Synthetic vs Regular oil - questions

DVad3r

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2005
5,340
3
81
So I am a bit confused here.

There's people on a Lexus forum saying that synthetic isn't any better than regular oil. I always though synthetic was the "better" oil.

I bought my car used when it had 60,000 km, it's a 2001 ES 300. I am not sure what oil has been used prior to buying the car, but ever since I got it I have been using full synthetic. Car now has 120,000 km.

These guys on the forum are saying I shouldn't be using synthetic because it has no benefit for me at all and using synthetic only works if you start "fresh". I think what they mean by "fresh" is when the engine is new, or as someone there suggested when you get an engine flush/clean and then make the switch.

Going a bit off topic, I got a new motorcycle not too long ago and the oil that was initially in there was non-synthetic. I rode with that during the break in, and switched to Amsoil full synthetic after 1400 km. According to them that isn't a "fresh" start, so was my switch to synthetic useless?

/confused
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
AFAIK, synthetic is only really necessary for high performance engines. If Toyota specifies regular oil from the factory, it's probably just fine.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
22
81
"Better" is a slippery term.

Technically, fully forged internals (pistons, rods, crank, etc) are "better" than the usual cast parts. However, in actual practice for cars like family sedans the "better-ness" is irrelevant because cast parts are already more than sufficient for the job at hand.

Synthetic oil is absolutely "better" than conventional oil. However, for the vast majority of people (liquid-cooled, non-turbocharged, street-driven engines) the advantages that synthetic does legitimately have will simply never come into play. For turbocharged engines I prefer to run synthetic because it resists "coking" better, which is important given the high heat generated in the turbo's bearing race. Similarly, I prefer synthetic for air-cooled engines because the oil is the primary heat sink for such engines and again there are greater thermal loads on the oil.

For liquid-cooled engines, however, the thermal demands on the oil are less significant and, in the vast majority of cases, a street driver will never see any advantage from synthetic. Such is the case for your Lexus.

As far as the fresh start thing goes, as others here have already said, it's BS. Yes, if you've already coked up a turbo's bearings from ignoring cool-down with regular oil you're not going to fix things with synthetic, but if you've taken care of the car from the start, you aren't going to negate whatever synthetic benefits may exist by waiting too long.

IMO, synthetic is un-necessary in your car, and of limited benefit (at best) in the motorcycle.

ZV
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
My sister in law is using synthetic in her car now because it helps keep the worn lifters working and prevents them from clattering at cold startup because synthetic flows better than conventional when cold.
 

DVad3r

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2005
5,340
3
81
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
"Better" is a slippery term.

Technically, fully forged internals (pistons, rods, crank, etc) are "better" than the usual cast parts. However, in actual practice for cars like family sedans the "better-ness" is irrelevant because cast parts are already more than sufficient for the job at hand.

Synthetic oil is absolutely "better" than conventional oil. However, for the vast majority of people (liquid-cooled, non-turbocharged, street-driven engines) the advantages that synthetic does legitimately have will simply never come into play. For turbocharged engines I prefer to run synthetic because it resists "coking" better, which is important given the high heat generated in the turbo's bearing race. Similarly, I prefer synthetic for air-cooled engines because the oil is the primary heat sink for such engines and again there are greater thermal loads on the oil.

For liquid-cooled engines, however, the thermal demands on the oil are less significant and, in the vast majority of cases, a street driver will never see any advantage from synthetic. Such is the case for your Lexus.

As far as the fresh start thing goes, as others here have already said, it's BS. Yes, if you've already coked up a turbo's bearings from ignoring cool-down with regular oil you're not going to fix things with synthetic, but if you've taken care of the car from the start, you aren't going to negate whatever synthetic benefits may exist by waiting too long.

IMO, synthetic is un-necessary in your car, and of limited benefit (at best) in the motorcycle.

ZV

Hmm I see. But what about from a "what will make an engine last longer standpoint?" isn't synthetic better than regular oil? Less wear and tear and will make my engine have a longer life? Not sure if I should switch back to regular now since I have 120,000 km and I've been using synthetic for the past 60,000?

Also when I switched to Amsoil on my bike I noticed a pretty big difference as the oil is used for drivetrain/tranny/and engine. It was a lot smoother and had less/quieter "clunks" when shifting.

 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
0
0
Originally posted by: DVad3r


Hmm I see. But what about from a "what will make an engine last longer standpoint?" isn't synthetic better than regular oil? Less wear and tear and will make my engine have a longer life? Not sure if I should switch back to regular now since I have 120,000 km and I've been using synthetic for the past 60,000?

Also when I switched to Amsoil on my bike I noticed a pretty big difference as the oil is used for drivetrain/tranny/and engine. It was a lot smoother and had less/quieter "clunks" when shifting.


Synthetic seems to have many advantages: Better heat resistance, lower viscosity when cold, et cetera. As far as I can tell, a big, slow whale of a Lexus requires none of these. While there might be some benefit in using synthetic with a high-revving 4-pot, the big, lazy V8s of your average Lexus will work just fine with the regular stuff.

Of course, if you don't mind the extra cost, go right ahead. It can't hurt, and it might just help a little - who knows?

BTW: You have only used 1/2 the useful life of your Lexus. Possibly even less than that. Take good care of it, and it should last a long, long time yet.
 

RU482

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
12,689
3
81
It's a lexus. I thought you could run them a quart (sorry, liter) low from the factory and it would still run for 400k miles.
 

big man

Member
Mar 23, 2009
50
0
0

Your lexus forum friends are wrong.

In a daily driven application, Synthetic oil will allow you to have extended drain intervals because it doesn't break down as easily as conventional oil.


Brief rant, the very definition of "synthetic" oil has changed drastically in the last 5 years. just look up Mobil one vs. Castrol Syntec and note how many formulation changes have occured. In the end neither of them make a 100% fully synthetic motor oil anymore that you can buy in auto stores in america.






 

Gillbot

Lifer
Jan 11, 2001
28,830
17
81
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Hmm I see. But what about from a "what will make an engine last longer standpoint?" isn't synthetic better than regular oil? Less wear and tear and will make my engine have a longer life? Not sure if I should switch back to regular now since I have 120,000 km and I've been using synthetic for the past 60,000?

Also when I switched to Amsoil on my bike I noticed a pretty big difference as the oil is used for drivetrain/tranny/and engine. It was a lot smoother and had less/quieter "clunks" when shifting.

Synthetic oil isn't a magic elixir of life for motors. If that were the case, everyone would be using it and motors would never wear out.

As long as you maintain your car properly, regular oil will protect every bit as well as a synthetic. Keep your oil changed at the proper interval, levels topped off and change your filters (including air) regularly.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I use it in one car because I have since I got it at 37k (now about 90k later). The other I don't bother. Honestly, the stuff is expensive and although it is undoubtedly and demonstrably a superior lubricant, I think for most of us it will never be much of a factor (analogous perhaps to building a steering wheel out of carbon fiber--yes it's better/stronger/lighter, but damn who cares and what a waste of money, right?), even if we keep the car from birth to 200k. I only keep using it in my first car out of habit for that one. Some cars, not only turboed ones, do have synthetic in them from the factory, but most don't (even fairly expensive cars).
 

mrrman

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2004
8,497
3
0
Ive used synthetic oil since 2002 on my Vitara, ran better, tighter handling, less oil changes, better gas mileage. I just bought a 2007 Pilot and will be adding synthetic oil to that also. Just make sure that you use an oil filter that handles synthetic oil, not a regular one or you are wasting you $$$. Check out amsoil.com
 

lurk3r

Senior member
Oct 26, 2007
981
0
0
The biggest benefit (in this case and for me) from snythetic is the adhesion properties. Basically it sticks to the engine better, which greatly reduces the wear when you start your motor. I like throwing my car in gear with the starter still spinning, so I have to be a little bit nice to her by feeding her synthetic.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
22
81
Originally posted by: mrrman
Ive used synthetic oil since 2002 on my Vitara, ran better, tighter handling, less oil changes, better gas mileage. I just bought a 2007 Pilot and will be adding synthetic oil to that also. Just make sure that you use an oil filter that handles synthetic oil, not a regular one or you are wasting you $$$. Check out amsoil.com

Wow. So much fail.

Synthetic will not give better gas mileage (no objective testing anywhere has shown a mileage benefit). Switching to a thinner oil will improve mileage (e.g. using 5w20 instead of 10w30), but using a synthetic of the same viscosity as conventional oil will not improve fuel mileage.

Engine oil has nothing whatsoever to do with how a vehicle handles, so there's no possible way that synthetic oil can make a car "tighter handling".

A car will not "run better" on synthetic. That's all in the owner's mind. People want to justify the money they've spent on Amsoil so their subconscious mind invents things like the engine being "smoother" or "running better" even though there is no objective difference.

Yes, you can extend your drain intervals. This is the sole advantage of synthetics in normal street driving.

A regular oil filter is just fine. There is no such thing as a "special" oil filter that "handles" synthetic oil. Any quality oil filter will perform just fine over the extended drain interval. A standard Dana/WIX filter (NAPA Gold) will work perfectly.

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Hmm I see. But what about from a "what will make an engine last longer standpoint?" isn't synthetic better than regular oil? Less wear and tear and will make my engine have a longer life? Not sure if I should switch back to regular now since I have 120,000 km and I've been using synthetic for the past 60,000?

Also when I switched to Amsoil on my bike I noticed a pretty big difference as the oil is used for drivetrain/tranny/and engine. It was a lot smoother and had less/quieter "clunks" when shifting.

The longer life argument is a bit spurious. The truth of the matter is that I have yet to see an engine that failed due to the use of conventional oil. I've seen engines fail from people not changing the oil, or from people using the wrong viscosity oil, or from running out of oil, but never from anything where the issue would have been avoided by using synthetic. Irv Gordon's first million miles were almost certainly achieved on conventional oil and his car is still running fine at nearly 2.7 million miles.

There are simply so many other things on an engine that will fail long before the difference between conventional and synthetic oil would become apparent. If you want to keep the car for over 500,000 miles, then sure, synthetic might help you out. If you're like most people though, you'll never even get close to the mileages where the benefits of synthetic would become apparent.

As far as the bike goes, I hate to say this, but part of the difference may be that your clutch (which runs in that oil bath along with the transmission) is now slipping more during engagement due to the synthetic oil. With wet clutches it is very important to be sure that any oil used contains the appropriate friction modifiers. Some clutches are more sensitive to this than others though, so this may not be a concern for the VRSC. I'm just throwing it out there. A bike's clutch tends to "stick" a little when cold (the reason for the big "clunk" when shifting from neutral to first after starting the bike) and a synthetic may reduce that enough to reduce the perception of clunks, etc, from the transmission.

ZV
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Synthetic giving better handling? Surely you jest.

I've never heard about having to get a syn-specific oil filter, either.
A car will not "run better" on synthetic.
Yes, I'm sure the only way to feel/hear a car running better on synthetic would be if it was otherwise using paint or water as a lubricant. Surely no person can actually detect the different lubricants through their hands or ears or revs or anything.
 

mrrman

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2004
8,497
3
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: mrrman
Ive used synthetic oil since 2002 on my Vitara, ran better, tighter handling, less oil changes, better gas mileage. I just bought a 2007 Pilot and will be adding synthetic oil to that also. Just make sure that you use an oil filter that handles synthetic oil, not a regular one or you are wasting you $$$. Check out amsoil.com

Wow. So much fail.

Synthetic will not give better gas mileage (no objective testing anywhere has shown a mileage benefit). Switching to a thinner oil will improve mileage (e.g. using 5w20 instead of 10w30), but using a synthetic of the same viscosity as conventional oil will not improve fuel mileage.

Engine oil has nothing whatsoever to do with how a vehicle handles, so there's no possible way that synthetic oil can make a car "tighter handling".

A car will not "run better" on synthetic. That's all in the owner's mind. People want to justify the money they've spent on Amsoil so their subconscious mind invents things like the engine being "smoother" or "running better" even though there is no objective difference.

Yes, you can extend your drain intervals. This is the sole advantage of synthetics in normal street driving.

A regular oil filter is just fine. There is no such thing as a "special" oil filter that "handles" synthetic oil. Any quality oil filter will perform just fine over the extended drain interval. A standard Dana/WIX filter (NAPA Gold) will work perfectly.

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Hmm I see. But what about from a "what will make an engine last longer standpoint?" isn't synthetic better than regular oil? Less wear and tear and will make my engine have a longer life? Not sure if I should switch back to regular now since I have 120,000 km and I've been using synthetic for the past 60,000?

Also when I switched to Amsoil on my bike I noticed a pretty big difference as the oil is used for drivetrain/tranny/and engine. It was a lot smoother and had less/quieter "clunks" when shifting.

The longer life argument is a bit spurious. The truth of the matter is that I have yet to see an engine that failed due to the use of conventional oil. I've seen engines fail from people not changing the oil, or from people using the wrong viscosity oil, or from running out of oil, but never from anything where the issue would have been avoided by using synthetic. Irv Gordon's first million miles were almost certainly achieved on conventional oil and his car is still running fine at nearly 2.7 million miles.

There are simply so many other things on an engine that will fail long before the difference between conventional and synthetic oil would become apparent. If you want to keep the car for over 500,000 miles, then sure, synthetic might help you out. If you're like most people though, you'll never even get close to the mileages where the benefits of synthetic would become apparent.

As far as the bike goes, I hate to say this, but part of the difference may be that your clutch (which runs in that oil bath along with the transmission) is now slipping more during engagement due to the synthetic oil. With wet clutches it is very important to be sure that any oil used contains the appropriate friction modifiers. Some clutches are more sensitive to this than others though, so this may not be a concern for the VRSC. I'm just throwing it out there. A bike's clutch tends to "stick" a little when cold (the reason for the big "clunk" when shifting from neutral to first after starting the bike) and a synthetic may reduce that enough to reduce the perception of clunks, etc, from the transmission.

ZV


Disagree on your response.....are u a user or just a talker....I use the stuff

 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Originally posted by: mrrman
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: mrrman
Ive used synthetic oil since 2002 on my Vitara, ran better, tighter handling, less oil changes, better gas mileage. I just bought a 2007 Pilot and will be adding synthetic oil to that also. Just make sure that you use an oil filter that handles synthetic oil, not a regular one or you are wasting you $$$. Check out amsoil.com

Wow. So much fail.

Synthetic will not give better gas mileage (no objective testing anywhere has shown a mileage benefit). Switching to a thinner oil will improve mileage (e.g. using 5w20 instead of 10w30), but using a synthetic of the same viscosity as conventional oil will not improve fuel mileage.

Engine oil has nothing whatsoever to do with how a vehicle handles, so there's no possible way that synthetic oil can make a car "tighter handling".

A car will not "run better" on synthetic. That's all in the owner's mind. People want to justify the money they've spent on Amsoil so their subconscious mind invents things like the engine being "smoother" or "running better" even though there is no objective difference.

Yes, you can extend your drain intervals. This is the sole advantage of synthetics in normal street driving.

A regular oil filter is just fine. There is no such thing as a "special" oil filter that "handles" synthetic oil. Any quality oil filter will perform just fine over the extended drain interval. A standard Dana/WIX filter (NAPA Gold) will work perfectly.

Originally posted by: DVad3r
Hmm I see. But what about from a "what will make an engine last longer standpoint?" isn't synthetic better than regular oil? Less wear and tear and will make my engine have a longer life? Not sure if I should switch back to regular now since I have 120,000 km and I've been using synthetic for the past 60,000?

Also when I switched to Amsoil on my bike I noticed a pretty big difference as the oil is used for drivetrain/tranny/and engine. It was a lot smoother and had less/quieter "clunks" when shifting.

The longer life argument is a bit spurious. The truth of the matter is that I have yet to see an engine that failed due to the use of conventional oil. I've seen engines fail from people not changing the oil, or from people using the wrong viscosity oil, or from running out of oil, but never from anything where the issue would have been avoided by using synthetic. Irv Gordon's first million miles were almost certainly achieved on conventional oil and his car is still running fine at nearly 2.7 million miles.

There are simply so many other things on an engine that will fail long before the difference between conventional and synthetic oil would become apparent. If you want to keep the car for over 500,000 miles, then sure, synthetic might help you out. If you're like most people though, you'll never even get close to the mileages where the benefits of synthetic would become apparent.

As far as the bike goes, I hate to say this, but part of the difference may be that your clutch (which runs in that oil bath along with the transmission) is now slipping more during engagement due to the synthetic oil. With wet clutches it is very important to be sure that any oil used contains the appropriate friction modifiers. Some clutches are more sensitive to this than others though, so this may not be a concern for the VRSC. I'm just throwing it out there. A bike's clutch tends to "stick" a little when cold (the reason for the big "clunk" when shifting from neutral to first after starting the bike) and a synthetic may reduce that enough to reduce the perception of clunks, etc, from the transmission.

ZV


Disagree on your response.....are u a user or just a talker....I use the stuff


:laugh: LOISSSS is that you?

What he said is correct. I have torn down many motors (with syn and not) and also use Syn oil in 2 of my 3 vehicles. You are wrong.

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
22
81
Originally posted by: mrrman
Disagree on your response.....are u a user or just a talker....I use the stuff

So, essentially, you have no rational basis for your claims and are reduced to attempting to impugn my credibility by assuming that I don't use synthetic.

Here's a list of my vehicles:

1976 Porsche 914 autocross car. Air-cooled, 2.0 litre flat-4 that sees oil temps above 300 degrees Fahrenheit on hot days. I run synthetic in this car purely for superior thermal breakdown resistance. Off the track I have run conventional oil during the winter. There is zero difference in how the engine behaves on conventional. The only reason for synthetic is the greater thermal demands placed on the oil by an air-cooled engine in the summer.

1986 Porsche 944 Turbo. 16 PSI of positive manifold pressure relative to sea level (30.7 PSI absolute manifold pressure). Temperatures in the turbo's bearing race are extremely high even with water-cooling. Again, because of the superior resistance to thermal breakdown, I run synthetic in this engine. In this case it is to avoid issues with coking in the turbo's bearings. When I bought the car, the previous owner was using conventional Castrol GTX and I noticed absolutely no performance difference after I switched to synthetic.

1998 Volvo S70 T5 SE. As with the previous two cars, I couldn't leave well enough alone and it's not stock. 15 PSI of positive manifold pressure relative to atmosphere (29.7 PSI absolute manifold pressure). Again, due to concerns about heat soaking in the turbo's bearing race (especially considering that, unlike the 944, the Volvo does not have an auxiliary electric pump to circulate coolant through the turbo after turning the engine off) I run synthetic in this engine. As with the 944, when I purchased the car the previous owner had been using conventional oil. As with both Porsches, there was no performance difference from switching to synthetic. The reason is simply for superior thermal characteristics.

2007 Harley Davidson XL1200R. Air-cooled, oil temperatures routinely in the 200 to 250 degree Fahrenheit range. I run synthetic in this engine as well, for the same reasons as in the 914. As with the others, there was no difference in performance whatsoever when I performed the initial oil change and replaced the conventional "break-in" oil with synthetic.

You are welcome to continue to disagree with me. You will still be wrong, but that's not really my problem.

ZV
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
98,006
16,751
126
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

You are welcome to continue to disagree with me. You will still be wrong, but that's not really my problem.

ZV

:laugh:
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Ive used synthetic oil since 2002 on my Vitara, ran better, tighter handling, less oil changes, better gas mileage. I just bought a 2007 Pilot and will be adding synthetic oil to that also. Just make sure that you use an oil filter that handles synthetic oil, not a regular one or you are wasting you $$$. Check out amsoil.com

I actually thought it was a parody post... :D
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,442
212
106
I use synth simply for cold weather starts and longer interval changes.

I don't expect it to add engine life, performance or fuel mileage to any measurable degree
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Well, longer than specified oil change intervals will affect your powertrain warranty if your vehicle still has one. Not sure why anyone with a vehicle under warranty would risk that.

For vehicles out of warranty, sure.
 

dclapps

Member
Jul 24, 2005
150
0
71
Is there any difference in change interval wrt synthetic over conventional? Also, once you use synthethic, you can switch back to conventional during an oil change?
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,081
686
126
i run synthetic in my accord. becauseo f that i can change the oil every 8000-10000 miles confidently(i drive all highway)