubborn backlash from the reactionary elements of a society, and to a large extent, the Taliban represents that in Afghanistan.
But worse yet, it also is a smokescreen for other problems we then miss because we are watching the sideshow and not the main event.
Its not, IMHO, a matter that the Taliban are loved by the Afghan people, their acceptance of the Taliban is a lesser of two evils proposition, where the US and Nato has managed, against all the incredible odds, to become an even greater evil than the Taliban themselves. And the reason if very simple, ever since the days of Reagan the net effect of US and European involvement in Afghanistan has been to create conditions of total anarchy and corruption. And because the Taliban addresses theft and corruption while the US and Nato basically aids corruption and anarchy, just not a Nato priority to fight, the Taliban is winning.
palehorse take your own advice, stop exporting terrorism. Your thinking is most of the problem and none of the solution.
Inspector Jihad
Lifer
- Apr 17, 2005
- 13,465
- 3
- 81
ZzZGuy
Golden Member
- Nov 15, 2006
- 1,855
- 0
- 0
When NATO invaded Afghanistan did they try and kill everyone since they where ruled (at least in the south) by the taliban? No.
You go after the leaders and those who fight/carry out their will for them. Cut of the head and the body dies, no need to kill everyone.
Those evil taliban palehorse is talking about I assume to be the ones actively carrying out and enforcing their beliefs, such as killing little girls who go to school.
So I agree with palehorse, every taliban card carrying able man should be targeted until the taliban no longer exist. Be it that they are all dead or the movement dies, either way works.
Actually if elements within Pakistan have such a significant international effect and if Pakistan is incapable of reigning in such elements, then other countries may have justification to 'decide what happens there.'
ZzZGuy
Golden Member
- Nov 15, 2006
- 1,855
- 0
- 0
@The Green Bean
Your country is creating a lot of problems for others, including deaths of my fellow country men fighting to keep Afghanistan from slipping into the dark ages again.
No one gives a hoot what is going on elsewhere in the world when dealing with your country, they just want Pakistan to enforce it's rule over all it's claimed territory and to prevent rouge groups from launching attacks on foreign nations. Deal with it or let others deal with it for you.
If you can't or won't do either, then your protests will be ignored when others do what you should have done to begin with. You have no say over what is done and how it is done to stop these rouge groups, deal with it.
Your country is creating a lot of problems for others, including deaths of my fellow country men fighting to keep Afghanistan from slipping into the dark ages again.
No one gives a hoot what is going on elsewhere in the world when dealing with your country, they just want Pakistan to enforce it's rule over all it's claimed territory and to prevent rouge groups from launching attacks on foreign nations. Deal with it or let others deal with it for you.
If you can't or won't do either, then your protests will be ignored when others do what you should have done to begin with. You have no say over what is done and how it is done to stop these rouge groups, deal with it.
Colt45
Lifer
- Apr 18, 2001
- 19,720
- 1
- 0
If the US really cared about girls going to school above all else, they'd have let the soviets have Afghanistan. There'd probably be a few towers standing stiil, too. Truth is, they don't care. They do care about sphere of influence and corporate interests over human rights and such, it seems... with countless evil dictator buddies over the years.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
What the USA and Nato is doing wrong is basically contained in the prior post of ZzZGuy when he asserts, " You ( Palkistan) have no say over what is done and how it is done to stop these rouge groups, deal with it."
Not only totally arrogant, who appointed you or the USA as God, but in a nutshell why we are failed and are failing in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan to mention just a few examples.
Smart and effective people recognize that their nations interests and other people's national interests are not always the same, but find ways to make common ground where others Nations are willing to work together to meet common goals.
Stupid and arrogant people ignore that, and fail almost every time. And then demonize everyone else while using every excuse in the book.
Like it or not, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida agents than the rest of the world combined. And have lost far more troops battling the Taliban than Nato has.
Not only totally arrogant, who appointed you or the USA as God, but in a nutshell why we are failed and are failing in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan to mention just a few examples.
Smart and effective people recognize that their nations interests and other people's national interests are not always the same, but find ways to make common ground where others Nations are willing to work together to meet common goals.
Stupid and arrogant people ignore that, and fail almost every time. And then demonize everyone else while using every excuse in the book.
Like it or not, Pakistan has arrested more Al-Quida agents than the rest of the world combined. And have lost far more troops battling the Taliban than Nato has.
So Pakistan is inefficient at fighting extremism, that's hardly commendable. Whatever resources they've put towards that fight, they've been totally unsuccessful at stemming extremism even within their own country, they aren't working together with anyone...they're barely working at all.
I think most of you who post here regularly know I'm far from a war-hawk or a right-winger...but part of the reason the US sometimes has to act as the world's policeman is that everyone else is doing a piss-poor job of it. I would be incredibly happy if we could let countries and regions of the world alone and allow them to figure out their own solutions. But here's the problem...they aren't doing it, and their complete and utter failure can be OUR problem incredibly quickly, since we live in a world where you can get on an airplane and fly to my country and kill a lot of my people, no matter how far away you live. I'm all for working with allies and finding common ground and trying to come up with complete solutions...but sometimes it honestly seems like we're complete alone out there, at least when it comes to regional allies.
I would be willing to back leaving Afghanistan (and Iraq) tomorrow if I was confident that a local power was going to step in and make sure that the country in question was properly looked after, and that the problems those people were facing would be addressed. But ignoring bitching about the US for a second, who is going to step into the inevitable void if we just fly home tomorrow? Most of that part of the world (including, and especially, Pakistan) seems competent to run a hardware store, much less an entire country or two. It's easy to complain about the US...but the honest truth is that there are serious problems facing Afghanistan and other parts of the Middle East (to use the slightly less than accurate generic term), and I'm not convinced anyone will address them if we don't.
Laura Bush's dream is crumbling, crumbling.
Meanwhile, the Taliban also demand the schools stop teaching science in favor of religion (namely Islam). Sound familiar? Anyone? Bueller?
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Your country continues to export terrorism that threatens the U.S., its allies, and the rest of the free world -- thus making it everyone's business.
Has Israel been attacking Pakistan without my knowledge? Beyond your religious affiliation with the terrorists in Hamas, what does the Israel-Hamas conflict have to do with you or your country?
Seriously, try answering the questions this time.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
I wonder how many Muslims have found themselves questioning their religion and perhaps even converting to atheism or another religion as a result of this sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't want to have any sort of ideological or religious association with the Taliban, Hamas, Al Queda, and the myriad assortment of other terrorist groups this religion seems to foment, even if it were in name only.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
Kind of like how the Allies had a "right" to "massacre" Germans and Japanese civilians through collateral damage during World War II?
If the Palestinians don't want to run the risk of collateral damage then they need to root out Hamas and the other terror groups and kill them themselves, which would be the best thing they could do to help themselves. If your neighbors are waging an offensive war against a powerful opponent then you'd better either root them out yourself, run away, or prepare to suffer collateral damage.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
I've been wondering if it might make sense for the U.S. or a coalition of countries to take over the government of Pakistan or to at least forcibly secure all of the nuclear weapons and materials. Of course, afterwards that entire country needs to get cleaned up. Perhaps it should be broken up into smaller countries, leaving the civilized people in one country while giving Kashmir to India, etc.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
How can one convert? Death for apostasy is part and parcel of Islamic scripture and tradition.
There are some US and European help groups founded by x-muslims : http://www.news.faithfreedom.o...article&artid=2&page=1
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ , etc
but 'in country' it's a death sentence. That's why I said Islams innards are bloody as well as it's borders.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
- 11,442
- 32
- 91
You can always keep your beliefs to yourself while going through the motions of pretending to adhere to a religion. Presumably there are lots of people like that in the Muslim world since they're repressed, but I wonder about folks in countries where they would be able to become noticeably atheist.
Thanks for the links, btw. Love the Apostates of Islam site:
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