Question Taiwan Report: Intel has reached an agreement with TSMC

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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
79,558
7,065
126
The biggest tragedy of all is going to be the job losses and loss in added value to the national economy ...

We can sit here all day and point fingers at who's to blame but is it going to change the fact that Americans are going to become poorer in general for it ? I'm getting the impression that Americans seem to like this self-destructive behaviour of ending up being more poor so I guess when crap hits the fan then all Americans will be out of luck ?

Last I check there's not much need for tens of thousands of process engineers out on the streets once Intel quits manufacturing ...
How many job losses caused by Intel shenanigans did you bitch about?
 

senttoschool

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,412
153
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We take in foreigners to do STEM (consequently putting significant downward pressure on STEM compensation), so our people can do service jobs that aren't as cognitively demanding but paying just as well or better. Who wants to do sciences/engineering for four years and on top do 4-7 years for PhD and postdoc? There's a reason why kids of the more affluent are less likely to do engineering/science.
I completely disagree with your assessment that foreign students put downward pressure on STEM salaries. In fact, I'd argue the opposite: they increase STEM salaries because they create more competitive companies which means more STEM jobs.

The foreigners that do come here to study are usually the brightest in their respective countries. And most of them want to work and do work for American companies afterward, helping them become more competitive companies globally.

And the U.S. has historically had a giant shortage in stem talent. I work in Silicon Valley. I'm in at the director level and I hire software engineers. Without foreign students and skilled foreign workers, Silicon Valley is screwed. I estimate that roughly 50% of the qualified candidates we interview are either skilled immigrants or previously foreign students. The foreign talent literally keeps Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, and most Silicon Valley companies competitive globally.

And not only do these foreign students help make American companies competitive, but their future kids also do as well.

Elon Musk was a foreign student. How many STEM jobs has Elon taken away from Americans? Zero. How many more STEM jobs have Elon's companies created directly and indirectly?

Sundar Pichai was a foreign student.

And while Lisa Su and Jansen Huang were not foreign students, they're both immigrants.

Just a few examples.
 
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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
4,539
885
126
Without foreign students and skilled foreign workers, Silicon Valley is redacted.

Maybe because they don't know all that much about the donwsides of SV like insane living cost, traffic jams and general mediocre quality of life. If you go work somewhere in the midwest with half the salary but much better quality of life and getting a house with a football field of land for the same price as a one bed-room in SV.
I see it here as well. Some forgeiners come mostly due to the seemingly high wages and when they realize the living costs, they realize they aren't really off much better.
 
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senttoschool

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,412
153
106
Maybe because they don't know all that much about the donwsides of SV like insane living cost, traffic jams and general mediocre quality of life. If you go work somewhere in the midwest with half the salary but much better quality of life and getting a house with a football field of land for the same price as a one bed-room in SV.
I see it here as well. Some forgeiners come mostly due to the seemingly high wages and when they realize the living costs, they realize they aren't really off much better.
Except that SV has significantly better weather, has way more job opportunities, has more entertainment options, is far more open to foreigners and less racist, and has a comfortable community of other foreigners.

What is important to you, might not be important to foreigners.
 

eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
445
333
136
Maybe because they don't know all that much about the donwsides of SV like insane living cost, traffic jams and general mediocre quality of life. If you go work somewhere in the midwest with half the salary but much better quality of life and getting a house with a football field of land for the same price as a one bed-room in SV.
I see it here as well. Some forgeiners come mostly due to the seemingly high wages and when they realize the living costs, they realize they aren't really off much better.
Yes, even though I have intentionally tried to ignore the previous overly political, clearly foreign, and obviously incorrect posts, I have to speak up here.

SV isn’t the only place in the U.S. with talent or jobs. Companies are slowly warming to the idea of migrating away. $150,000 might get me a studio apartment (if I am lucky) in many parts of the area, but here I can have a giant 3,500 sq ft home on a ton of land and still pay less. I toyed with the idea of moving out there for a job once, but once you added up the cost of living it wasn’t worth it. The job paid a quarter million a year.
 

senttoschool

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,412
153
106
Yes, even though I have intentionally tried to ignore the previous overly political, clearly foreign, and obviously incorrect posts, I have to speak up here.

SV isn’t the only place in the U.S. with talent or jobs. Companies are slowly warming to the idea of migrating away. $150,000 might get me a studio apartment (if I am lucky) in many parts of the area, but here I can have a giant 3,500 sq ft home on a ton of land and still pay less. I toyed with the idea of moving out there for a job once, but once you added up the cost of living it wasn’t worth it. The job paid a quarter million a year.
Sure, I got baited into this political debate as well from obviously incorrect posts.

My response right above your post explains why SV is an attractive place to work.

Regardless of where foreigners want to live in or work, it doesn't change anything from the fact that foreign students and foreign skilled workers are hugely positive to the U.S. economy.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
4,539
885
126
Except that SV has significantly better weather, has way more job opportunities, has more entertainment options, is far more open to foreigners and less racist, and has a comfortable community of other foreigners.

What is important to you, might not be important to foreigners.
You missunderstood me. Of course people value different things differently. That was exactly my point. The fact you don't have US applicants doesn't mean there aren't any, it can mean that, but it can also mean they prefer different locations. That's all I was pointing out.
 

senttoschool

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,412
153
106
You missunderstood me. Of course people value different things differently. That was exactly my point. The fact you don't have US applicants doesn't mean there aren't any, it can mean that, but it can also mean they prefer different locations. That's all I was pointing out.
Yes, I did misunderstand you.

Very large SV companies have long hired in many different U.S. states. Twitter even tried to hire in Detroit.

I've worked in large SV companies that hired in more than one state. Still the same problem. Acute shortage of qualified talent.

The smaller SV startups mostly only hired locally though because their operations are more tight and nimble.
 

Spartak

Senior member
Jul 4, 2015
312
216
116
Samsung has their own foundry and they would never use TSMC especially if it got hit with American sanctions since it would mean potentially getting rid of their competitor for good. The others don't design chips so they don't have a choice at all and I laugh at the thought of a european mobile device manufacturer existing.

Also why would TSMC open themselves to Hauwei again ? You realize them doing so will only inevitably speed reunification with mainland China, right ?
What's with that redneck america first mentality you are displaying for 10+ posts?
Regarding you laughing at european manufacturing, there are still three manufacturers, NXP, Infineon and STM that produce various mobile/automotive/IOT chips in house.

And in case you just dismiss european tech in general, without ASML and ARM you'd remove the two core enablers of advanced CPU manufacturing and CPU platforms. Like it or not, ARM, ASML and TSMC are the holy trinity around which the majority of the semiconductor industry is built right now.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,117
569
126
I completely disagree with your assessment that foreign students put downward pressure on STEM salaries. In fact, I'd argue the opposite: they increase STEM salaries because they create more competitive companies which means more STEM jobs.

The foreigners that do come here to study are usually the brightest in their respective countries. And most of them want to work and do work for American companies afterward, helping them become more competitive companies globally.

And the U.S. has historically had a giant shortage in stem talent. I work in Silicon Valley. I'm in at the director level and I hire software engineers. Without foreign students and skilled foreign workers, Silicon Valley is screwed. I estimate that roughly 50% of the qualified candidates we interview are either skilled immigrants or previously foreign students. The foreign talent literally keeps Apple, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, and most Silicon Valley companies competitive globally.

And not only do these foreign students help make American companies competitive, but their future kids also do as well.

Elon Musk was a foreign student. How many STEM jobs has Elon taken away from Americans? Zero. How many more STEM jobs have Elon's companies created directly and indirectly?

Sundar Pichai was a foreign student.

And while Lisa Su and Jansen Huang were not foreign students, they're both immigrants.

Just a few examples.
Yes, if we didn't get foreigners, we would have to start paying a lot of STEM grads significantly more as an effort to attract smart people to do the same as those foreigners. Because we do end up with a lot of talent already, we look like this:








 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,020
4,970
136
As far as this "furriners are bad"/"furriners are good" argument goes, actual foreign students with full visas and/or citizenship? Good! H1Bs with no right to negotiate wages or switch companies? Not so good. Easy to understand, right?

@mikk

That's interesting, and thanks for posting that. Assuming that's correct, now I know what Intel ordered from TSMC (6nm, which means that doesn't clash with AMD directly). I guess Intel has to figure out how to get their hands on 5nm wafers next for Ponte Vecchio, which is a node AMD wants to use, and if I recall correctly, TSMC has been pushing AMD to take some wafers soon-ish (which started the whole 5nm Zen3 rumour).

That Intel is trying to push Ponte Vecchio on their own 7nm node AND TSMC N5 at the same time is interesting, and the 7nm effort may just be for show.

edit: @senttoschool you really think it's a good idea to have workers that are essentially tied to one company and have a constant threat of deportation hanging over their heads if they complain about wages or try to move to another company? Please tell me you don't think that way.
 
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Ajay

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,064
2,364
136
edit: @senttoschool you really think it's a good idea to have workers that are essentially tied to one company and have a constant threat of deportation hanging over their heads if they complain about wages or try to move to another company? Please tell me you don't think that way.
Yeah, I don't think he understands what the 'vote for the right answer' widget is. I think he thinks it's a reputation system. This isn't even a Q&A thread. Maybe our corporate overlords will fix this in the next update :rolleyes:
 

geegee83

Junior Member
Jul 5, 2006
9
3
66
That's interesting, and thanks for posting that. Assuming that's correct, now I know what Intel ordered from TSMC (6nm, which means that doesn't clash with AMD directly). I guess Intel has to figure out how to get their hands on 5nm wafers next for Ponte Vecchio, which is a node AMD wants to use, and if I recall correctly, TSMC has been pushing AMD to take some wafers soon-ish (which started the whole 5nm Zen3 rumour).
The rumored volume looks huge on 6nm. What product would need that?
 

JasonLD

Senior member
Aug 22, 2017
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mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
5,440
631
126

You need to include your own commentary. You can't expect people to watch an hour long video dropped into the middle of the thread with no explanation of how it connects to the discussion.

AT Moderator ElFenix
 
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senttoschool

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,412
153
106
edit: @senttoschool you really think it's a good idea to have workers that are essentially tied to one company and have a constant threat of deportation hanging over their heads if they complain about wages or try to move to another company? Please tell me you don't think that way.
First of all, I never said anything about H1B, which I assume is what you're referring to.

Second, do I wish to make H1B better for skilled workers? Absolutely.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if I think it's a good idea or not. It matters whether skilled workers think it's worth the trouble for them.

This is my last post on this subject.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,020
4,970
136
The rumored volume looks huge on 6nm. What product would need that?
DG2
DG3
Maybe as a substitute for 10nm since Intel is hemorrhaging wafers trying to launch Tiger Lake and IceLake-SP. My guess would be the most-critical CPU they could potentially move to TSMC 6nm would be Sapphire Rapids. And I'm just reaching there. There's also a slew of industrial/comm gear that was slated for 10nm that is pretty badly-delayed featuring Tremont. Tremont on N6 would be interesting. The timeframe for that may be off though.

First of all, I never said anything about H1B, which I assume is what you're referring to.
Yes, but any time "them durn furriners" come up it inevitably brings H1B to the table. H1B visas are frequently abused, with appalling results.

Lastly, it doesn't matter if I think it's a good idea or not. It matters whether skilled workers think it's worth the trouble for them.
So nothing else matters besides that? That's a pretty close-minded view if ever there was one.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,224
177
106
That Intel is trying to push Ponte Vecchio on their own 7nm node AND TSMC N5 at the same time is interesting, and the 7nm effort may just be for show.
Doesn't Intel need N5 for that Aurora super computer contract? They're over a barrel then. The 7nm mix is probably just a bluff to try and obscure how over a barrel TSMC really has them. If it comes out on 7nm, I think it will be well past the deadline.
 
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