• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Surprise. OEMs not just tricking AMD buyers

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
The latest mandatory configurations from Dell's "Premier" for a major influential university:







Let's do the Time Warp again with Apple, too:





At least people can add a second stick of RAM to the Dells (although that won't happen in the vast majority of cases). Good luck prying open those iMacs to put modern storage in them.

This evidence casts some doubt on the single channel RAM conspiracy claim, although it could be coincidental (particularly since APUs are really hampered by it). The secondary point is OEMs tricking people with unbalanced builds and IT people not being smart enough not to fall for it. A plain hard disk with that rest of the tech in that 5K iMac? 5400 RPM laptop drives for desktop builds at the end of 2016? Dumb arrogant IT people (I have words I can't share) are one thing but the people at major corporations should know what a balanced contemporary build is. Therefore, selling unbalanced builds and builds with obsolete parts to people seems to be intentional. At the very least those laptop hard disks should be hybrids.
 
Last edited:

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
4,837
3,457
136
All of future Apple computers will have SSD as standard. APFS will require this.
 

Burpo

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2013
4,221
472
126
" Therefore, selling unbalanced builds and builds with obsolete parts to people seems to be intentional. "

Nothing new there.. been that way forever.. It's called retail sales.
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,460
1,566
96
" Therefore, selling unbalanced builds and builds with obsolete parts to people seems to be intentional. "

Nothing new there.. been that way forever.. It's called retail sales.
Which is why I do my own builds.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
" Therefore, selling unbalanced builds and builds with obsolete parts to people seems to be intentional. "

Nothing new there.. been that way forever.. It's called retail sales.
Retail sales and "premier" sales to IT specialists are two very different things, at least they should be. The problem is when people who do things like say optical mice over roller ball mice, LCD over CRT, and such get mocked while the mockers get promoted.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,865
6,834
136
Yeah that's the rub isn't it? OP is basically taking a shot at people who bitched about the hardware choices in Kaveri and Carrizo laptops.

Problem is that you can get some nicely-appointed OEM systems from Intel if you pay enough or buy from the right vendor (or crap as mentioned in the OP). Or you can build your own when it comes to desktops and the like. With a lappie it isn't so easy, and with AMD laptops . . . you get wall-to-wall crap.

OEMs really are idiots sometimes.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
Yeah that's the rub isn't it? OP is basically taking a shot at people who bitched about the hardware choices in Kaveri and Carrizo laptops.
That wasn't the point of this thread at all. It's evidence that more than just AMD buyers are getting bad builds from OEMs.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,131
629
126
Meh. My workplace computers are way worse. I'd love to have one of those. But the worst at my workplace is we're forced to use 32-bit Windows. 4 GB is hell in 2016 when you're trying to run a bunch of bloated custom software along with Chrome.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
Meh. My workplace computers are way worse. I'd love to have one of those.
When I told people they need to stop buying machines with roller mice instead of optical mice: "Hey, they're new and better than the ones people have."

When I told people they need to stop buying machines with CRTs instead of LCDs: "Hey, they're new and better than the ones people have."

Funny how the industry isn't selling those roller mice and CRTs anymore.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,131
629
126
When I told people they need to stop buying machines with roller mice instead of optical mice: "Hey, they're new and better than the ones people have."

When I told people they need to stop buying machines with CRTs instead of LCDs: "Hey, they're new and better than the ones people have."

Funny how the industry isn't selling those roller mice and CRTs anymore.
Funny you should mention that. I had to scrounge for years to get roller mice, because they were forcing the optical mice on us... but they didn't work on some of the surfaces. It took many years before optical mice would work well on shinier surfaces.

BTW, I've said to our IT people many times that I'd pay for an SSD out of my own pocket if they'd be willing to let me use it instead of their hard drives, but they've always declined, since it doesn't fit their pre-determined setups (which I guess I can understand since they have standard OS install images for those).

Even adding memory was a major problem so what I would actually do would be to install memory anyway and just not tell anyone. This was back in the day when the machines shipped with 2 GB, but adding more memory meant months of delay and added paperwork. Actually for my current machine I managed to scrounge up some extra memory from some discarded machines. So I increased it from 4 to 6 GB, which turned out to be useless because I was running 32-bit Windows 7.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,131
629
126
Use a mouse pad? They make extra-large ones, by the way.
Mouse pads suck.

But that's besides the point. The point is that for many years, laser mice had major problems under certain conditions.

My solution for a while on one machine actually was to use a trackball setup. I sort of was OK with it because it had the advantage of not having to move the mouse all over the desk. It just stayed stationary. Not as nice as a mouse though.

And nowadays desktop trackpads also exist.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,865
6,834
136
That wasn't the point of this thread at all. It's evidence that more than just AMD buyers are getting bad builds from OEMs.
Well okay. But the AMD guys (myself included!) griping about Carrizo machines sort of did have blinders on about the poor hardware in some low-end Intel machines. So even if that wasn't your intent, you easily could have done that anyway.
 

superstition

Platinum Member
Feb 2, 2008
2,219
217
101
For the record I think using single channel RAM with a dual channel APU is obscene.

Anyway, it's not just low-end Intel machines. Consider the following. 6700 i7 chips with discreet GPUs:

 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
7,617
2,486
136
For the record I think using single channel RAM with a dual channel APU is obscene.

Anyway, it's not just low-end Intel machines. Consider the following. 6700 i7 chips with discreet GPUs:
It doesn't even make sense to buy 500GB hard drives nowadays. The price difference from 1TB drive is minimal. But maybe that's just with us.

With big companies it might be different. We only care about specs because we are buying them individually. But with these guys they buy them in bulk. Also marketing must play a big role.

-Why are AMD systems specced in a subpar way? Because marketing sees AMD as a value brand. It makes more sense to sell a high-end Intel system than a high-end AMD one.
-Core i7 6700 with obsolete(500GB) hdds and single channel memory. The device that can have the biggest impact on sales is the processor. With HDDs and Memory you don't even know the brand of the manufacturer!
-Planned obsoletion?
-Price must be very important. The pre-built computer systems are sometimes cheaper than buying individual components and making one ourselves. And they come with warranty and service on top for free! Even if they get volume discounts, it can't be a lot. Who knows what these guys do to keep the prices low as possible so they get higher margins? Perhaps 500GB drives are the ones hard drive manufacturers want to get rid of and ODMs get the biggest discount
 

SpaceBeer

Senior member
Apr 2, 2016
307
100
116
I'm just glad I don't need to buy and use laptop or OEM desktop PC anymore.

PC is just a machine used to do the job, just like any other tool in a workshop, field or kitchen. So they should be configured for the job, such as programming, photo or video design, office tasks, engineering design and calculations, gaming, etc. In my opinion OEM's should bundle all needed software. Or at least recommend it and make deals with software companies for discount. E.g. If you buy our workstation laptop/desktop, you can get 15-20% discount on AutoCAD or Photoshop.

I hate when I see they put low-end dGPU with the same performance as IGP, instead of adding 2nd RAM module. And SSDs are must in laptops nowadays.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
7,617
2,486
136
I hate when I see they put low-end dGPU with the same performance as IGP, instead of adding 2nd RAM module. And SSDs are must in laptops nowadays.
Using a bad dGPU instead of an equivalently performing iGPU is due to marketing and perception of buyers. It is true that all dGPUs have better drivers than Intel iGPUs. Only way they can get out of this is if Intel really gets into the hearts and minds of enthusiast gamers for their graphics.

SSDs still add too much to the price of the laptop. I am pretty sure they also realize having an SSD is the biggest barrier to making it not feel really slow in a few years so people have to buy a new one.

You say they should learn a bit? But how many of us are knowledgeable about computers but don't really care about much else? Cars? Travel Advice? Lighting? Fashion? TV shows?

The unfortunate reality methinks for this reason may ultimately be because this is what happens to a market on the way down. I have to imagine as a company full in the business of selling PCs, the reality that sales are going down every year must create chaos within. Managers in companies in a downtrend start making decisions that further accelerate the trend. It takes someone(or some group) much different to change the course for the better or even just to keep it as is.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,865
6,834
136
It seems like OEMs do this to get rid of crap they have lying around in a warehouse somewhere or that they're under contract to receive from a supplier whether or not they know what to do with it. So yeah, single-DIMM configurations and 5400 rpm HDDs abound.
 

SpaceBeer

Senior member
Apr 2, 2016
307
100
116
Price of ~250 GB SSD is more or less the same as 0,5-1TB HDD. I think most of students or home/office users would rather see faster storage, since they usually don't have need to store so much data. OEMs are selling tablets, netbooks and 2in1 devices with 32 or 64 GB storage to be used for the same tasks as ~500€ laptops. Even high-end tablets like SUrface Pro come with 128 or 256 GB SSD. So I think 250 GB is quite enough for 400-700€ market. And in high-end market (1000+ € laptops), adding 50-100€ more for larger SSD doesn't seem to be a problem. Of course, high-end devices should have better and faster storage, not just larger.

5 years ago, I bought ProBook with i3-2330m, 6 GB of RAM, and 500GB HDD for ~400€. Nowadays for the same price, I can buy laptop with i3-5005U, 4-8 GBs of RAM, and 0,5-1TB HDD. So more or less same performance, just a longer battery life and little bit less weight. Not to mention custom configurations, where choosing tablet with 4 GB instead of 2 GB of RAM will cost you 50€ more, even though price of the RAM itself is ~10-15€ larger, and assembly cost is the same. Similar is with storage.

It seems to me OEMs don't know how or don't want to sell good/balanced products. Sometimes I really want to start configuring and selling my own brand PCs with good customer support. But that would be to much :)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
spikerguy CPUs and Overclocking 4

ASK THE COMMUNITY