Studies show having children sucks, having more children even more so

[StageLeft]

I'm relaxing after spending the day with my kids, so no time to read 6 pages, but does it mention why some parents, despite so "obviously" being less happy with life continue to have more kids? I know many who've had as many kids as they wanted and then as those kids age for whatever reason they decide they want more. You'd think they'd be glad the damn things are almost out of the house, why the hell are they having more (in part it's because it lets them reset and not realize how damn old they are, though!)?

They obviously introduce MANY stresses, though. Some people like to give love to their kids, some don't. The latter unfortunately still often end up having them.

I'm not referring to toys or manisons.

Just a simple 1500sq.ft. house, one car to be shared, and enough left to pay the bills and save a bit. It takes two people working just to live a modest comfortable life these days.

Utter rubbish unless neither of them are well educated and able to make a half decent wage, and I don't mean $100k but it's definitely possible to raise a family even on $50k (single income) unless you want to do it in a big city. I know many single income families who are doing fine and actually probably have less debt than many two income, because the two income don't know what's important in life. I know double income families who have to work to keep up car payments, for example, on new cars they don't really need and you bet your ass their kids don't give a sh*t about. They can buy a new car when they're older, why now? Their kids have one childhood. Why send them off to day care with a $8/hour woman who doesn't give a sh*t about the kid (and they don't) unless you REALLy have to?

Some families do need two incomes, MANY don't. Many of those who don't think they do or don't realize the merits of being around for their kids and raising them themselves instead of into a kid-farm.

 

[StageLeft]

My daughter's my best friend. She's been a lot of fun. People get stressed from kids because they're selfish. women especially. When you have a kid, someone should be staying home with it. It doesn't have to be the woman, but that's the traditional role. Women moving into the work force is the worst thing that's happened to western society.

How very old fashioned of you. But in actual fact as you can guess by my other post I agree it's been overall very destructive to the family unit and the lives of children. This perspective is a luxury for me: my wife is a nurse and can pick her hours. Works part-time and we send our kids away no more than one day/week to friends who have kids of the same age. She could work more, though. After our first kid she tried it and it sucked. We checked out a few day cares and felt sick to our stomaches. It didn't take long to question what do we have to do to not have to use one of these? Because these places are loud, staffed by people who are paid crap, and the kids spend a huge portion of their childhood raised by some stranger. Some are worse than others, obviously.

But nobody will care for your kids like you do. So maybe you will have to drive an older car or put up with old furniture because sometimes the decision really is that pedestrian; a bunch of stupid little fiscal greedy mistakes combine to require a second income and then you've got your credit card that paid for useless crap and your scion is shuttled off to spend the day with a college drop out who can't fvcking wait until 5:00 because today is payday and she is going to get sh*tfaced if it's the last thing she does.

 

[StageLeft]

Yes.

Mortgage: $1291
Student Loans: $679
Phone, cell, cable, internet, electric, propane: $529
Car: $534
Auto, life, disability insurance: $198
Groceries: $400
Gas: $240
Day care: $866

Even without breaking apart that $529 or pointing out that eventually your student loans will be paid off, I can tell clearly that the $534 car is far more than you need. Depending on timing people in your circumstance (pre-kid) could have spent some time stockpiling on a double income no kids to get some of the more egregious debt (student) paid off.

I make $74k. I would maybe able to just barely pay the bills alone. No eating out, no shopping, no saving.

that is plenty of money to raise a family on. You are simply doing it wrong. I know this because I know people who are doing it on that income or even less and are hardly struggling.

And $534 isn't alot for a new car that isn't an econobox these days. All it is, is a plain four cylinder Outback with a warranty. We make up for it by only having the one car, and commuting together. Go look up what a loan is for a $27k car. A loan for the cars you pointed out would be closer to $1k per month

You can buy a sh*t load of used cars with plenty of factory warranty left for mid teens. Buying new is a financially poor decision in almost all cases, always has been and will be. In 2005 I spent $15,800 on a 2004 minivan with 15k miles and a ton of factory warranty (powertrain to 100k). You could have done that, there are plenty such vehicles. There is a place by us (since you're in Syracuse area) that sells a ford fusion with 10-15k miles for like $12k, still tons of warranty left!

and $102 for the cell phones (with three people on a family plan and a 20% corporate discount).

Crazy. One of the families I know on little more than one income (five kids, large house) has a couple of those cheap phones that you pay very little for. So they can't sit on the phone in traffic and text who cares, $100/month on cells is a lot if you're pretending to be struggling to make it without two incomes.

Here is your new budget:
Mortgage: $1291
Student Loans: $679
Phone, cell, cable, internet, electric, propane: $479 (~$50 saved by dropping the "mainstream" cell phones)
Car: $300 (~$15k car no money down, low miles second-hand)
Auto, life, disability insurance: $198
Groceries: $400
Gas: $240
TOTAL $3593

You said you gross $74k/year. You are thus netting in NY state approximately $4000/month, so now you even have $400/month savings. When your student loans are paid off you're now *saving* $1000 every freaking month and that's on a single salary. A decent salary but not stratospheric at all.

So surely you can see that your income alone in a place like western NY has no problems whatsoever raising a family.

--

I don't want to give any wrong impressions above. Kids will knock the sh*t out of your incomes and money-wise quality of life. For those that prioritize that highly the kids obviously will be fighting an uphill battle. Best case you've got day care as a new expense, worse case partial or total loss of income. If your wife is making $50k and she takes just 6 months off that's $20k literally out of your pockets right there. And then back to work you've got day care. And if she doesn't well that Camaro SS may have to wait a while, like 20 years. What amazes me now is double income no kid couples who actually have financial problems, like holy fvck people you fail at life epically. Also, if you want to save for college that costs, too. Restaurants you have another mouth to feed. Airplanes, another seat. It impacts your car decisions, too. House? Make sure the school zone doesn't suck. The simplicity of a working man and wife with no dependents is definitely not without its merits. I have not yet regretted having kids, though and don't anticipate regretting it

 

[ShawnD1]

does it mention why some parents, despite so "obviously" being less happy with life continue to have more kids? I know many who've had as many kids as they wanted and then as those kids age for whatever reason they decide they want more. You'd think they'd be glad the damn things are almost out of the house, why the hell are they having more (in part it's because it lets them reset and not realize how damn old they are, though!)?

I'll be a bit like Jesus for a second here and give you a story to make a point. I was watching this one show called Intervention where a soldier came back from Iraq with a clear case of post traumatic stress disorder (shell shock). He had become a hardcore alcoholic because alcohol was his coping mechanism. With such a clear diagnosis and a straight forward solution, they still fucked around. Rather than focus on the real issue at hand (shell shock), they focused on the symptoms of the problem (alcohol).
The lesson here is that humans are profoundly stupid. They will knowingly hurt themselves and those around them just because they don't want to admit a problem exists. When faced the possibility of admitting their marriage is a total sham and the husband is actually a gay minister, have another kid and distract yourself for another 18 years

/incoherent ranting

 

[coloumb]

The unhappiness/stressful is a direct result of the freedom you lose when children enter the picture. From birth to about 5 years old - you have to damn near give 100% of your time to your child[ren]. Hobbies, sleep, going out [whenever you feel like it], etc pretty much disappear or are reduced significantly. Weekends are no longer "me" time - it's THEM time no matter what. When the 2nd+ child[ren] enter the picture - that adds a significant chunk of stress - It's a HUGE emotional and financial drain.

I love my kids - but I honestly can not wait until they are OUT of the house. I want my god damn freedom back...

 

[Wag]

you got it all wrong. the wife is to be makeing you a sammich. the kids are to mow the yard and change the channel (well before remotes were invented)

Sorry, your priorities are all screwed. The wife is for sex0r, the kids make the sammich (simultaneously or otherwise).

 

[pcgeek11]

Unless you have a kick ass job it's almost impossible for one job to raise a family and have a decent standard of living.

This is the furthest thing from the truth I have seen posted yet in this thread. You just have to have more than three brain cells that can communicate with one another in order to figure out the finances.

It isn't hard, people do it all the time. My grandparents did, My parents did, my wife and I did.... We didn't have a new car, we didn't purchase a house we couldn't afford, We didn't have cell phones ( never mind, nobody had cell phones then ), we only had Basic Cable TV etc... But we did have fun. Oh but we were not spoiled rotten, like kids are today. That is probably the problem in a nutshell.

 

[pcgeek11]

Having kids means you'll be denied a huge number of experiences though (I love to travel, see the world, have adventures) and IMO losing those opportunities is the biggest drawback to reproducing.

Not having kid(s) means you'll be denied a huge number of experiences also.

 

[lxskllr]

Not having kid(s) means you'll be denied a huge number of experiences also.

Aside from that, kids travel too. My favorite traveling companion's my daughter. It's fun "seeing" things through fresh eyes.

 

[pcgeek11]

Aside from that, kids travel too. My favorite traveling companion's my daughter. It's fun "seeing" things through fresh eyes.

Same goes for my son. I was in the Navy when he was small and we travelled a lot. He was more travelled by the age of 10 than most people when they reach 60.

I don't understand why so many in this thread thinks that kids deduct from a family. When in all honesty it isn't a real family until you you have at least one kid. Before that it is just two people shacking up and bumping uglies.


fam·i·ly   /ˈfæməli, ˈfæmli/ Show Spelled [fam-uh-lee, fam-lee] Show IPA noun, plural -lies, adjective
–noun
1. a. a basic social unit consisting of parents and their children, considered as a group, whether dwelling together or not: the traditional family.
b. a social unit consisting of one or more adults together with the children they care for: a single-parent.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

The wife and I just had our first almost 2 weeks ago, and so far we love it. We have the attitude that when we are old, we want to have family around, our siblings are all older, so we don't want to be elderly and have no immediate family around. We are planning on having a 2nd in a couple of years.

IMO, the only thing that is going to be negative about raising a child is daycare. At over $1k/month for 1 child, it is such a ripoff. I won't mind paying for college, since they will be getting something out of it, but daycare costs suck. I also hate the fact that even if the kid isn't there, or if the daycare center is closed for some reason (holiday), you still have to pay. If I was making less money, I would just quit my job and save the daycare money (especially when we have 2 kids in daycare), but it isn't worth it now.

I don't understand people who have kids to just throw them in daycare all day. Do your child a favor and figure out a way for one of you to stay home.

 

[Skeeedunt]

I don't have or ever want kids. I like my toys and not being broke too much. I don't care about family reunions or growing old and lonely etc..

People tied down with kids always try to convince you how great it is. Sure...

This is basically how I feel right now. I figure I'll get bored eventually though...

each successive child produces diminishing returns.

For the record, I also enjoyed this.

 

[manimal]

Culturally families are more isolated right now. 20-30 years ago extended families did more together. This experience varies geographically as well. Some cultures revere the old and actively involve them throughout their lives but some cultures just send them away to retirement homes to die.

Withing the US the familial experience varies greatly geographically as well. I tried raising kids in NYC and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. We now live in the midwest and we can get by with one income but after having triplets seven months ago all bets are off....

OP The amount of stress on new parents is staggering. While science has made the process easier in the sense that more children survive and have productive lives this is also a double edged sword. We had some early trouble in our triplet pregnancy and the level of stress associated with those problems was severe. Doctors inform you of every possible outcome and most of them scare the crap out of you.

Colic, premature babies, and early childhood issues add another layer of stress that is hard to describe if you have not experienced it. Parents have left kids in car seats in garages in 100 degree heat, accidental drops, shaken baby syndrome etc...

 

[Zebo]

I make $74k. I would maybe able to just barely pay the bills alone. No eating out, no shopping, no saving.

LOLZ.

http://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Ne.../dp/0671015206

 

[Zebo]

I'll be a bit like Jesus for a second here and give you a story to make a point. I was watching this one show called Intervention where a soldier came back from Iraq with a clear case of post traumatic stress disorder (shell shock). He had become a hardcore alcoholic because alcohol was his coping mechanism. With such a clear diagnosis and a straight forward solution, they still fucked around. Rather than focus on the real issue at hand (shell shock), they focused on the symptoms of the problem (alcohol).
The lesson here is that humans are profoundly stupid. They will knowingly hurt themselves and those around them just because they don't want to admit a problem exists. When faced the possibility of admitting their marriage is a total sham and the husband is actually a gay minister, have another kid and distract yourself for another 18 years

/incoherent ranting

No they are not stupid, they don't want to recognize PTSD is a legit disability because it's easy to fake a draw lifetime disability benefits from so they are ignoring it. Support our troops?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Not having kid(s) means you'll be denied a huge number of experiences also.

True, but some of us prefer the other experiences over having kids. I've had the opportunity to travel all over the world and there are many places that I still need to see and many experiences for me to live.

There are still many in society with the Stone Age mentality that everyone should have kids (or, in fact, that it is everyone's *duty* to have kids if they're able). Believe it or not, there was a thread here a few years ago about kids and one guy actually said that if you're able to have kids, it is your duty to have them and if you don't, you're "selfish." That, of course, is BS.

What it boils down to is that not everyone needs kids to be happy. If you want kids and have them, great. You live life the way you want and those of us who wish to remain childless will live our lives the way we want

 

[nick1985]

On my way home from dinner last night, I saw a minivan with a shitload of family stickers on it.

IE:

Except this one had a couple more kids

I passed the van and saw some defeated looking dad driving home...lol what a poor fucker

 

[SP33Demon]

I don't care what anyone says, there's nothing better than a family get together at Thanksgiving and Christmas time. Nothing in the world will emulate that feeling for people who don't have kids (except maybe them going home to see their own parents on the holidays). I wouldn't trade those memories for anything.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I don't care what anyone says, there's nothing better than a family get together at Thanksgiving and Christmas time. Nothing in the world will emulate that feeling for people who don't have kids (except maybe them going home to see their own parents on the holidays). I wouldn't trade those memories for anything.

Nieces, nephews, and cousins can fill that void for us, and the beauty is that we don't have to take them home with us when the event is over.

 

[ichy]

Not having kid(s) means you'll be denied a huge number of experiences also.

Changing diapers, PTA meetings, doctor's visits, cleaning puke. What pure, unadulterated joy.

 

[ichy]

On my way home from dinner last night, I saw a minivan with a shitload of family stickers on it.

Dear god I hate those stickers. I want to get an adult male sticker along with three headstone stickers to go with it. Buahaha!

 

[ShawnD1]

I passed the van and saw some defeated looking dad driving home...lol what a poor fucker

Men driving minivans always look extremely angry and they drive super fast. I would too.

 

[ichy]

Men driving minivans always look extremely angry and they drive super fast. I would too.

In some ways though a minivan is the manliest car in the world. It proves that you nailed at least one woman...

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Changing diapers, PTA meetings, doctor's visits, cleaning puke. What pure, unadulterated joy.

You forgot other things, like when the kids accidentally hit/throw a baseball through a neighbor's window. Back when I was a kid, your parent would talk to the neighbor and pay to get it fixed. Nowadays, it would probably involve lawsuits and lawyers.D:

 

[IndyColtsFan]

In some ways though a minivan is the manliest car in the world. It proves that you nailed at least one woman...

That is a sig-worthy quote if I ever saw one.