Surprise, surprise, Joe Biden was a draft dodger

[Woofmeister]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
FYI, draft deferments =! draft dodging...

Do the research though, and compare his deferments with those of Cheney...check the reasons behind them...or, speaking of behinds, check the great Neocon hero, Rush "anal-cyst" Limbaugh's deferments...

You REALLY don't want to start comparing the military service records of the Democrats versus those of the Republicans...

You'll come up on the short end of the argument every time...

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

Rick Noriega, Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate from Texas -- joined the U.S. Army in 1979; currently Lt. Colonel in Texas Army National Guard, served in Afghanistan. (1)

Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) -- rifle platoon and company commander with the Fifth Marine Regiment in the An Hoa Basin west of Danang; was awarded the Navy Cross, the Silver Star Medal, two Bronze Star Medals, and two Purple Hearts. (1)

Representative Tim Walz, D-MN - Twenty-four years of service in the Army National Guard, retiring in 2005.

Representative Joe Sestak, D-PA - 31 years of service in the Navy, rising to the rank of Vice Admiral.

Representative Chris Carney, D-PA - Lieutenant Commander in the United States Naval Reserve, Carney served multiple tours overseas and was activated for Operation Enduring Freedom, Noble Eagle, and Southern Watch.

Representative Patrick Murphy, D-PA - extensive career in the U.S. Army from 1993-2004; earned Bronze Star and Presidential Unit Citation.

Representative Phil Hare, D-IL - Served in the United States Army Reserve for six years.

Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)

Former House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)

Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)

Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)

Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th

Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service

Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)

Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)

Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)

Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)

Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)

Senator Chris Dodd (D-CT) - U.S. Army Reserve, 1968-1975.

Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)

Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)

Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)

Former Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)

Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)

Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)

Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)

Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)

Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)

Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57

Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - 38-year career of public service in the Army, culminating as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.


Prominent Republicans
Representative Patrick McHenry, R-NC - did not serve. Saw fit to endanger American troops' lives after a visit to Iraq by violating operational security and helping militias target their mortar attacks on the Green Zone.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)

Senate Assistant Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-MI - avoided the draft, did not serve.


Senate Republican Conference Chairman Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve.

Senate Republican Conference Vice Chair John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve.

National Republican Senatorial Committee Chair John Ensign, R-NV - did not serve.

House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-OH - did not serve.

House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, R-MO - did not serve.

House Republican Conerence Chair Adam Putnam, R-FL - did not serve.

House Republican Policy Committee Thaddeus McCotter, R-MI - did not serve.

National Republican Congressional Committee Chair Tom Cole, R-OK - did not serve.

Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani - did not serve.
F
ormer Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney - did not serve in the military but did serve the Mormon Church on a 30-month mission to France.

Former Senator Fred Thompson - did not serve.

Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so in 2000? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.

Former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.

Former House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."

Former House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve

Former Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)

Rick Santorum, R-PA, formerly third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)

George Felix Allen, former Republican Senator from Virginia - a supporter of Nixon and the Vietnam war, did not serve. (1)

Former Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.

GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?

VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)

Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State

Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)

Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)

Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.

"B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.

Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments

Congressman Ron Paul - active duty flight surgeon from 1963-65; Air National Guard from 1965-68.

Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php

Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm

Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.

Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986

Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")

Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.


As you see, the list of prominent Republicans who have served pales by the list of Democrats who answered the call to duty.

Nice selective list. Any Democrat of any age in any branch of service active duty or reserve suffices whether or not they saw combat, while only bona fide Republican war heroes get a mention on the other side. Some obvious Republican omissions:

George HW Bush

James Baker

Donald Regan

Howard Baker

Oliver North

I could go on and on, but isn't the existence of the website you pointed to proof enough that liberals have been hounding Republicans who received deferments as "draft dodgers" for long enough that Biden's record is fair game?

I personally couldn't care less about whether or not a politician of any party received a bona fide deferment during the Vietnam war. That deferments were available for college and law school is the fault of the system at the time rather than those who took advantage of it to avoid service in a very dangerous and unpopular war. I'm only posting on Biden's deferments and seeming outright lie about his asthma in order to savor the irony of liberals who rode GW Bush and Cheney mercilessly as supposed "draft dodgers" for receiving deferments and/or a National Guard slot now telling me that, in the case of Joe Biden, the whole issue is irrelevant.

 

[Woofmeister]

Oh, one last point. As of August 31, 2008, Biden's medical records had yet to be released. Considering Biden underwent two surgeries for near-fatal brain aneurysms in 1988, that's rather odd and I don't expect that those records can stay unexamined for very long.

I can't wait to find out whether or not Biden's asthma has somehow cured itself since 1968.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Hey now, getting deferments and draft dodging is only a bad thing if it's an evil republican like Dick Cheney who has no problem sending others to die in an unjust war based on lies.

Fixed

 

[StageLeft]

Funny thing about these criticisms is that we condemn people for doing what was within their legal power to avoid going somewhere for a war that is commonly considered a waste of time and in any case was a hellish activity. Would I have avoided going? You can bet your ass.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Funny thing about these criticisms is that we condemn people for doing what was within their legal power to avoid going somewhere for a war that is commonly considered a waste of time and in any case was a hellish activity. Would I have avoided going? You can bet your ass.

The criticism of Cheney wasn't for avoiding a bullshit war personally it was for starting, supporting and sending others to fight and die in one.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I can think of other things I disagree with Biden over, back in the day, if your family had any clout or if you had enough brains/money to go to college, you got a deferral.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: HomerJS

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Originally posted by: HomerJS

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
The AP has examined Biden's Selective Service records. According to the AP, Biden received five deferments before being disqualified for service due to chronic asthma. For those of you keeping score at home, the five deferments Biden received equal the number that Cheney received.

Strangely, Biden's five deferments and his supposed asthma rate no mention in his autobiography Promises to Keep.

Don't worry though, while McCain was being tortured by the North Vietnamese, Biden was doing his own bit for America--graduating from a second tier law school.

Edit Wait, did I call Syracuse University College of Law a second tier law school? My mistake, it's more like fourth tier.

Shame on you, accusing the military of lying saying Biden has asthma.

You're being sarcastic right? You realize that I'm accusing Biden of lying about his asthma and his draft board (it would not have been the U.S. Army) believing him?

I'm not a selective service expert but I would think they give recruits physicals. Someone with asthma would be easy to identify.

Yes they would, particularly if they were, you know, faking it.

Asthma is something that we can easily diagnose though PFT findings (methacholine challenge), eosinophil counts in the sputum, etc. These tests can?t be faked. Now whether or not Biden has ever had these tests is the question imo. If American men could have just dropped the word "Asthma" during the Vietnam war to avoid service, not many would have fought, right? There must be some sort of proof in the way of test results out there that Biden has asthma. I'm sure someone will dig them up now that he is up for VP.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister
The AP has examined Biden's Selective Service records. According to the AP, Biden received five deferments before being disqualified for service due to chronic asthma. For those of you keeping score at home, the five deferments Biden received equal the number that Cheney received.

Strangely, Biden's five deferments and his supposed asthma rate no mention in his autobiography Promises to Keep.

Don't worry though, while McCain was being tortured by the North Vietnamese, Biden was doing his own bit for America--graduating from a second tier law school.

Edit Wait, did I call Syracuse University College of Law a second tier law school? My mistake, it's more like fourth tier.

You do understand that Chronic Asthma, or basically that condition of any type, is an instant medical disqualification from the military? You cannot get a waiver for it.

I believe it is one of two conditions, along with schizophrenia, that are actually have a congressional ban from military service.

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I can think of other things I disagree with Biden over, back in the day, if your family had any clout or if you had enough brains/money to go to college, you got a deferral.

Dang, this is the second day in a row I wholeheartedly agree with you on an issue. You see, there are people that can think rationally yet still disagree politically.

One of the worst, then happiest, days of my life was the night of my year's draft lottery pick. My roommate's girlfriend told me she thought I was picked #55 (borderline being drafted) but he was #363. He and I got truly wasted that night, and it wasn't till I saw the newspaper much later the next day that I found out I was actually #355.

PS-that list ranking law schools mean very little. Biden went years ago, the ranking was probably different. Secondly any school ranked in the top 100 is hardly "fourth rate" (if so, then McCain is sixth or seventh rate individual because he personally finished so close to the bottom of his Naval Academy class). Thirdly, I know from personal experience that I passed up two of the schools in that top 100 to go to a third one not even on today's list, and I've always felt I had superior training at the school I went to.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Thump553

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
I can think of other things I disagree with Biden over, back in the day, if your family had any clout or if you had enough brains/money to go to college, you got a deferral.

Dang, this is the second day in a row I wholeheartedly agree with you on an issue. You see, there are people that can think rationally yet still disagree politically.

Yeah, I actually voted for Carter, loved him till he lost his mind

 

[palehorse]

I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse
I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

Ah blow it out your as..., more power to him if he was able to lie and get out of fighting in that fucked up war. Now if he had gotten a free ride to college from the Military like McCain did then that'd be different.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: palehorse
I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

Back then, they diagnosed you with asthma if you wheezed in the doctor's office.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

Ah blow it out your as..., more power to him if he was able to lie and get out of fighting in that fucked up war. Now if he had gotten a free ride to college from the Military like McCain did then that'd be different.

I see that you ignored the rest of my post... oh, and I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse
[I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name.

In time of her defense yes that would be cowardly but to refuse to fight for a wrong cause is commendable.
I can assure you that if there was a draft over the last 5 years you would have seen the majority of draft age Americans refusing to serve in Iraq.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Woofmeister

Topic Title: Surprise, surprise, Joe Biden was a draft dodger
Topic Summary: Five Deferments--the same as Cheney

Surprise, surprise! You're blowing smoke out of your ass. Deferments from the draft were legal for a number of reasons so, before you go calling anyone a "draft dodger," you might want save yourself some embarrassment and do your homework.

Strangely, Biden's five deferments and his supposed asthma rate no mention in his autobiography Promises to Keep.

For a start, the reasons for Biden's and Cheyney's deferments were completely different. Despite your bullshit attempt to paint Biden's reason as some kind of lie or dodge, and regardless of what he included in his autobiography, the military had full knowledge of Biden's medical condition at the time:

Deferments, asthma kept Biden out of Vietnam

Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Biden received five student draft deferments during the Vietnam War, the same number of deferments received by Vice President Dick Cheney, and later was disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager.

By RANDALL CHASE

Associated Press Writer
DOVER, Del. ?

Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Biden received five student draft deferments during the Vietnam War, the same number of deferments received by Vice President Dick Cheney, and later was disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager.

Officials with Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama's campaign released Biden's Selective Service records at the request of The Associated Press. Less detailed records were available from a National Archives facility in Philadelphia.

According to the documents, Biden, 65, received several deferments while he was an undergraduate at the University of Delaware and later as a law student at Syracuse University. A month after undergoing a physical exam in April 1968, Biden received a Selective Service classification of 1-Y, meaning he was available for service only in the event of national emergency.

"As a result of a physical exam on April 5, 1968, Joe Biden was classified 1-Y and disqualified from service because of asthma as a teenager," said David Wade, a campaign spokesman.
.
.
(continues)

There is a legitimate reason for excluding those with asthma if it would interfere with their ability to perform their jobs in the military. Biden didn't make that determination. The Selective Service Administration did.

Cheney received four student deferments and a "hardship" deferment:

Vietnam War draft

When Cheney became eligible for the draft, he was a supporter of the Vietnam War but did not serve in the military. Instead, he applied for and received five draft deferments. In 1989, The Washington Post writer, George C. Wilson, interviewed Cheney as the next Secretary of Defense; when asked about his deferments, Cheney reportedly said, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service." Cheney testified during his confirmation hearings in 1989 that he received deferments to finish a college career that lasted six years rather than four, owing to sub par academic performance and the need to work to pay for his education. Initially, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was only taking older men. When he became eligible for the draft, he applied for four deferments in sequence. He applied for his fifth exemption on January 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant. He was granted 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. In January 1967, Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.

Unlike Biden, Cheney wasn't deferred for medical reasons. He just had "other priorities." I don't fault him. I attended the University of California at Berkeley between 1959 and 1961. When I dropped out (and finished college, later), I was prime draft bait, which is why I joined the U.S. Army Reserves for six years which gave me a better chance of a job other than combat grunt. I was trained as a field radio repairman and later became a cook in my unit. When I finished my six months of basic training, I returned to finish college at USC.

That was a true "deferment" in that it kept me from being drafted into active combat, but it didn't let me off the hook. My unit COULD HAVE been activated at any time, and in fact, it WAS activated a few months after my enlistment was up. Good luck and timing were the only reasons I didn't go to Vietnam with them.

If you think Cheney's deferments make him a draft dodger, that's your business. They were legal at the time. I don't think an honest medical deferment qualifies anyone as a draft dodger, and I think your characterization of it as such is completely dishonest. :thumbsdown:

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse
I will only condemn the man if it's ever proven that he lied about having asthma. If he did, then I hope he rots in the pits of hell. If not, then this is as much of a non-issue as it was in 2000 when everyone wrongfully questioned Cheney's and Bush's service, or lackthereof.

There are much bigger concerns at the moment... and, if your goal is to denigrate a politician's character, then you had better come up with something a little more damning, and recent, than this Vietnam-era stuff.

I want to know what the men and women running are all about today.

Ah blow it out your as..., more power to him if he was able to lie and get out of fighting in that fucked up war. Now if he had gotten a free ride to college from the Military like McCain did then that'd be different.

I see that you ignored the rest of my post... oh, and I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: palehorse
I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

Hey Moonie, did you know that McCain was a POW?

 

[StageLeft]

Agree with moonbeam's last post. There is always a somewhat nebulous line between being a coward to not fight when asked and being brave for not fighting when asked.

 

[idiotekniQues]

dems also have their fair share of skeletons in their closet - comparing this to cheney is inherently flawed however

cheney was a die hard advocate of war above and beyond what pretty much anybody other politician was.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: palehorse
I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

Hey Moonie, did you know that McCain was a POW?

Yes, but I can't quite grasp why that especially entitles him to be a hero. One can honor the man for his service and empathize with what he must have gone through as a prisoner, but it wasn't something he did intentionally. I am not, however, familiar with all the facts of his case as there are so many other issues that disqualify any interest I would have in voting for him.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: palehorse
I personally hope that all draft dodgers rot in hell for all eternity -- they were fucking cowards, period.

I don't know of anything more offensive to me than turning your back on service to the nation if/when your country calls your name. So yes, those fucking cowards can rot in hell.

We each have our pet peeves... this would be one of mine. So stow it.

That said, please re-read the rest of my first post and realize that I do not currently place Biden in that category.

If you take that position as an absolute, as it appears you, are doing, you would execute Jews as a German soldier in WW2 because you were ordered. Fucking cowards are those who do what is easier. To go against the tide and refuse to fight an unjust war is what takes courage. Look, even now, such heroes are being condemned by you while all those who went are called heroes even with special Kudos for those who wound up in prison.

Hey Moonie, did you know that McCain was a POW?

Yes, but I can't quite grasp why that especially entitles him to be a hero. One can honor the man for his service and empathize with what he must have gone through as a prisoner, but it wasn't something he did intentionally. I am not, however, familiar with all the facts of his case as there are so many other issues that disqualify any interest I would have in voting for him.

Well there goes my argument for voting for McCain.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Agree with moonbeam's last post. There is always a somewhat nebulous line between being a coward to not fight when asked and being brave for not fighting when asked.

I think there can be a huge difference in what people know about life at the time they are called to battle. One person may have a deep and sophisticated knowledge of the real machinations for power and wealth and or global dominion his or her government may really be fighting for, and the simple person who knows nothing but that his country needs him. Because the evolution, both spiritual and intellectual, between one teenager and another can vary enormously do to circumstance and chance, no real conclusions as to who is or is not a coward or hero can be accurately advanced.

Some kids knew the war if Viet Nam was absurd and some did not. So for some they could see their country was asking them to die for stupidity and some could not. Many more figured it out later when they got there and their officers got fragged.

 

[sportage]

Surprise, surprise, Joe Biden was a draft dodger

Well, under Bush standards, that qualifies Joe for president!

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: sportage

Surprise, surprise, Joe Biden was a draft dodger

Well, under Bush standards, that qualifies Joe for president!

That's quite an admission coming from a Bushwhacko sycophant. It's also meaningless considering how much BS the OP is spewing about the entire topic. I already posted that both Biden's and Cheney's deferments were legal under existing laws.

What you think of their respective reasons is up to you, but if anyone dodged any combat duty, it was your Traitor In Chief when when he was actually in the Air National Guard and he disqualified himself from combat flight by intentionally skipping out on required flight training.

Hmmm... Maybe you're onto something.