Synthetic vs Regular oil - questions

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
Everyone here has COMPLETELY missed the point.

The difference is $20, and while there's no significant difference in longevity, performance, or fuel economy for a low-performance engine, there's enough anecdotal evidence for such minor improvements as partially silencing tappety valve lifters that it's worth the extra Jackson.

Actually, the point is why even spend $5 if despite all the research there's no clear reason to do it?

On another forum recently somebody asked about an interval for changing a cycling helmet and one guy said he does it every two years because it's a small price to pay for the piece of mind. Nevermind he had no good reason to pick two years at all.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: SniperWulf

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SniperWulf
You guys can say what you want, but I can/have been able to feel the difference between Dino and Synthetic oil in every car I own/have owned. Aside from the longer change intervals, the engine doesn't feel sluggish around 1/4 the way into a change interval like the Dino oil does

Thousands of people "feel the difference" when they use fuel line magnets and "Tornado" fuel savers too.

ZV

So what are you trying to say here? Are you calling me a lie?

I'm saying that, according to every piece of observable and repeatable scientifically-objective testing, the "difference" that you feel does not exist anywhere other than inside your head. You are not "lying" because you legitimately believe what you are saying even though what you are saying is demonstrably false in scientific testing. That makes you mistaken, but it does not make you a liar.

ZV

 

[LTC8K6]

You guys can say what you want, but I can/have been able to feel the difference between Dino and Synthetic oil in every car I own/have owned. Aside from the longer change intervals, the engine doesn't feel sluggish around 1/4 the way into a change interval like the Dino oil does

What would cause an engine to be sluggish on fairly new conventional oil? Since you believe this and in fact feel it, you must have an idea why it gets sluggish. What is causing the sluggishness?

 

[desy]

If my engine feels sluggish I use Injector cleaner

 

[LTC8K6]

Everyone here has COMPLETELY missed the point.

The difference is $20, and while there's no significant difference in longevity, performance, or fuel economy for a low-performance engine, there's enough anecdotal evidence for such minor improvements as partially silencing tappety valve lifters that it's worth the extra Jackson.

Anecdotes are way too low of a standard. If we are going to use anecdotes as an evidence standard then I have some special oil to sell you, cheap.

My brother used it and his car's lifters quit clacking and the smoke from his exhaust disappeared and his transmission shifts smoothly again. Well worth $19.99 plus shipping and handling, considering the cost of repairs.

 

[SniperWulf]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SniperWulf

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SniperWulf
You guys can say what you want, but I can/have been able to feel the difference between Dino and Synthetic oil in every car I own/have owned. Aside from the longer change intervals, the engine doesn't feel sluggish around 1/4 the way into a change interval like the Dino oil does

Thousands of people "feel the difference" when they use fuel line magnets and "Tornado" fuel savers too.

ZV

So what are you trying to say here? Are you calling me a lie?

I'm saying that, according to every piece of observable and repeatable scientifically-objective testing, the "difference" that you feel does not exist anywhere other than inside your head. You are not "lying" because you legitimately believe what you are saying even though what you are saying is demonstrably false in scientific testing. That makes you mistaken, but it does not make you a liar.

ZV

Sorry kid, thats where you are mistaken. The difference is repeatable. I've experienced it numerous times and so do many people I know. I've even had family (that had no idea that I switched her to synthetic) come back and ask what I did different to her car. So saying that it exists *only* in my head is no different than any "observable and repeatable scientifically-objective testing" that you can find.

To the OP: Bottom line, do it.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: SniperWulf
Sorry kid, thats where you are mistaken. The difference is repeatable. I've experienced it numerous times and so do many people I know. I've even had family (that had no idea that I switched her to synthetic) come back and ask what I did different to her car. So saying that it exists *only* in my head is no different than any "observable and repeatable scientifically-objective testing" that you can find.

To the OP: Bottom line, do it.

In that case, I have some lovely oceanfront property in Arizona that you might be interested in.

ZV

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: SniperWulf
Sorry kid, thats where you are mistaken. The difference is repeatable. I've experienced it numerous times and so do many people I know. I've even had family (that had no idea that I switched her to synthetic) come back and ask what I did different to her car. So saying that it exists *only* in my head is no different than any "observable and repeatable scientifically-objective testing" that you can find.

To the OP: Bottom line, do it.

In that case, I have some lovely oceanfront property in Arizona that you might be interested in.

ZV

And I have a snow skiing resort in Cabo that I'm looking to sell.

Geez. It takes someone that really doesn't know how an engine works to think something like that.

I can relate....I've even imagined that my car felt like it was "running better" after I changed the oil, even though I know damn well it's not. But you have to know that it isn't running better.

edit: I saw ZV mentioned those stupid Tornado things.....I bet a lot of people DO feel a difference with those.....because it's a big restriction in the intake. They probably feel a distinct loss of power.

And yeah, nobody's calling Sniper a liar. He believes what he's saying. Only he's wrong, and it can easily be proven by scientific testing. And has been.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Anecdotes are way too low of a standard. If we are going to use anecdotes as an evidence standard then I have some special oil to sell you, cheap.

Enough of them, accumulated from reliable sources over a long period of time, work pretty well.

It's $20 every six months. This is not very much money.

 

[Gillbot]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Anecdotes are way too low of a standard. If we are going to use anecdotes as an evidence standard then I have some special oil to sell you, cheap.

Enough of them, accumulated from reliable sources over a long period of time, work pretty well.

It's $20 every six months. This is not very much money.

But in todays economy, that $20 might mean a lot to someone.

 

[LTC8K6]

For most people and most vehicles, it's 20 dollars down the toilet.

 

[big man]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: big man

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I've given reasons and thorough explanations for my own positions. You've done nothing to support yours.

ZV

My position? my position is that you have turned a simple thread into what every oil thread becomes. A long, winded out, ludicrously anal and biased thread with way more useless explanations than there needs to be

Perhaps you should just sit this one out, moderate the crazies and keep your experiences to yourself

Again, reading comprehension fail; I did not ask what your position was, I stated that you have offered no support for your position. Unsurprisingly, you have still failed to offer any logical support for your position.

I assume that others in this forum are intelligent enough to understand the subtleties that are inherent in the comparison of synthetic oil and conventional oils. You, apparently, do not, and would prefer that the answer be boiled down to the sort of overly-simplistic response that one might give to a 3-year-old.

The truth is that there are specific and legitimate reasons to use synthetics; these reasons I have pointed out. The truth is also that those same reasons generally do not apply in water-cooled street-driven vehicles. Everything I have posted thus far has been factually correct; if there is bias, then that bias is in the facts themselves.

ZV

Once again, i repeat my position that you're being unnecessarily anal about this whole thread. I don't need to support this because anybody with vision can see your ridiculously winded out and unnecessary explanations about things nobody really asked about. this in addition to your obvious bias against Amsoil and your inability to let someone say they like their experience with synthetic oil without explaining to them why you think they're wrong with your "bias free" facts



you shouldn't wear your pants so tight and maybe let this thread go

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: Gillbot

But in todays economy, that $20 might mean a lot to someone.

True.

However, a lot of the anecdotal evidence comes from auto mechanics who have been in the business longer than I have been alive. They're also very honest - one of them told me to never buy an old Volkswagen any circumstances as he was in the process of replacing the clutch in his Mk.1 GTI.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: big man
Once again, i repeat my position that you're being unnecessarily anal about this whole thread. I don't need to support this because anybody with vision can see your ridiculously winded out and unnecessary explanations about things nobody really asked about. this in addition to your obvious bias against Amsoil and your inability to let someone say they like their experience with synthetic oil without explaining to them why you think they're wrong with your "bias free" facts

you shouldn't wear your pants so tight and maybe let this thread go

You're right. Information is an evil thing and people should never be educated. We should never let the facts get in the way of ridiculous and unverifiable beliefs.

I don't "think" people are wrong about synthetic magically making their engines "smoother" or less "sluggish"; I know they are wrong. If you look at the professionals in this thread, Gillbot, Pacfanweb, and Marlin, you'll see which of us they agree with. Hint: It's not you.

If I have given incorrect information, then by all means do offer an intelligent and well-reasoned critique of my errors. If, however, all you can do is continue to whine about how the facts are too complex and nuanced for you, then you really don't contribute anything to this thread.

ZV

 

[Gillbot]

Where's the article where Hot Rod or one of the magazines did a total fluid swap to synthetic using gear, transmission and motor oil. I think they gained a whopping 6HP peak which IMHO, is within error of most dynos anyway. They stated that it was a bargain gain since the cost was only a hundred or so more than conventional oils?

Synthetics do have their place, but if you do not use them to their full advantage they are 100% a waste of money.

 

[KIAman]

The only advantage synthetic might have is extending the oil change interval due to better break down characteristics which could save money on labor costs of an oil change if not done by oneself.

$5/qt 15,000 mile oil synthetic

vs

$1/qt for 3,000 mile oil dino

avg 4 qt total cost for oil is $25 vs $9 (assuming $5 filter).

avg labor cost of oil change = $20

in 15,000 miles

dino costs $145 (5 changes including parts and labor)
synthetic costs $45 (1 change including parts and labor)

As to the differences in engine life, quality, function, endurance, etc, there is no difference as long as the OCI (oil change interval) is followed.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Gillbot
Where's the article where Hot Rod or one of the magazines did a total fluid swap to synthetic using gear, transmission and motor oil. I think they gained a whopping 6HP peak which IMHO, is within error of most dynos anyway. They stated that it was a bargain gain since the cost was only a hundred or so more than conventional oils?

Synthetics do have their place, but if you do not use them to their full advantage they are 100% a waste of money.

They gained 10.1 hp and 6.1 lb-ft of torque on a car with 400+ hp at the wheels. A 2.5% improvement in hp and a 1.5% improvement in torque at the wheels. Just not enough for any meaningful difference in real-world scenarios.

Link

The fun part is that Dynos typically have about a 3% margin of error.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: KIAman
The only advantage synthetic might have is extending the oil change interval due to better break down characteristics which could save money on labor costs of an oil change if not done by oneself.

$5/qt 15,000 mile oil synthetic

vs

$1/qt for 3,000 mile oil dino

avg 4 qt total cost for oil is $25 vs $9 (assuming $5 filter).

avg labor cost of oil change = $20

in 15,000 miles

dino costs $145 (5 changes including parts and labor)
synthetic costs $45 (1 change including parts and labor)

As to the differences in engine life, quality, function, endurance, etc, there is no difference as long as the OCI (oil change interval) is followed.

Most cars sold today recommend a 7,500 mile change interval even with regular oil. Also, I don't know where you're getting synthetic for $5/quart. It runs about $9/quart where I am (Seattle area).

So, re-calculating with the accurate numbers:

Materials cost per 4qt change: $9 for conventional, $41 for synthetic.

Total cost over 15,000 miles: $58 for conventional, $61 for synthetic, + $22.50 for the oil analysis that should be performed at 7,500 miles to verify that the extended drain interval is OK.

ZV

 

[KIAman]

^ true. I get mobile 1 synthetic at wallmart for $20 and change for 5qts.

I would not, however, follow the OCI recommended by the vehicle manufacturers give their "best" case use. My wife's Honda clearly advertised 7500 OCI on conventional but reading closely at the material you will find "Optimal Driving Condition" along with that OCI. Most people fall in the "Typical Driving Condition" which is more like 4-5k changes and for "Hard Conditions" down in the 3k.

Although, all of those 15,000 synthetics have the same verbiage on the bottle as well

 

[Need4Speed]

LOL @ this thread ... I can't believe some of the things people post. Makes me wonder if they actually believe it or are they just trying to rock the boat and cause a controversy. It's been hashed to death and ZV has already covered it ad nauseam. bottom line is synth has it's use but for Joe Six Pack and his Honda it's not going to make a difference except suck extra money out of his wallet. Engines are not going to run "smoother" .. cars won't "handle" better .. it's oil for fucks sake and those that believe all this crap are merely justifying that they just spent that much money on oil .. "I mean .. Geez .. it's more expensive so I have to notice a difference" .. WOW

I run syn in my Speed6 because I'm not always as diligent about cool down as I should be and I typically drive the car hard. So I'd rather be on the safe side and just spend the extra few bucks to keep things from cooking over, change the oil every 5k. On all my other N/A cars I run the conventional stuff.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Gillbot
Where's the article where Hot Rod or one of the magazines did a total fluid swap to synthetic using gear, transmission and motor oil. I think they gained a whopping 6HP peak which IMHO, is within error of most dynos anyway. They stated that it was a bargain gain since the cost was only a hundred or so more than conventional oils?

Synthetics do have their place, but if you do not use them to their full advantage they are 100% a waste of money.

Mopar Action also did this on one of their project cars. I believe it was a 1970 Road Runner. They did it for the reduction in friction and noise. They did discover a conflict with the A833 4 speed and the synthetic lube. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it had something to do with the trans itself not the lube.

Personally I run Mobil 1 in my 30 year old 318 Mopar. I have only noticed 2 benefits:

1. easier cold weather starts

2. it fixed a noisy lifter

and that's it. No improved handling, no increase in fuel economy and no improvement in my love life.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Umm sir, I would like to think that my quaker state synthetic oil is giving me pure performance on my commute to work. I can really feel the engine in it's prime at 2500 rpm. The shifts are barely noticable. Maybe it's just me but I feel a strong connection with the overall vibrations of the vehicle. With synthetic these vibrations are more tight and less floppy.

less floppy or less flacid...careful...there is a difference!

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: big man



Once again, i repeat my position that you're being unnecessarily anal about this whole thread. I don't need to support this because anybody with vision can see your ridiculously winded out and unnecessary explanations about things nobody really asked about. this in addition to your obvious bias against Amsoil and your inability to let someone say they like their experience with synthetic oil without explaining to them why you think they're wrong with your "bias free" facts


you shouldn't wear your pants so tight and maybe let this thread go

Dude...you really need to crawl back into whatever hole you managed to climb out of. Maybe you missed the title of this thread "Synthetic vs. Regular Oil". This is a forum afterall...we come to this place to discuss things and Zemmervolt offers a lot of knowledgeable experience on the car related topics. So what exactly is wrong with him giving a nicely thought out explanations of his feelings on the actual thread topic? If anyone appears to be wound a little tight in this thread...that person would be you. What exactly do you think forums are actually for?

 

[LTC8K6]

What manufacturer, that recommends conventional oil for their vehicle, allows you to extend the oil change interval with synthetic oil? And if there is one, what is the difference in the intervals?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Gillbot
Where's the article where Hot Rod or one of the magazines did a total fluid swap to synthetic using gear, transmission and motor oil. I think they gained a whopping 6HP peak which IMHO, is within error of most dynos anyway. They stated that it was a bargain gain since the cost was only a hundred or so more than conventional oils?

Synthetics do have their place, but if you do not use them to their full advantage they are 100% a waste of money.

Mopar Action also did this on one of their project cars. I believe it was a 1970 Road Runner. They did it for the reduction in friction and noise. They did discover a conflict with the A833 4 speed and the synthetic lube. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it had something to do with the trans itself not the lube.

Personally I run Mobil 1 in my 30 year old 318 Mopar. I have only noticed 2 benefits:

1. easier cold weather starts

2. it fixed a noisy lifter

and that's it. No improved handling, no increase in fuel economy and no improvement in my love life.

I did notice a very distinct difference between running Redline MTL and Royal Purple Synchromesh in my NV3500, but they're both synthetics, so something else is the difference there. The transmission didn't like Redline much, but does like Royal Purple. So the fluid itself can make a difference regardless of type. (I run Richmond Gear Lube in the axle).

As far as synthetic in the engine, I poured 6 quarts of Kendall GT1 in on the last oil change because the sale price made it pretty close to a wash. I can't tell the difference between it and regular oil.