Surprise, surprise, Joe Biden was a draft dodger

[daveymark]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I can't quite grasp why that especially entitles him to be a hero. One can honor the man for his service and empathize with what he must have gone through as a prisoner, but it wasn't something he did intentionally. I am not, however, familiar with all the facts of his case

your admitted ignorance of the facts regarding mccain aside, what qualifies someone to be a hero? I'm sure I already know the answer to this, but what is your definition of hero? I'm curious that it may differ from the dictionary definition. If we(and by "we" I mean you and Mirriam-Webster) can't agree on the definition of a hero, then perhaps you're not ever going to grasp why he's entitled to be a hero.

Please refrain from elitist comments, thinly veiled put-downs, changing the subject, stereotyping me as a mccain supporter, or mentioning self hate in your response.

 

[kage69]

Seems the GOP-leaning crowd is running low on legitimate beefs with the Dem nominees...what a hollow shell of an issue! Seriously, Bush voters giving a sh!t about this is one hell of an ironic notion, unless being shameless hypocrites is fine by them.

The real story is, why do conservatives suddenly give one rat's ass about draft dodging and shirking military service? Seems you all kissed that disposition goodbye when you lauded and championed a pair that represented both the disgrace of going AWOL via GWB, and the cowardice of chickenhawk dodging a la DICK (5 student deferments, PLUS a curiously well-timed Expectant Father deferment once the 5 limit had been reached).

And on the other hand, we have Biden who was released by the DoD over it's own medical quals, and without exhibiting the support for war that Cheney did. Not sure about Joe's grades at the time, but I know Cheney was basically flunking out of school while claiming Student Deferments.

Well, under Bush standards, that qualifies Joe for president!

Technically, no. He'd have to get in, then suddenly disappear from both base and paper records months before being discharged, then somehow avoid being caught over it while running a few businesses into the ground.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: kage69
Seems the GOP-leaning crowd is running low on legitimate beefs with the Dem nominees...what a hollow shell of an issue! Seriously, Bush voters giving a sh!t about this is one hell of an ironic notion, unless being shameless hypocrites is fine by them.

The real story is, why do conservatives suddenly give one rat's ass about draft dodging and shirking military service? Seems you all kissed that disposition goodbye when you lauded and championed a pair that represented both the disgrace of going AWOL via GWB, and the cowardice of chickenhawk dodging a la DICK (5 student deferments, PLUS a curiously well-timed Expectant Father deferment once the 5 limit had been reached).

And on the other hand, we have Biden who was released by the DoD over it's own medical quals, and without exhibiting the support for war that Cheney did. Not sure about Joe's grades at the time, but I know Cheney was basically flunking out of school while claiming Student Deferments.

Well, under Bush standards, that qualifies Joe for president!

Technically, no. He'd have to get in, then suddenly disappear from both base and paper records months before being discharged, then somehow avoid being caught over it while running a few businesses into the ground.

Hey did you know John McCain was a POW?

 

[Stoneburner]

Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
[I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name.

In time of her defense yes that would be cowardly but to refuse to fight for a wrong cause is commendable.
I can assure you that if there was a draft over the last 5 years you would have seen the majority of draft age Americans refusing to serve in Iraq.

well, that's fine.. I'd personally volunteer to escort every single one of the fucking cowards to the border for a one-way boat-trip to wherever the fuck their boat sinks on their way to rot in hell for all eternity.

Like I said, it's a pet-peeve of mine... I personally place draft-dodging right up there with murder and rape.

seriously.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

That's grade-A bullshit. My comments apply to Americans, and Americans only. IMHO, to this day, there has not been an American war that would justify dodging the draft.

Not one.

I'll let you know the day I find it justifiable...to me. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Unless, of course, you wish to call me a baby-killer too... ?

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

Ah blow it out your as..., more power to him if he was able to lie and get out of fighting in that fucked up war. Now if he had gotten a free ride to college from the Military like McCain did then that'd be different.

I see that you ignored the rest of my post... oh, and I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

Pet peeve? Pet peeves are over something like kids leaving the toilet seat up- or people who drive slow in the left lane- something that touches our lives personally.

Heh. You weren't even a gleam in your daddy's eye at the time, and yet you seem to think you know what transpired, that Vietnam and the Draft were somehow about "defending merruhka"- I'll give you a hint- it wasn't, and neither is the current situation in Iraq.

The injustice of it all was astounding, and nearly tore the country apart. Guys like Dubya yukked it up at the TANG officers' club while kids whose families didn't have that kind of influence died in the mud, for no reason beyond stubborn pride and empire. It was the US' worst geopolitical disaster of the postwar era, and drove Irving Kristol and his co-delusionist warmongers out of the Democratic party and guess where they went? Do you know where the term "Neocon" actually comes from?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

Ah blow it out your as..., more power to him if he was able to lie and get out of fighting in that fucked up war. Now if he had gotten a free ride to college from the Military like McCain did then that'd be different.

I see that you ignored the rest of my post... oh, and I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

Pet peeve? Pet peeves are over something like kids leaving the toilet seat up- or people who drive slow in the left lane- something that touches our lives personally.

Heh. You weren't even a gleam in your daddy's eye at the time, and yet you seem to think you know what transpired, that Vietnam and the Draft were somehow about "defending merruhka"- I'll give you a hint- it wasn't, and neither is the current situation in Iraq.

The injustice of it all was astounding, and nearly tore the country apart. Guys like Dubya yukked it up at the TANG officers' club while kids whose families didn't have that kind of influence died in the mud, for no reason beyond stubborn pride and empire. It was the US' worst geopolitical disaster of the postwar era, and drove Irving Kristol and his co-delusionist warmongers out of the Democratic party and guess where they went? Do you know where the term "Neocon" actually comes from?

You're g'damn right cowardice "touches my life personally."

And, while I might have been just a gleam in my Daddy's eye... those eyes were in Vietnam where he, like me, volunteered to serve.

Fuck them. I hope there's a special place in hell for those pussies who have ever dodged a U.S. draft.

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, delusion is inheritable? I didn't know that...

Edit- I apologize for that. It was too quick and not really reflective of my thoughts or experience wrt Vietnam. Mea Culpa.

 

[palehorse]

At this point in time, only ego can account for any U.S. citizen who believes themselves above drafted service to the U.S. There has not yet been any war in U.S. history that justifies such a decision -- therefore, it can only be described as cowardice.

That's my say... I'm done here.

PLEASE NOTE: as I said in my first post, I do not place Biden in that category; nor will I, unless it's ever proven that he lied to avoid the draft.

 

[Vic]

As I believe that the very notion of a conscription army is antithetical to the principles of a free republic, then I say good for him.

And before I get attacked, my father volunteered to serve as well, in Korea. That's what the smart people do as volunteering into a conscript army practically guarantees choice of service.

As it is, it looks like Biden received several run-of-the-mill student deferments before being found medically unfit. So I can't see the draft dodging.

 

[dahunan]

looks like will get him the republican vote

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
[I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name.

In time of her defense yes that would be cowardly but to refuse to fight for a wrong cause is commendable.
I can assure you that if there was a draft over the last 5 years you would have seen the majority of draft age Americans refusing to serve in Iraq.

well, that's fine.. I'd personally volunteer to escort every single one of the fucking cowards to the border for a one-way boat-trip to wherever the fuck their boat sinks on their way to rot in hell for all eternity.

Like I said, it's a pet-peeve of mine... I personally place draft-dodging right up there with murder and rape.

seriously.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

That's grade-A bullshit. My comments apply to Americans, and Americans only. IMHO, to this day, there has not been an American war that would justify dodging the draft.

Not one.

I'll let you know the day I find it justifiable...to me. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Unless, of course, you wish to call me a baby-killer too... ?

Iraq.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: palehorse
That's grade-A bullshit. My comments apply to Americans, and Americans only. IMHO, to this day, there has not been an American war that would justify dodging the draft.

Not one.

I'll let you know the day I find it justifiable...to me. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Unless, of course, you wish to call me a baby-killer too... ?

Iraq.

There has not been a draft for Iraq.

Regardless, service in Iraq is honorable, is it not?

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: palehorse

IMHO, to this day, there has not been an American war that would justify dodging the draft.

Not one.

I think avoiding the draft for reasons of conscience during the war in Vietnam was justified and right. As with Iraq, we were there because our leaders lied to us about the reasons for going and staying.

If there were a draft, now, I would also support those who would avoid military service in Iraq.

If you want to draft anyone to go to Iraq, start with all those armchair soldiers in the Bushwhacko administration who lied us into the war. Then, move on to those in Congress who, even after the Bushwhacko lies were painfully obvious, waved their toy flags and claimed to support it but were too chickenshit to put their own asses on the line.

That said, I fully respect those who actually put their asses on the line for what they believe, and I've met enough vets from Iraq who would not have made the same choices if they knew what they now know when they enlisted.

 

[Jhhnn]

I think that what Palehorse fails to recognize is that there's draft dodging, and then there's draft dodging. All over America, National Guard and Reserve units along with the Coast Guard and the Merchant Marine somehow found ways to accomodate the scions of the wealthy and powerful, who later would claim to have served, to equate what they did with guys who fought and died for what they knew not.

During the Civil War, draftees could provide a personal replacement, pay somebody else to take their place. It was, however, a public list and a public declaration. It served the same purpose as duty in the vietnam era stay at home forces for many who could afford it, but they couldn't talk out of both sides of their mouths afterward...

I'm not prepared to take either absolutist side of the question, but the rationale behind vietnam certainly didn't merit the accusation that just because they drew your name out of a hat you were a coward if you did whatever you could to get out of it. It was far more complex than that. Some guys "believed in" the war, signed up- many of them came home totally disillusioned and screwed up. many more didn't believe in it, at all, and did whatever they could to stop it, including denying the govt the use of their bodies for the purpose. And a lot of people fell somewhere in between, weren't forced to make that tough choice, or didn't feel strongly enough about it to resist when coerced.

Those of us who lived it have found ways to accept each other, get past it on the basis of being honest and accepting the other guys' right to their pov. Very few of us accept the bullshit rationales of those who claim to have been for the war and yet found some way not to be in it, however...

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: palehorse
That's grade-A bullshit. My comments apply to Americans, and Americans only. IMHO, to this day, there has not been an American war that would justify dodging the draft.

Not one.

I'll let you know the day I find it justifiable...to me. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Unless, of course, you wish to call me a baby-killer too... ?

Iraq.

There has not been a draft for Iraq.

Regardless, service in Iraq is honorable, is it not?

I didn't say there was one.
If a draft was initiated for Iraq, I certainly would have dodged it.
It's too bad when you signup with the military you can't say "I want to be placed in Afghanistan, not Iraq". Once you sign those papers, they place you anywhere.

When I see Bush, Cheney, and anyone else who voted for this war that has never served in the military put their name on the list first, I'll put my name next.

Your second statement depends...Case by case basis.

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

lolololol0

 

[Bitek]

Fuck that. I'm not wasting my one life to live fighting in a war for someone else's personal gain. Border wars, resource wars, culture wars. Bullshit. Call me when someone is actually attacking me, my family or my country. Otherwise Napoleon can go fight the war himself.
Participating in a war with which you do not agree and killing those who have not wronged you is cowardice, moral weakness and inhumanity. Wars don't happen if the people involved refuse to fight.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
[I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name.

In time of her defense yes that would be cowardly but to refuse to fight for a wrong cause is commendable.
I can assure you that if there was a draft over the last 5 years you would have seen the majority of draft age Americans refusing to serve in Iraq.

well, that's fine.. I'd personally volunteer to escort every single one of the fucking cowards to the border for a one-way boat-trip to wherever the fuck their boat sinks on their way to rot in hell for all eternity.

Like I said, it's a pet-peeve of mine... I personally place draft-dodging right up there with murder and rape.

seriously.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

That's grade-A bullshit. My comments apply to Americans, and Americans only. IMHO, to this day, there has not been an American war that would justify dodging the draft.

Not one.

I'll let you know the day I find it justifiable...to me. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Unless, of course, you wish to call me a baby-killer too... ?

No, I'm glad you weren't there. You would have likely been fragged.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

I would love to live in your black and white world again. Perhaps you can explain to me why Cheney's deferments were bad while Bidens are ok.

The bottom line is both had deferrments yet some who blasted cheney for it are saying it is ok with Biden. Then turning around and blasting neo-cons and conservatives for saying it wasnt a big deal with Cheney back in the day.

The world you people paint yourselves is great. Like I said, would love to go back to it.

Personally I dont see it as an issue with Biden. Just like I didnt see it as an issue with Cheney.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

I would love to live in your black and white world again. Perhaps you can explain to me why Cheney's deferments were bad while Bidens are ok.

The bottom line is both had deferrments yet some who blasted cheney for it are saying it is ok with Biden. Then turning around and blasting neo-cons and conservatives for saying it wasnt a big deal with Cheney back in the day.

The world you people paint yourselves is great. Like I said, would love to go back to it.

Personally I dont see it as an issue with Biden. Just like I didnt see it as an issue with Cheney.

The critic of Cheney isn't that he had deferments, it's that he's so willing to send others off to die in an unnecessary war when he wasn't willing to go and fight in one himself

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

I would love to live in your black and white world again. Perhaps you can explain to me why Cheney's deferments were bad while Bidens are ok.

The bottom line is both had deferrments yet some who blasted cheney for it are saying it is ok with Biden. Then turning around and blasting neo-cons and conservatives for saying it wasnt a big deal with Cheney back in the day.

The world you people paint yourselves is great. Like I said, would love to go back to it.

Personally I dont see it as an issue with Biden. Just like I didnt see it as an issue with Cheney.

The critic of Cheney isn't that he had deferments, it's that he's so willing to send others off to die in an unnecessary war when he wasn't willing to go and fight in one himself

That is a pretty silly argument in all honesty. Are we now going judge whether our elected officials can send our armed forces into harms way based on whether they are willing to go themselves or had in the past? Under Obama does that mean he cant send them into armed conflict because he never served?

Do you see where I am going with this? You just required military service for a civilian post if you want our military utilized in any way under an administration.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

I would love to live in your black and white world again. Perhaps you can explain to me why Cheney's deferments were bad while Bidens are ok.

The bottom line is both had deferrments yet some who blasted cheney for it are saying it is ok with Biden. Then turning around and blasting neo-cons and conservatives for saying it wasnt a big deal with Cheney back in the day.

The world you people paint yourselves is great. Like I said, would love to go back to it.

Personally I dont see it as an issue with Biden. Just like I didnt see it as an issue with Cheney.

The critic of Cheney isn't that he had deferments, it's that he's so willing to send others off to die in an unnecessary war when he wasn't willing to go and fight in one himself

That is a pretty silly argument in all honesty. Are we now going judge whether our elected officials can send our armed forces into harms way based on whether they are willing to go themselves or had in the past? Under Obama does that mean he cant send them into armed conflict because he never served?

Do you see where I am going with this? You just required military service for a civilian post if you want our military utilized in any way under an administration.

No I didn't.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
Typical Pattern of the right wing's war on Comprehension.

Lib: Cheney is such a war mongerer, why did he dodge the draft!
Con: Who cares!

6 years later

Con: Biden dodged the draft!
Lib: Biden is not a war mongerer, as he supports diplomacy.
Con: FUCK YOU! I REFUSE TO SEE YOUR POINT AND WILL INSTEAD INSIST THIS IS ABOUT DRAFT DODGERY NOT THE PERSONAL CONSISTENCY OF THE SUBJECT PARTY! Oh noes my head hurts now.

I would love to live in your black and white world again. Perhaps you can explain to me why Cheney's deferments were bad while Bidens are ok.

The bottom line is both had deferrments yet some who blasted cheney for it are saying it is ok with Biden. Then turning around and blasting neo-cons and conservatives for saying it wasnt a big deal with Cheney back in the day.

The world you people paint yourselves is great. Like I said, would love to go back to it.

Personally I dont see it as an issue with Biden. Just like I didnt see it as an issue with Cheney.

The critic of Cheney isn't that he had deferments, it's that he's so willing to send others off to die in an unnecessary war when he wasn't willing to go and fight in one himself

That is a pretty silly argument in all honesty. Are we now going judge whether our elected officials can send our armed forces into harms way based on whether they are willing to go themselves or had in the past? Under Obama does that mean he cant send them into armed conflict because he never served?

Do you see where I am going with this? You just required military service for a civilian post if you want our military utilized in any way under an administration.

How is it silly? It's a character argument. How is "follow what I say, not what I done" leadership? Answer: It isn't. And you should expect more from your leaders. What happened to the party of accountability?

 

[Genx87]

As I have already said. How can a person like Obama instruct our military into battle if he hasnt himself or at least served?

I find that argument weak. We elect leaders to carry out the job description regardless of past qualifications. In this case a president will send our troops into battle even if he\she hasnt done so themselves.