Switzerland votes whether to ban Muslim Minarets.

[IronWing]

It's not like there isn't a history of Muslims attacking the U.S.

And vice versa. Neither of which has anything to do with whether or not to ban minarets.

 

[Zorkorist]

It's not even close, their attacks today.

 

[Zorkorist]

Switzerlands ban on their religous symbol, is right on, and a warning to allthat deal with them.

 

[Zebo]

They would be smarter and safer to ban Muslims. IMO there is no more retrograde, oppressive, and violent force in the world right now than Orthodox Islam. I admire them in some ways but it really has no place post Renaissance.

 

[n yusef]

Seems like a local issue, even here in the U.S. If you vote locally to ban loud noises via city ordinance, then the early and late calls for prayer could be halted in their tracks. Then again, so could church bells... but, I'm sure people are crafty enough to allow blanket exceptions for certain times of the day.

I know that I'd be the first to protest locally if I had to hear the early or late calls for prayer. The same goes for crack-of-dawn or nighttime church bells. Screw that noise!

The referendum didn't ban the call to prayer; that was already prohibited by noise regulations, and Switzerland's four existing minarets were not used in that capacity. Indeed, Switzerland is banning minarets as architecture--a specific statement meant as a repudiation of Islam in general.

 

[DarkThinker]

Well, I have an idea. I think Muslims can legally get away with building Chruch like bell towers. Then completely cover them with Quranic inscriptions. Right now, there is nothing in Swiss law against the construction of Bell Towers, just Minarets. I say Bell towers it is.

 

[grebe925]

Had this happened to some sort of Jewish symbol for instance, it would have been called antisemitism and media all over the world would have booed the Swiss people, but it's Muslims we are talking about so it's OK. This is a JOKE if you ask me.

And NO, using the UK as an example is stupid. Why? Because the UK system is STUPID. Had the UK had a proper filtering process for their immigration system, they wouldn't have ended up with the sht they have now. Why doesn't the US have the problem that the UK has? Why are Muslims in the US so much better off than their counterparts in the UK? Because we are 100 times better at filtering who gets in and who doesn't through the immigration system. You could be a UK loather for life and get accepted to become a UK immigrant and then citizen. What kind of stupid system is that?

The Swiss, they are proud of their "freedom" SO much, to a point where they restricted religious expressions, just to keep the freedom going? Am I the only one detecting some contradiction here?

The United States is FULL of mosques with some of the biggest minarets I have seen, how did the Minarets in the United States affect the democracy in the United States? They never did.

What's next? A ban on Muslim books in Switzerland so that they protect the freedom of the Swiss people?

I am telling you folks, the Swiss have shot themselves in the foot. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity to show the extremist Muslims that Muslims can live with all their rights intact in Europe without allowing extremist Islam to flourish amongst them. But now the Swiss blew it, now all over the Muslim world Switzerland will be put on the spot as a Muslim hating country, though Muslims have never hurt or hated Switzerland overall.

They are free to do what they want, but in a world where relations matter, the Swiss should expect a big negative impact on many aspects of their lives, such as their economic relations, diplomatic, tourism, trade....etc All of that in the name of protecting freedom of expression while doing the opposite. I am going to sit back and watch that unfold.

These people became so afraid of extremist Muslims to a point where they:

A- Became the people they hated
B- Gave grounds for extremism to flourish in Switzerland because now the extremist will start preaching to the moderates in Switzerland that democracy doesn't respect their rights and only extremist Islam can protect them from others.

Thank God I live in the United States, where a bullshit law like that wouldn't have even passed the smell test.

If Jews started flying airplanes into skyscrapers and strapping bombs and blowing up trains or from where whackos start clamoring for the Jewish equivalent of sharia, you can bet that synagogues would come under the same intense scrutiny as mosques. Non sequitur.

As far as extremists are concerned, the reason why most muslim countries have become s**tholes is because the cowards, sorry moderates never stood up to the extremists in their midst. It's about time that someone took a stand and said "enough is enough".

Why is it that it is always how democratic societies are "failing muslims" but it's never about why muslims are failing democratic societies. And try building a non-muslim place of worship in muslim countries and see what the reaction would be.

 

[Zorkorist]

I'm thinking we light up Pakistan.

See if Osama dodges that.

 

[Zebo]

And try building a non-muslim place of worship in muslim countries and see what the reaction would be.
-----------
That aint no joke. I spent a year in Saudi and you had better STFU about being anything other than Muslim. Crosses had to be hidden under garments or you'd get beaten by police.

That being said very nice people overall, better than USA - but Islam was everything.

 

[n yusef]

And try building a non-muslim place of worship in muslim countries and see what the reaction would be.
-----------
That aint no joke. I spent a year in Saudi and you had better STFU about being anything other than Muslim. Crosses had to be hidden under garments or you'd get beaten by police.

That being said very nice people overall, better than USA - but Islam was everything.

I thought that Western democracy was better than Saudi-style totalitarianism because of our freedom. And now, you (and many others) are saying that we should act like the Saudis and forget about religious freedom. I'm confused. . . .

 

[grebe925]

....
That being said very nice people overall, better than USA - but Islam was everything.

I have read that the Mafiosi are the nicest and most polite people around - until you get onto their wrong side. LOL.

 

[DarkThinker]

If Jews started flying airplanes into skyscrapers and strapping bombs and blowing up trains or from where whackos start clamoring for the Jewish equivalent of sharia, you can bet that synagogues would come under the same intense scrutiny as mosques. Non sequitur.

Well, in the eyes of every Muslim, the Jews in occupied Palestine and those whom are outside funding them are doing what is worse than that on a daily basis. Why don't those come under scrutiny ? Because they use expensive weapons to achieve the same purpose? Extremist Jews interpret Jewish texts in order to give them the right to take away or in their own words take back what God has give them. What is the difference really?


But what does that have to do with Minarets anyways? How does all of that link back to Minarets?

As far as extremists are concerned, the reason why most muslim countries have become s**tholes is because the cowards, sorry moderates never stood up to the extremists in their midst.

I beg to differ, it's because we have been supporting every dictator in the Middle-East either directly or indirectly AND sponsoring Israel. That is you can't shut the extremist up in the Middle East because they make some valid fcking points. They ask if the US is about freedom and democracy then why does it allow Israel to attack and kill and steal land? And if it's about freedom and democracy then why does it have a long standing history supporting dictators all over the world? How can you answer those questions in a way that shuts the extremists up? You can't while staying on the west's side.

It's about time that someone took a stand and said "enough is enough".

Where we as Americans able to stop our Army from going to Iraq? All the protesting and all the anger and all the dead troops and still no result, why do you expect that moderates whom would be put at heavy risks including losing their lives would endanger themselves to defend how the west is supporting dictatorship and theft of land?

It's easy to judge from the other side, but in the Middle East the picture is much MUCH different than how you see it from here.

Why is it that it is always how democratic societies are "failing muslims" but it's never about why muslims are failing democratic societies.

Because it's democratic socities that have been preaching freedom of expression and belief to Muslims for centuries. Yet something as simple as Minarets becomes a No No in an open and democratic country such as Switzerland. You get it? The moderates know they don't have a shot at making a difference in the East but what they didn't count on, was the extremists winning in Europe as well, thanks to such policies as the one we are discussing right now.

And try building a non-muslim place of worship in muslim countries and see what the reaction would be.

Plenty of Muslims countries allow non-Muslim places of worship, but why oh why do you want to compare what is more advanced to what is more regressive? Isn't the West supposed to set the better example? How can the west be better if we act the same?

 

[Zorkorist]

I thought that Western democracy was better than Saudi-style totalitarianism because of our freedom. And now, you (and many others) are saying that we should act like the Saudis and forget about religious freedom. I'm confused. . . .

You are forgettinng that your religion is trying to kill us.

You could call what we are doin, self defense, but I believe we will attack soon.

 

[grebe925]

I thought that Western democracy was better than Saudi-style totalitarianism because of our freedom. And now, you (and many others) are saying that we should act like the Saudis and forget about religious freedom. I'm confused. . . .

Don't be. This is simply about Saudi-style totalitarianism infiltrating Western democracy through subterfuge.

 

[Zorkorist]

Well, in the eyes of every Muslim, the Jews in occupied Palestine and those whom are outside funding them are doing what is worse than that on a daily basis. Why don't those come under scrutiny ? Because they use expensive weapons to achieve the same purpose? Extremist Jews interpret Jewish texts in order to give them the right to take away or in their own words take back what God has give them. What is the difference really?


But what does that have to do with Minarets anyways? How does all of that link back to Minarets?

I beg to differ, it's because we have been supporting every dictator in the Middle-East either directly or indirectly AND sponsoring Israel. That is you can't shut the extremist up in the Middle East because they make some valid fcking points. They ask if the US is about freedom and democracy then why does it allow Israel to attack and kill and steal land? And if it's about freedom and democracy then why does it have a long standing history supporting dictators all over the world? How can you answer those questions in a way that shuts the extremists up? You can't while staying on the west's side.


Where we as Americans able to stop our Army from going to Iraq? All the protesting and all the anger and all the dead troops and still no result, why do you expect that moderates whom would be put at heavy risks including losing their lives would endanger themselves to defend how the west is supporting dictatorship and theft of land?

It's easy to judge from the other side, but in the Middle East the picture is much MUCH different than how you see it from here.


Because it's democratic socities that have been preaching freedom of expression and belief to Muslims for centuries. Yet something as simple as Minarets becomes a No No in an open and democratic country such as Switzerland. You get it? The moderates know they don't have a shot at making a difference in the East but what they didn't count on, was the extremists winning in Europe as well, thanks to such policies as the one we are discussing right now.


Plenty of Muslims countries allow non-Muslim places of worship, but why oh why do you want to compare what is more advanced to what is more regressive? Isn't the West supposed to set the better example? How can the west be better if we act the same?

We aren't acting the same.

One world is trying to get up in the morning and go to work.

The other world is facing east, and praying for death to infidels.

See the difference?

 

[Zebo]

I thought that Western democracy was better than Saudi-style totalitarianism because of our freedom. And now, you (and many others) are saying that we should act like the Saudis and forget about religious freedom. I'm confused. . . .

Not much of a believer in democracy. Following current demographic trends in Europe whereby natives have less than 2 children and Muslims have 5 one can see how Sharia could be adopted though democratic institutions someday. Simple math.

I believe in individual freedoms, ones like laid out in the US constitution or UDHC and similar documents. Ones that are inalienable and unassailable. Presents an interesting corundum - on the one hand believing in individual right to practice any religion, but one religion would take that right away. What to do...

Don't have a good answer.

 

[sandorski]

sad day

 

[n yusef]

You are forgettinng that your religion is trying to kill us.

You could call what we are doin, self defense, but I believe we will attack soon.

I'm an atheist, which is probably why I don't think that the state is justified in banning the architecture of one specific religion, whether that state is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Swiss Confederation, or the United States of America.

 

[Zorkorist]

I'm atheist too, but that doesn't mean I don't love the human condition.

I look at actions; stoning gilrls, flying planes into buildings, cutting peoples heads off, and it becomes easy for me to attack Muslims.

 

[sandorski]

I'm atheist too, but that doesn't mean I don't love the human condition.

I look at actions; stoning gilrls, flying planes into buildings, cutting peoples heads off, and it becomes easy for me to attack Muslims.

Fail.

 

[Zorkorist]

LOL, let me guess. You're Canadian?

 

[surfsatwerk]

When religions become political they're bound to get legislated.

 

[sandorski]

LOL, let me guess. You're Canadian?

Ya, hence the correct response to your ridiculous conclusion.

 

[Zorkorist]

A one word response...

I know it is cold up there, so I was surprised to get a whole word this year.

 

[sandorski]

A one word response...

I know it is cold up there, so I was surprised to get a whole word this year.

Reason, Logic, and Efficiency keeps us warm.