Sweden's COVID response - "Oops"

[pmv]

All correct. But looking at the numbers, they appear to be on the down hill side. That could well change, but there doesn't appear to be any reason for that to happen. The numbers at the end of a year will tell the tale, but right now it looks like they simply went through it.

Not all of them 'went through it'. A great many - disproportionately the elderly and ethnic minorities - didn't come out the other side.

Also their economy has taken a big hit anyway.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Do you understand how that cant work in Trumplandia?
You cant have a fucking war on masks and attempt what Sweden did.
Fuck its stupid and moronic that I have to type this out to someone.
Shit.

Even if we agreed on some imaginary metrics that resulted in Swedens strategy being better than say Norway or Finland, it would NEVER EVER EVER *EVER* work for YOU. Never.

Except... you know... People in those other countries (European) ARENT wearing masks Detective Sherlock

The ones that are wearing them at a high rate are mostly countries that have always had it in their culture:








But as I said earlier, why use facts when you can just use your feelings instead?

 

[Grey_Beard]

Looks like the numbers are mounting for the deaths. Seems we are experiencing a dramatic increase over a “typical” span. Maybe it’s because of those not wearing a mask? I bet Someonewholosttheirmind will say the deaths for COVID are over counted.

True Pandemic Toll in the U.S. Reaches 377,000 (Published 2021)

Since coronavirus struck, more people have died than usual in every state of the country, with 23 states seeing deaths above normal peaking in the last two months, according to a New York Times analysis.

www.nytimes.com

 

[cytg111]

Except... you know... People in those other countries (European) ARENT wearing masks Detective Sherlock

The ones that are wearing them at a high rate are mostly countries that have always had it in their culture:

View attachment 27687






But as I said earlier, why use facts when you can just use your feelings instead?

Of course they are. Its recommended to wear a mask when using public transportation, recommended NOT mandated... guess what, people are putting on that mask when in transit.
Moving from your own home to your own car? No. No one is wearing a mask for that. Yet.

Cute try though. No actually it was quite moronic. But hey, why let reality get in the face of your agenda. Mr. 25%'er.

To mask or not to mask, it all depends on where your infection rate is at. But you wouldnt understand that.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Of course they are. Its recommended to wear a mask when using public transportation, recommended NOT mandated... guess what, people are putting on that mask when in transit.
Moving from your own home to your own car? No. No one is wearing a mask for that. Yet.

Cute try though. No actually it was quite moronic. But hey, why let reality get in the face of your agenda. Mr. 25%'er.

To mask or not to mask, it all depends on where your infection rate is at. But you wouldnt understand that.

Once again, I posted facts - and you respond with your feelings. Typical child.

 

[cytg111]

Once again, I posted facts - and you respond with your feelings. Typical child.

"How often people from different places say they wear a mask when they leave the house"

Its an amazing fact. Truly. Amazing. What is this "fact" proof of in your mind ... Hahahahahahahaha

 

[Ajay]

Except... you know... People in those other countries (European) ARENT wearing masks Detective Sherlock

The ones that are wearing them at a high rate are mostly countries that have always had it in their culture:

View attachment 27687






But as I said earlier, why use facts when you can just use your feelings instead?

Or countries that learned their lesson, like Italy. Or Germany, who got the memo. The Scandinavian countries - don't know WTF they are up to (all though from what I've seen in the news, they don't seem to congregate in large groups).
At least the US is finally getting the point that masks and social distancing are the most effective methods for cutting down the transmission of Covid - long way to go though.

 

[pmv]

Once again, I posted facts - and you respond with your feelings. Typical child.

Though the facts you posted refer to 'wearing a mask when leaving the house'. The advice here is to wear a mask when in shops or on public transport, or otherwise indoors with people who aren't members of your household. Personally I hardly ever wear a mask, but I haven't been in a shop since before the lockdown. I wear one to answer the door to the supermarket home delivery guy, and that's about the only time it's relevant. I don't personally feel a need to wear one when just walking about outdoors, especially as I try to obey the 'social distancing' thing (I find myself getting unreasonably irritated with people who don't make any effort to give you enough space).

 

[FaaR]

Lets figure out why we're not Sweden.

Well, for starters there exists a certain difference in mentalities. For one thing, certain Mericans, thickheaded conservatives especially when presented with essential personal guidelines like social distancing or mask wearing and whatnot go like, "you can't tell me what to do!", and then start looking for the nearest covid party to join.

Swedish people in general on the other hand at least try to follow the advice of experts and relevant authorities, because they haven't been brainwashed into ignorant, science-hating brainless zombies by a shitstorm of talk radio and Faux News talking heads propaganda and disinformation for decades on end.

...Not that Sweden's covid response has been perfect by any means mind you. Unlike The Orange Deity's phonecall record!

 

[teejee]

Good for them. They're death rate is 7% and the country has 10 million people.

Ours is 3% and has 330 million people.

Care to do the math?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/17/how-sweden-fought-coronavirus-and-what-went-wrong.html

You can't have a culture of personal responsibility and science believers in a country like the USA where those things arent the mainstream.

death rate cannot be used to compare between countries. It depends entirely on test policy.
One of the mistakes Sweden made was that they tested very little until mid-June. Before that only people with severe symptoms and people working in health care got tested. And the vast majority of the deaths were before mid-June. So the death rate of 7% is among people with severe symptoms and health care workers. Obviosly that group has a high death rate.

I live in Sweden and don’t like the mistakes we made in the beginning (acted too slow).
But right now there are about 0.3 deaths per day per million in Sweden and about 3.5 in US.
So something is not working in US now.

 

[woolfe9998]

Why not look at it scientifically and try to understand why Sweden ended up with a good result from what appeared to be a foolish response? Clearly something worked, and worked fairly well. Just saying "we're not Sweden" isn't science, it's political agenda. Lets figure out why we're not Sweden.

Sweden so far has had a worse outcome than the US, if measured by deaths per capita. They have more dead per million people than we do.

This contagion seems to fluctuate. Last week Sweden had more new cases than the previous. Might be the start of another spike. Might not. We'll see.

 

[pmv]

death rate cannot be used to compare between countries. It depends entirely on test policy.
One of the mistakes Sweden made was that they tested very little until mid-June. Before that only people with severe symptoms and people working in health care got tested. And the vast majority of the deaths were before mid-June. So the death rate of 7% is among people with severe symptoms and health care workers. Obviosly that group has a high death rate.

I live in Sweden and don’t like the mistakes we made in the beginning (acted too slow).
But right now there are about 0.3 deaths per day per million in Sweden and about 3.5 in US.
So something is not working in US now.

This argument seems to have gotten a bit confused - though I don't think the confusion started with you. The 7% figure appears to be case-fatality rate rather than per capita death rate, and that is indeed going to depend on testing policy. However the 'death rate' _per capita_ is not really dependent on test policy (except insofar as countries that don't test much are going tol tend to have a higher death rate because wihtout testing they likely haven't done a good job at controlling infection) and Sweden has also had a higher _per capita_ death rate than the US (US about 500 per million, Sweden 570) so its strategy can hardly be seen as a success.

 

[cytg111]

Sweden also did this

https://www.thelocal.com/20200623/how-sweden-doubled-intensive-care-capacity-to-treat-coronavirus-patients

The idea of letting the virus "rip" through, as in going towards herd immunity is a non starter. The best we can do is minimizing the fatalities until a vaccine arrives.

Sweden gambled that its hospitals wouldnt break under the pressure, a big gamble, and took another path of acceptable fatalities vs. not locking the country down as hard as neighbors.
Come early 2021 and a vaccine Sweden will have paid a bigger toll in term of human life and gained something in terms of the economy.

 

[ch33zw1z]

death rate cannot be used to compare between countries. It depends entirely on test policy.
One of the mistakes Sweden made was that they tested very little until mid-June. Before that only people with severe symptoms and people working in health care got tested. And the vast majority of the deaths were before mid-June. So the death rate of 7% is among people with severe symptoms and health care workers. Obviosly that group has a high death rate.

I live in Sweden and don’t like the mistakes we made in the beginning (acted too slow).
But right now there are about 0.3 deaths per day per million in Sweden and about 3.5 in US.
So something is not working in US now.

You can use that metric to compare, but I agree it's not the best. Each country has chosen how they react, and the variables are included. If they didn't want a high death rate, then more testing is required.

However, I prefer to compare deaths per 1 million population. IMO, this seems to be the best metric for how a country is doing overall. Of course, that relies on accurate and honest reporting of deaths.

 

[pmv]

Sweden also did this

https://www.thelocal.com/20200623/how-sweden-doubled-intensive-care-capacity-to-treat-coronavirus-patients

The idea of letting the virus "rip" through, as in going towards herd immunity is a non starter. The best we can do is minimizing the fatalities until a vaccine arrives.

Sweden gambled that its hospitals wouldnt break under the pressure, a big gamble, and took another path of acceptable fatalities vs. not locking the country down as hard as neighbors.
Come early 2021 and a vaccine Sweden will have paid a bigger toll in term of human life and gained something in terms of the economy.

It seems to be debatable whether they really gained a lot economically. Sweden is export-focussed, and has suffered from the recession everywhere else. Though, to be honest, though I was thinking of things I've read saying Sweden was suffering economically anyway, seems if you Google Sweden+coronavirus+economy you find a lot of wildly contradictory interpretations of the same economic statistics.

This BBC article says Sweden has been hit 'less hard' economically than other countries, but the data it includes seems to show it's nevertheless been hit pretty hard.

Coronavirus: Sweden's economy hit less hard by pandemic

After avoiding a Covid-19 lockdown, the country sees its economy shrink less than in other EU nations.

www.bbc.co.uk

Seems clear the 'herd immunity through infection' idea (which I've seen being relentlessly pushed by libertarians across the web since the pandemic began - usually with the standard 'I'm so much smarter than everyone else' attitude that libertarians tend to have) really didn't pan out. And Sweden did have the advantage of low population density, lots of single person households, a good quality centrally-run health-care system, and a co-operative populous.

Sweden’s Gamble On Coronavirus: Has It Paid Off? [Update]

Whether having opted for a stringent lockdown or a more lenient policy like Sweden's, for the time being countries must rely on development of treatments for the critically ill, and continued physical distancing, hygiene, face coverings, and contact tracing, until there is an effective vaccine.

www.forbes.com

 

[cytg111]

It seems to be debatable whether they really gained a lot economically. Sweden is export-focussed, and has suffered from the recession everywhere else. Though, to be honest, though I was thinking of things I've read saying Sweden was suffering economically anyway, seems if you Google Sweden+coronavirus+economy you find a lot of wildly contradictory interpretations of the same economic statistics.

This BBC article says Sweden has been hit 'less hard' economically than other countries, but the data it includes seems to show it's nevertheless been hit pretty hard.

Coronavirus: Sweden's economy hit less hard by pandemic

After avoiding a Covid-19 lockdown, the country sees its economy shrink less than in other EU nations.

www.bbc.co.uk

Seems clear the 'herd immunity through infection' idea (which I've seen being relentlessly pushed by libertarians across the web since the pandemic began - usually with the standard 'I'm so much smarter than everyone else' attitude that libertarians tend to have) really didn't pan out. And Sweden did have the advantage of low population density, lots of single person households, a good quality centrally-run health-care system, and a co-operative populous.

Sweden’s Gamble On Coronavirus: Has It Paid Off? [Update]

Whether having opted for a stringent lockdown or a more lenient policy like Sweden's, for the time being countries must rely on development of treatments for the critically ill, and continued physical distancing, hygiene, face coverings, and contact tracing, until there is an effective vaccine.

www.forbes.com

Yea, I was contemplating arguing the first bolded part as well, though decided against in cause if the ABC's of this thing is above green and someones head this sure as bleep will not resonate. But yea, whatever gain they might have had from their procedure is sort of negated by everyone around them not doing the same. I am not saying Denmark's choice of protocol is better than Sweden's in terms of *everything*, it would just have made sense if all had followed the same path, be it the Sweden model or something else.

To the last bolded part, this is the major key I think. 25% of Swedens population do not believe that chemtrails are turning Swedish frogs gay. That and they sort of trust their government, not some phantom Q acid trip.

 

[teejee]

You can use that metric to compare, but I agree it's not the best. Each country has chosen how they react, and the variables are included. If they didn't want a high death rate, then more testing is required.

However, I prefer to compare deaths per 1 million population. IMO, this seems to be the best metric for how a country is doing overall. Of course, that relies on accurate and honest reporting of deaths.

Both metrics you mention above concerns the total response during the pandemic. But you responded to a post talking about current situation in Sweden.

Swedens reponse early was really bad, we got a much higher peak in April than neighbouring countries. That can never be undone.

Deaths per million per day is probably the best metric to compare how countries fare now (if we trust their statistics). This is the metric where Sweden quickly and recently got ten times lower than US.

 

[teejee]

This argument seems to have gotten a bit confused - though I don't think the confusion started with you. The 7% figure appears to be case-fatality rate rather than per capita death rate, and that is indeed going to depend on testing policy. However the 'death rate' _per capita_ is not really dependent on test policy (except insofar as countries that don't test much are going tol tend to have a higher death rate because wihtout testing they likely haven't done a good job at controlling infection) and Sweden has also had a higher _per capita_ death rate than the US (US about 500 per million, Sweden 570) so its strategy can hardly be seen as a success.

Swedens total reponse was bad, we got far too high peak in April due to far too weak response in March. This caused a huge number of deaths in April/May.

The post I responded to was a response to a post about current situation. Then we need to look at other metrics.

Currently deaths per day per million is ten times lower in Sweden than US. But until a month ago US had lower number for this.

 

[zinfamous]

Why not look at it scientifically and try to understand why Sweden ended up with a good result from what appeared to be a foolish response? Clearly something worked, and worked fairly well. Just saying "we're not Sweden" isn't science, it's political agenda. Lets figure out why we're not Sweden.

interesting point.

Let's do Universal Healthcare in the US.

Sweden does it! Why not us?

......and the response?

 

[zinfamous]

This forum just proves the notion of "Why use facts when you can just use your feelings instead?"

yes.

and it's every fucking post you make.

every.


mother.

fucking.

one.

and you fucking know it.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Both metrics you mention above concerns the total response during the pandemic. But you responded to a post talking about current situation in Sweden.

Death rate doesn't have to include total response. It's about only cases identified and deaths attributed to the virus.

Swedens reponse early was really bad, we got a much higher peak in April than neighbouring countries. That can never be undone.

Agreed, they made they're choice. However, comparing to the U.S. is difficult, we have each state acting as a Sweden. That's really the point here. Sweden as I understand it acts as one country. Whereas the U.S. has very poor national leadership, so each state was left to make decisions independently.

The U.S. response overall has been poor. Anti-science culture has a strong foot hold here. Freedumb doesn't too.

Deaths per million per day is probably the best metric to compare how countries fare now (if we trust their statistics). This is the metric where Sweden quickly and recently got ten times lower than US.

I haven't been looking at deaths per 1M pop per day. I have no reason to doubt this tho. Still deaths per 1M pop Sweden has us beat. IMO, we will over take them in the near future.

The argument from our freedumb loving conservatives is often "yea, but Sweden", and has been since end of March. Even tho, as you state, the initial response was not good.

Many people in the U.S. just don't wanna care, and can't be bothered to see the big picture. Intellectual laziness is a real thing here.

 

[cytg111]

Death rate doesn't have to include total response. It's about only cases identified and deaths attributed to the virus.



Agreed, they made they're choice. However, comparing to the U.S. is difficult, we have each state acting as a Sweden. That's really the point here. Sweden as I understand it acts as one country. Whereas the U.S. has very poor national leadership, so each state was left to make decisions independently.

The U.S. response overall has been poor. Anti-science culture has a strong foot hold here. Freedumb doesn't too.



I haven't been looking at deaths per 1M pop per day. I have no reason to doubt this tho. Still deaths per 1M pop Sweden has us beat. IMO, we will over take them in the near future.

The argument from our freedumb loving conservatives is often "yea, but Sweden", and has been since end of March. Even tho, as you state, the initial response was not good.

Many people in the U.S. just don't wanna care, and can't be bothered to see the big picture. Intellectual laziness is a real thing here.

You can see Trumps talking point already "We do the SAME as Sweden and they are doing GREAT" ... "Also, white people".
Its that Bowling Green Massacre - line that Green so desperately wants to cross.

 

[ch33zw1z]

You can see Trumps talking point already "We do the SAME as Sweden and they are doing GREAT" ... "Also, white people".
Its that Bowling Green Massacre - line that Green so desperately wants to cross.

Trump says whatever feels right, no facts needed. Irony.

 

[TheVrolok]

and you fucking know it.

I actually don't think he does. At all. The only way you get like that is a complete lack of insight and no ability to self monitor.

 

[jmagg]

How many Swedes will die due to Stefan Löfvens indifference and incompetence to COVID-45?