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Students punished for defending themselves against burglar

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And it seems I was right along with spidey on this legal issue.... guns were stolen by the university and reported as such. A little legal pressure and they are returned. A bit more and the University will wish they had shoved the issue under the rug.

As for my other discussion here with someone else when it comes to signing away rights, liabilities, and case law...

City of Santa Barbara et al. v. Superior Court
 
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I wonder if the SPD will charge them with filing a false police report?

The guns weren't STOLEN...they were confiscated...whether that's legal or not is above my pay grade.

I DO think that returning them with the provision that they have to be kept off campus is the right decision.
 
I wonder if the SPD will charge them with filing a false police report?

The guns weren't STOLEN...they were confiscated...whether that's legal or not is above my pay grade.

I DO think that returning them with the provision that they have to be kept off campus is the right decision.

At this point it's up to the DA to decide if they wish to prosecute for stolen property as the complaint was made and the charges filed by affidavit from that article. That's for criminal liability. As far as civil liability nothing is stopping the guys from going down that route still as far as I know.
 
And it seems I was right along with spidey on this legal issue.... guns were stolen by the university and reported as such. A little legal pressure and they are returned. A bit more and the University will wish they had shoved the issue under the rug.

As for my other discussion here with someone else when it comes to signing away rights, liabilities, and case law...

City of Santa Barbara et al. v. Superior Court

From your link:

"The only restriction was that the students had to move the weapons off campus to a non-university residence which would be in compliance with the weapons policy."

That restriction meaning being expelled from the university.

Sounds reasonable to me.
 
From your link:

"The only restriction was that the students had to move the weapons off campus to a non-university residence which would be in compliance with the weapons policy."

That restriction meaning being expelled from the university.

Sounds reasonable to me.

They had their guns stolen from them and filed charges. The university gave them back their guns. They are on "probation" now officially and are still allowed to be students there so long as they aren't caught with a weapon again on University property. The thing is, the guys may still have a nice fat lawsuit they can file for gross negligence of the University for providing proper security and protection if the students aren't allowed to arm themselves for their own protection. It's a big can-o-worms there when you make people sign away their ability to defend themselves. If you do that, you must be providing adequate and reasonable protection instead. If not, it opens up a massive legal problem for the University.
 
They had their guns stolen from them and filed charges. The university gave them back their guns.

No. They had their firearms impounded and were always free to retrieve the firearms and take them off-campus. From the link:

McIntosh said that they did not know they could pick them up immediately
This makes it clear that the students could have retrieved the firearms even before they reported the firearms as stolen, but did not due to a failure on the students' part to actually be aware of the school's policy. Political pressure had nothing to do with it.

Honestly, there's a lot of inexcusable ignorance on the students' parts in this whole ordeal.

The thing is, the guys may still have a nice fat lawsuit they can file for gross negligence of the University for providing proper security and protection if the students aren't allowed to arm themselves for their own protection.

This is would be funny if it weren't for the fact that so many people believe it.

Are you aware of just how high a bar "gross negligence" is in the eyes of the law? To qualify for "gross negligence" the university would basically have to be handing out weapons and keys to student residences to known felons. (This is a mild exaggeration, but it gets the point across.) Simply failing to prevent every single possible attack on a student isn't even garden-variety negligence, let alone "gross negligence." Frankly, as long as there's a university police department, any lawsuit based on this premise would be a non-starter that would likely not even survive a motion to dismiss.

Considering that even the police have no duty to protect individual members of society (see generally, Warren v. District of Columbia, DeShaney v. Winnebago County, and Castle Rock v. Gonzales), it's not reasonable to assume that the university could be held liable for failing to prevent all crime.

ZV
 
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I wonder if the SPD will charge them with filing a false police report?

The guns weren't STOLEN...they were confiscated...whether that's legal or not is above my pay grade.

I DO think that returning them with the provision that they have to be kept off campus is the right decision.

If your firearms are "confiscated" by someone who does not have the legal authority to take them, then they're stolen.
 
No. They had their firearms impounded and were always free to retrieve the firearms and take them off-campus. From the link:

This makes it clear that the students could have retrieved the firearms even before they reported the firearms as stolen, but did not due to a failure on the students' part to actually be aware of the school's policy. Political pressure had nothing to do with it.

Honestly, there's a lot of inexcusable ignorance on the students' parts in this whole ordeal.



This is would be funny if it weren't for the fact that so many people believe it.

Are you aware of just how high a bar "gross negligence" is in the eyes of the law? To qualify for "gross negligence" the university would basically have to be handing out weapons and keys to student residences to known felons. (This is a mild exaggeration, but it gets the point across.) Simply failing to prevent every single possible attack on a student isn't even garden-variety negligence, let alone "gross negligence." Frankly, as long as there's a university police department, any lawsuit based on this premise would be a non-starter that would likely not even survive a motion to dismiss.

Considering that even the police have no duty to protect individual members of society (see generally, Warren v. District of Columbia, DeShaney v. Winnebago County, and Castle Rock v. Gonzales), it's not reasonable to assume that the university could be held liable for failing to prevent all crime.

ZV

Actually, the property was not University owned. It was an apartment complex the University was leasing on the students behalf. So... not private property of the University.

As far as the legal matter of the guns being "impounded" vs stolen we'll soon see eh?
 
Actually, the property was not University owned. It was an apartment complex the University was leasing on the students behalf. So... not private property of the University.

Again, a distinction without a difference. The University was the leaseholder and the students were merely sublessees (or mere licensees) and were still bound by the terms of their agreement with the property's actual lessee.

As far as the legal matter of the guns being "impounded" vs stolen we'll soon see eh?

Short of a DA and trial court doing something wildly against pretty much all legal precedent (which would just get them benchslaped on appeal), the allegations of theft aren't going anywhere. IMO it would be borderline malpractice for an attorney to advise the students to push for any sort of court action.

ZV
 
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Again, a distinction without a difference. The University was the leaseholder and the students were merely sublessees (or mere licensees) and were still bound by the terms of their agreement with the property's actual lessee.



Short of a DA and trial court doing something wildly against pretty much all legal precedent (which would just get them benchslaped on appeal), the allegations of theft aren't going anywhere. IMO it would be borderline malpractice for an attorney to advise the students to push for any sort of court action.

ZV

Again, that no gun policy is put in place under the assumption that the University is responsible with the safety and well being of the students upon their property within reason. On campus and in dorms that well being is provided by campus security. So long as the on campus security is acting in a manner according to their job description and duties then if this had happened in the dorms then the University would be still considered trying to be responsible even if someone bad sneaked on to campus.

Since this is in an off location apartment that is NOT being secured by the University, they are being grossly negligent in providing for the safety and well being of the students there by not allowing the students adequate means of self protection from incidents like this.

Second, we don't know if there is an "impound" rule in the contract at all at this point. Third, we don't know how the law regarding contracts which deal with signing away certain rights have to be administered and if they were done correctly. I say this because I know that at sporting events I been apart of previously, that they always had to have a written sign contract by the participants and that there was also an oral agreement with witnesses there where it was specifically pointed out that participation may result in injury or death and that by being a participant you wouldn't seek legal action against the those holding the event. That all liability is taken upon the participant for what happens at the event. That is how the law works here.

Even with that, I made a case study link above to how even that is not iron clad in some place and for various reasons. Like what I posted above with the swimming pool drowning incident in California.

I'm just saying you keep thinking all the laws are the same everywhere and I keep telling you they are not.
 
Since this is in an off location apartment that is NOT being secured by the University, they are being grossly negligent in providing for the safety and well being of the students there by not allowing the students adequate means of self protection from incidents like this.

Negligence is defined at common law and under none of the several traditions in play in US jurisprudence today would this scenario be considered to constitute "gross negligence."

I don't think you have a full understanding of the way that common law has evolved. There is a LOT more to law than local and state statutes and tort concepts like "gross negligence" are largely undefined by statutes and do not vary significantly across jurisdictions.

Second, we don't know if there is an "impound" rule in the contract at all at this point.

It is almost inconceivable that there is not some provision to the effect that the university has the right to confiscate items brought onto campus in violation of its policies. The omission of such a provision would almost amount to malpractice on the part of the University's attorney.

We can play around with hypothetical worlds where grass is purple and the sky is brown but that doesn't really matter for the real world.

Third, we don't know how the law regarding contracts which deal with signing away certain rights have to be administered and if they were done correctly.

The common law requirements for the formation of a contract are shared by all 50 US states. While there are minor variations in small details (e.g. the specific analysis for how to interpret choice of law provisions and other minutiae), the requirements I listed earlier are universal within US law.

I say this because I know that at sporting events I been apart of previously, that they always had to have a written sign contract by the participants and that there was also an oral agreement with witnesses there where it was specifically pointed out that participation may result in injury or death and that by being a participant you wouldn't seek legal action against the those holding the event. That all liability is taken upon the participant for what happens at the event. That is how the law works here.

Even with that, I made a case study link above to how even that is not iron clad in some place and for various reasons. Like what I posted above with the swimming pool drowning incident in California.

Assumption of risk and inherently dangerous activities are entirely different areas of the law and don't touch upon anything in play here. I didn't mention them for the same reason that I didn't mention traffic laws. They're not relevant here.

Also, the case you mention is not on point. The waiver in question released the pool operator from "ordinary negligence" but was silent regarding release from "gross negligence." Additionally, while the case does mention the general public policy rule that contracts purporting to release a party from even minimal care, this is a common-law principle that is present in all 50 US states. The reason it's different from the sporting events you note is because this case involved care given to developmentally disabled individuals at a summer camp designed to provide services to such developmentally disabled individuals. There's not a court in the country that would allow a contract to remove all duty of care in that scenario.

The waivers you cite are not operating under different law, but rather under different circumstances. Even when exercising ordinary care (i.e. no negligence at all), persons participating in (and viewing) certain sporting events are susceptible to injury. A classic example is a spectator at a baseball game being hit by a foul ball. Additionally, if the people in the situations you have experienced could show gross negligence, the waivers would likely be unenforceable.

However, as I've already pointed out, "gross negligence" is a technical term with a very specific legal definition. The scenario you posit with the university would not fall within its meaning.

To quote from Black's (emphasis mine):

Gross negligence consists of a conscious and voluntary act or omission which is likely to result in grave injury when in the face of clear and present danger of which the alleged tortfeasor is aware.

The potential that an apartment may, at some unknowable time in the future, be broken into is not a "clear and present danger" and I have a better chance of getting Alyson Hannigan to divorce her husband and marry me than you do of convincing a court that, as a matter of law, a prohibition on the ownership of firearms is "likely" to result in "grave injury." (In legal terms, "likely" means more than a 50% probability of something occurring.)

Note that none of this deals with the waiver of constitutional rights, but is merely a discussion on the duty of care, which is a concept that is not even tangentially mentioned in the Constitution and is really just a matter of common practice carried over from pre-colonial British law.

I'm just saying you keep thinking all the laws are the same everywhere and I keep telling you they are not.

You clearly don't understand the difference between common law concepts shared among all states and local statutory provisions.

It may also be worth noting that I practice in Washington State.

ZV
 
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Yes and no? You can do that for a house rental, but not for say a open to the public business.

But yes, I have been turned down from rental agreements for various reasons. A common one is that I was single or too young or I was in the military at the time. Many home owners that rent out their houses tend to only want to rent out to stable families. It is also their right to choose who they can and can't rent their personal property out to.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/discrimination.shtml
Discrimination of that type wouldn't be legal in California, and I'd suspect in most states based on at least age and familial status being a federally protected class...
I would hope the landlords didn't outright give you those reasons, and that those are assumptions made by you.

There are a few exceptions, one of them being if you're renting a room (exceptions may vary by location):
Limited exceptions for single rooms and roommates

If the owner of an owner-occupied, single-family home rents out a room in the home to a roomer or a boarder, and there are no other roomers or boarders living in the household, the owner is not subject to the restrictions listed under "Examples of unlawful discrimination".

However, the owner cannot make oral or written statements, or use notices or advertisements which indicate any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, ancestry, familial status, source of income, or disability.47 Further, the owner cannot discriminate on the basis of medical condition or age.48

A person in a single-family dwelling who advertises for a roommate may express a preference on the basis of gender, if living areas (such as the kitchen, living room, or bathroom) will be shared by the roommate.49

and the fair housing act's anti-discrimination does apply to single family residences used as rentals
http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/fairhousingfirst/faq/view_all.cfm
Although the Fair Housing Act's design and construction requirements may not apply to detached single-family homes, the Fair Housing Act's other provisions, such as nondiscrimination in sales, rental, or financing practices, do apply.
 
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Shitty situation but shouldn't be punished for this if the guns registered properly and they saved there lives and got a convict off the street.
 
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