[Sweclockers] AMD opens up about Freesync

[NostaSeronx]

Sadly people are forgetting Intel; they own half the market - this is something that would seriously help craptastic igpu - ....they are the dark horse here

Broadwell and CherryTrail will be housing a DisplayPort that supports Adaptive Sync. It is unknown if they will follow AMD with a gaming specific of Adaptive Sync.

 

[Mand]

Pretty much ^_^

I think G-Sync will evolve to use the VESA spec, but the current implementation is dead

That's assuming the VESA spec route is a superior implementation. Nvidia has already said that they think G-Sync is better.

 

[PPB]

That's assuming the VESA spec route is a superior implementation. Nvidia has already said that they think G-Sync is better.

Sadly to hear but not always the technically better IP is the one to succeed. CUDA for example is nicer to the developer than OpenCL is ATM, but one is propietary and thus doomed to reach a dead end, while the other is an open standard.

In fact, it is always expected that closed enviorments or propietary IPs to work better than free alternatives, because the hardware/software range is narrowed vs the open standard ones, and both enviorments are developed to best fit the other one. The implementation has to be a lot better in the closed standard to overcome the difficulty of the narrower selection of capable software/hardware. In this particular case, I feel FreeSync, while worse, would be too "good enough" for Nvidia to be able to capitalize such a restrictive solution they have developed with G-sync. For the extra cost you have to pay for G-sync you could actually buy a better video card and just go with FreeSync.

Another thing really confusing with G-sync is that the demographic target of this solution (people on mobile and people that have GPUs not able to push the FPS higher than the refresh rate to use Vsync) are already budget constrained enough to buy a whole new g-sync capable monitor or have the money to buy the ASIC. Not even talking about mobile users (I think the best fit for both Gsync and FreeSync), with Gsync they are just boned, meanwhile with Freesync they might even be sporting an eDP connector and capable iGP/dGPU right now.

 

[piesquared]

That's assuming the VESA spec route is a superior implementation. Nvidia has already said that they think G-Sync is better.

And you're assuming that gsync is a superior implementation. AMD has already said that they think A-Sync is better. As does VESA, and it's an open standard that everyone can adopt, including intel. A-Sync also has power saving features built in which can be leveraged by last generation GPU's. There's no doubt that G Sync will fade away and end up in the same trash bin that Physx got tossed into.

 

[BrightCandle]

I have emailed all the of main monitor suppliers asking them which monitors of their current line up will be getting Freesync update. Benq is the first to come back and said the following:

Currently, we have no information about any possible firmware release to support freesync from AMD.

The implication is that Benq is not one of the partners AMD is working with.

 

[Leadbox]

I have emailed all the of main monitor suppliers asking them which monitors of their current line up will be getting Freesync update. Benq is the first to come back and said the following:



The implication is that Benq is not one of the partners AMD is working with.

Not sure they would share any info with you if they had it and why would you ask after freesync and firmware and not hardware and adaptive sync?

 

[NostaSeronx]

You shouldn't have said "FreeSync" from AMD but "Adaptive Sync" from VESA. "Free Sync" is a software slash hardware algorithm to use Adaptive Sync for games. Monitors don't need to support FreeSync while they need to support Adaptive Sync.

http://www.vesa.org/featured-articles/vesa-adds-adaptive-sync-to-popular-displayport-video-standard/

Adaptive-Sync is a proven and widely adopted technology. The technology has been a standard component of VESA’s embedded DisplayPort (eDP&#8482 specification since its initial rollout in 2009. As a result, Adaptive-Sync technology is already incorporated into many of the building block components for displays that rely on eDP for internal video signaling. Newly introduced to the DisplayPort 1.2a specification for external displays, this technology is now formally known as DisplayPort Adaptive-Sync.

 

[Mondozei]

The German website Computerbase are now reporting that AMD have lined up Asus, Philips, AOC and Iiyama for their Freesync-compatible monitors in their initial batch of monitor manufacturers.

Asus, which is typically ahead most other companies when it comes to new monitor technology(they did the first consumer-facing 4K monitor that actually got noticed, ahead of everyone else), is planning their first Freesync monitor to come out in H1 of 2015.

Considering that Asus is ahead of the curve we may not find a broader array of monitors until holiday season of 2015.

So assuming no more delays, we'll see our first decent G-Sync monitors from Asus(ROG Swift) and Acer(the 4K montior) this summer.
About a year of an advantage until the first Freesync model comes out from Asus.

 

[parvadomus]

Sadly to hear but not always the technically better IP is the one to succeed. CUDA for example is nicer to the developer than OpenCL is ATM, but one is propietary and thus doomed to reach a dead end, while the other is an open standard.

CUDA is doomed since the day that intel started to follow AMD with OpenCL. And since Intel entered the HPC arena with xeon phi. But anyway the propietary stuff is always a short-mid term solution to differentiate products.

 

[BrightCandle]

Just spoke to Iiyama on the phone about Freesync/adaptive vsync support. They said a few things that were quite interesting. The first was that none of their lineup can possible support it because the scalars in them don't support 1.2a. A hardware change in the scalar is necessary to support the functionality. Novatech (one of the scalar manufacturers) has been spoken to by Iiyama about support for the technology and Novatech said that theoretically its possible to implement it but right now they aren't considering doing so because the market is too small. They shift 50 million scalars a year and the gamer market is more like 10k units a year as is and isn't worth the investment.

This is damning news. Admittedly its second hand from a iiyama presales but he doesn't expect to see monitors this year and novatech wont even consider support until the next generation scalar which is due end of the year, likely meaning monitors are well over 18 months away!

He also talked about gsync not really being worth the cost. His concern is that the technology itself is only really valuable at low FPS and the money is better spent on faster graphics cards and a 144hz monitor.

I have to say I wasn't expecting as much information as I got but dang that is really interesting discussion for about 15 minutes on monitor technology.

 

[parvadomus]

Just spoke to Iiyama on the phone about Freesync/adaptive vsync support. They said a few things that were quite interesting. The first was that none of their lineup can possible support it because the scalars in them don't support 1.2a. A hardware change in the scalar is necessary to support the functionality. Novatech (one of the scalar manufacturers) has been spoken to by Iiyama about support for the technology and Novatech said that theoretically its possible to implement it but right now they aren't considering doing so because the market is too small. They shift 50 million scalars a year and the gamer market is more like 10k units a year as is and isn't worth the investment.

This is damning news. Admittedly its second hand from a iiyama presales but he doesn't expect to see monitors this year and novatech wont even consider support until the next generation scalar which is due end of the year, likely meaning monitors are well over 18 months away!

He also talked about gsync not really being worth the cost. His concern is that the technology itself is only really valuable at low FPS and the money is better spent on faster graphics cards and a 144hz monitor.

I have to say I wasn't expecting as much information as I got but dang that is really interesting discussion for about 15 minutes on monitor technology.

A 144hz monitor with vsync is probably a better buy than a G-Sync enabled monitor. Nice point.

 

[bystander36]

He also talked about gsync not really being worth the cost. His concern is that the technology itself is only really valuable at low FPS and the money is better spent on faster graphics cards and a 144hz monitor.

That doesn't quite add up to me. No graphics card is going to allow for 144 FPS on many if not most newer games. You can't throw enough money at it to get there as it is usually the CPU and game engine limitation, where as G-sync will help smooth things out immediately, and even allows you to not upgrade nearly as soon as you'd otherwise.

If perfectly smooth is what you want, G-sync is still cheaper. The question is, "Is perfectly smooth frames worth the cost?" It is not about what is the more cost effect way to get perfectly smooth tear free gaming, as only G-sync can get you that.

 

[Mand]

And you're assuming that gsync is a superior implementation.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that there isn't any reason whatsoever to believe that FreeSync is better, since we know precisely nothing about it beyond lies, deception, and spin.

 

[parvadomus]

That doesn't quite add up to me. No graphics card is going to allow for 144 FPS on many if not most newer games. You can't throw enough money at it to get there as it is usually the CPU and game engine limitation, where as G-sync will help smooth things out immediately, and even allows you to not upgrade nearly as soon as you'd otherwise.

If perfectly smooth is what you want, G-sync is still cheaper. The question is, "Is perfectly smooth frames worth the cost?" It is not about what is the more cost effect way to get perfectly smooth tear free gaming, as only G-sync can get you that.

It does not matter if the GPU reachs 144FPS, being 144hz makes vsync much more responsive to the point where input lag is almost unnoticeable, that´s the point.

 

[BrightCandle]

Eizo got back to me:

I can confirm that we currently have no plans of incorporating this functionality into our monitors.

Our latest monitor the Foris FG2421 http://www.eizo.com/global/products/foris/fg2421/index.html has superior technology built in to the screen that negates the need for features like Freesync and G-sync.

So Eizo has no interest in it at all, definitely no Freesync coming from them they prefer their "240" hz low persistence monitor and I agree its likely the best gaming monitor available today because of it.

 

[bystander36]

It does not matter if the GPU reachs 144FPS, being 144hz makes vsync much more responsive to the point where input lag is almost unnoticeable, that´s the point.

Not from my experience. Or maybe I should say that it is still a problem, though improved. I may be more sensitive than most, as I get nausea due to latency and stuttering.

 

[BrightCandle]

I few others got back to me as well wanting me to call their presales rather than returning my email. I'll have to do that standard business hours Monday but I'll keep you guys posted. Haven't yet heard back from a single company that can a) upgrade an existing monitor on sale that can take Freesync in the future or b) has definite plans to make one. I urge people interested in this to repeat my experiment. Get a list of 10 companies and go ask them about existing monitors that they intend to upgrade firmware on for Freesync and what their plans are in regards to this technology. If nothing else a load of people calling these companies from all over the world might convince them to support the technology. Although at this point iiyama has told us pretty much everything we need to know - its a lie that an existing monitor can not be updated and more to the point they are a long way off due to the scalar manufacturers having no interest.

 

[blackened23]

It does not matter if the GPU reachs 144FPS, being 144hz makes vsync much more responsive to the point where input lag is almost unnoticeable, that´s the point.

Yep, and i'm sure tons of GPUs can push every game maxed out to 150 fps @1440p right? Wait, that turns out to not be the case at all. G-sync would be beneficial because anyone thinking that any single GPU will push every game to the 144hz barrier @ 1440p would be VERY VERY wrong. G-sync would essentially go a long way to solve this problem by making gaming smooth at lower framerates where applicable. Make no mistake, at 1440p and high/ultra settings it is not a cakewalk. The games can be demanding if you're someone who links to crank settings. And you simply will never be able to hit 144+ fps in most AAA games consistently.

The big issue with G-sync right now is that the only thing available is the FPGA DIY kit, which is too expensive. Most buyers won't buy the DIY kit for that very reason (myself included), but the newer monitors will be using ASIC scalers with integrated g-sync which will be far cheaper; remember FPGA is expensive by nature but NV used it to speed the DIY kit to market. ASIC integration is far, far more cost effective and I do believe the integrated g-sync monitors will be reasonable in price. We'll see, though. I think the ROG swift is due for release in July - being that it's the first 144hz certified 1440p panel, i'm quite interested in it.

 

[BrightCandle]

ROG swift is due for release in July - being that it's the first 144hz certified 1440p panel, i'm quite interested in it.

Yep the swift is due next month. But its wickedly expensive, like $700+. Yes its a 1440p monitor with gsync but that is a lot for a monitor. I thought my Benq was expensive at £250 and my Dell 2410 at £300 but £600-£700 for a 1440p is expensive no doubt about it.

PS I agree completely that getting games above 100 fps is tough and think gsync/freesync is an important technology. Just passing on the Iiyama conversation and opinion as fully as I could.

 

[blackened23]

Hmm, well, to be fair, once you get into high quality 1440p panels they do cost north of 700$ anyway. But you're paying for 10 bit color and higher quality components. You can, of course, get the bargain bin junk korean panels for 300$ (i'm not a fan obviously) but you generally get what you pay for, especially in terms of warranty.

It is expensive at 700$, but then again, 24 inch lightboost panels have quite a price premium over non lightboost panels as well; you can buy a 24 inch LCD for 170$ while a lightboost model / 144hz costs about 300-400 (the BenQ XL2420T is 400$? I think) So with 1440p panels, you have an entire gamut of the low end korean panels at 350$+ or you can get a high quality 1440p which can range from 600 to 1000$ depending on which you buy. 700$ for the ROG swift definitely isn't cheap, but it's offering both 144hz and g-sync. 144hz is not available and certified on any other 1440p panel.

So basically, I can agree that it's a little expensive. But the price doesn't seem too far out of line for what it offers. What i'm hoping is that price rapidly goes down once it hits the market - that tends to happen with Asus panels pretty quickly. I don't disagree that a lower price would be better.

 

[parvadomus]

Yep, and i'm sure tons of GPUs can push every game maxed out to 150 fps @1440p right? Wait, that turns out to not be the case at all. G-sync would be beneficial because anyone thinking that any single GPU will push every game to the 144hz barrier @ 1440p would be VERY VERY wrong. G-sync would essentially go a long way to solve this problem by making gaming smooth at lower framerates where applicable. Make no mistake, at 1440p and high/ultra settings it is not a cakewalk. The games can be demanding if you're someone who links to crank settings. And you simply will never be able to hit 144+ fps in most AAA games consistently.

The big issue with G-sync right now is that the only thing available is the FPGA DIY kit, which is too expensive. Most buyers won't buy the DIY kit for that very reason (myself included), but the newer monitors will be using ASIC scalers with integrated g-sync which will be far cheaper; remember FPGA is expensive by nature but NV used it to speed the DIY kit to market. ASIC integration is far, far more cost effective and I do believe the integrated g-sync monitors will be reasonable in price. We'll see, though. I think the ROG swift is due for release in July - being that it's the first 144hz certified 1440p panel, i'm quite interested in it.

You didn´t read what I posted. Try again.

 

[Phynaz]

With Nvidia not supporting Freesync

Have they stated they will not support / implement DisplayPort Adaptive Sync? So far all I've read from Nvidia is "No comment".

 

[3DVagabond]

I have emailed all the of main monitor suppliers asking them which monitors of their current line up will be getting Freesync update. Benq is the first to come back and said the following:



The implication is that Benq is not one of the partners AMD is working with.

You really asked them about Free-Sync? Free-Sync is the AMD side of the feature. Monitors support Adaptive-Sync. You know that though. Just like you should know companies don't reveal future business plans that haven't been made public through their customer support network. This is way beneath you.

 

[chimaxi83]

Just spoke to Iiyama on the phone about Freesync/adaptive vsync support. They said a few things that were quite interesting. The first was that none of their lineup can possible support it because the scalars in them don't support 1.2a. A hardware change in the scalar is necessary to support the functionality. Novatech (one of the scalar manufacturers) has been spoken to by Iiyama about support for the technology and Novatech said that theoretically its possible to implement it but right now they aren't considering doing so because the market is too small. They shift 50 million scalars a year and the gamer market is more like 10k units a year as is and isn't worth the investment.

This is damning news. Admittedly its second hand from a iiyama presales but he doesn't expect to see monitors this year and novatech wont even consider support until the next generation scalar which is due end of the year, likely meaning monitors are well over 18 months away!

He also talked about gsync not really being worth the cost. His concern is that the technology itself is only really valuable at low FPS and the money is better spent on faster graphics cards and a 144hz monitor.

I have to say I wasn't expecting as much information as I got but dang that is really interesting discussion for about 15 minutes on monitor technology.

Admittedly, this is all second hand from some random forum member, so take this "information" with a bag of salt. Does the company you work for allow its employees to answer random emails or phone calls concerning projects in development?

A reputable source for any of that might be credible.

 

[Madpacket]

It's a bit ignorant to just recommend buying a faster 144hz monitor with a high end graphic card. That's a brute force band aid solution to a systemic problem in how frame delivery times currently (don't) work.

Admittedly A/G-Sync makes the most sense at higher screen resolutions as even the most expensive video cards struggle to deliver smooth frame rates with full detail settings, so this is where the most benefit of even frame delivery will be.

1080P in a few years feel like using a crappy 15.6" laptop with 1366x768 resolution.